Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[mrcaptainpants]

Lets draw an example here, since his POV was similar to mine.

 

I understand your point of view. I also think you've been completely clear about what you want and why you want it. You never claimed that you only wanted metrics to improve your own performance, and though we may fundamentally disagree, at least I know exactly where we disagree.

 

However, I am less clear about the stance of the poster I was responding to, who seems to be asking for access to other people's performance numbers on the basis of only wanting to improve his own performance. I was asking for clarification in case I simply have misunderstood his position.

 

As for your position, Eschleepy,

 

TLDR: Casuals and Raiders will never get along....

 

I fear you are correct. Although there may be some compromises that could be made on both sides of the fence. I, personally, would be willing to compromise on my basic "Its none of your darn business" position if not everyone and their protocol droids had access to these metrics. If it was restricted to guild Leaders and perhaps party or raid leaders and could not be posted in chat for all to see, then it would enable problem performers to be addressed tactfully without a mob mentality behind it.

 

I actually don't so much have a problem with someone saying "Hey, as guild leader I have to let you know your dps output was well below the average expected metric just now. Was there something going on that may have caused this? Here are some sources you might consult to help you improve..."

 

I definitely have a problem with:

 

Player A: OMG, healer you suck!

Player B: I know, look at the recount score! Learn 2 play, noob!

Player C: LMAO! ***? Are you new???

Player D: I have a one-armed alt that can do better than that!

 

...and so on. [EDIT: If I wanted that, I'd play Wow.]

 

Metrics in the hands of responsible people who can tactfully address performance issues is okay.

 

But for everyone in the game to think they have to right to review every other player's performance and do so in the most rude and public manner possible? NOT okay.

Edited February 12, 2012 by mrcaptainpants

[Eschleepy]

I definitely think you are right. The 'responsible' part is where the wheels fall off. But I would be in total agreement if this were a feature only available to guilds and guilds could determine who could have access to such info. Similar to how one person can master loot. Have it so one person can run group wide logs and then give everyone their own personal logs. I would say just the GM but we have a guild with 3 8 man groups running so that wouldnt work. But just have an option so the raid leader could run it within the run. That way guilds can trim the fat and people who pug can see numbers and improve on their own without having your example of "OMG *** NUB!" happen. Cause it does happen and its not right. But kids will be kids.

 

It would need some tweaks and some work but I think even a compromise like that would be amazing for both sides and work very well.

[mrcaptainpants]

It would need some tweaks and some work but I think even a compromise like that would be amazing for both sides and work very well.

 

Agreed. I think what this discussion is really about is: how do we match up players with other players who have similar objectives?

 

As others have already stated, there is nothing wrong with wanting to win. And if we can keep all the really competitive people in one group and all the people who just like to play for funsies in another, well...everyone sorta wins.

[GOYAFIDO]

Goyafido, you keep saying that you just want these tools for analysis to better yourself. Okay, fine, great, and I'm in total support of personal damage meters.

 

But you also say:

 

 

 

Here's where I'm confused. The above statement seems to imply that you feel that being able to see another player's numbers IS your business if you ARE grouped with them.

 

So which is it? You only want these tools to better yourself? Or you want them because you want to access other people's numbers in order to evaluate their performance?

 

Please note that I have not personally attacked you in any way. I have not insulted you. I haven't even placed a value judgement here. So if you choose to reply, please do so in a civil, non-insulting manner, as I have taken great pains to try to craft this response in neutral tones.

 

I'm only asking you to clarify your position, and if in fact you do want these tools to measure other people's peformance, then please at least acknowledge that you aren't asking for these tools just to better yourself.

 

Try and make things simple and people still want a fight couched as a "friendly" inquiry worded as "I'm just askin'" (only I 'm not because I think I caught you out on something contradictory and I want to prove it...) It's like saying "your dps kinda sucks, just sayin" which again is a reminder of why you and so many people like you in this thread are treating people who want to play the game differently than you in EXACTLY the same way as you say you HATE being treated and for the same reasons.

 

You are just one of many people on the same side squawking the same thing over and over again "Why are you other people so selfish? what about me and my needs and my feelings? You can't tell me how to play my game!"

 

1.) I want my metrics to improve myself.

 

2.) I want other peoples metrics while grouping with them to either help them improve if they really are a boat anchor or to get away from them if they are a boat anchor and really don't care.

 

I can't dumb it down any more for you.

 

As for you never insulting me in any way, you can weasel out of directing it at me personally but you did direct your insults and demeaning attitude at players like me:

 

"Digital things. Pretend things. Play things. Big deal. Wow, what an accomplishment..."

 

"Because, winning -- in a VIDEO GAME -- isn't important..."

 

No, not a single value judgement or not-so-veiled insult there...

 

You come across as this:

 

"It's just a game, it's not important. Why do you want to accomplish anything in it, it's not like it's real life, in fact you have no life and should get a life if you actually want to accomplish anything in this game."

 

"Gee I hate when people tell me how I should be playing my game and speak to me in an insulting and demeaning manner."

 

This is why I once again encourage you to go find a mirror and familiarize yourself with that type of person you SAY you dislike.

Edited February 12, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[mrcaptainpants]

Try and make things simple and people still want a fight couched as a "friendly" inquiry worded as "I'm just askin'" (only I 'm not because I think I caught you out on something contradictory and I want to prove it...) It's like saying "your dps kinda sucks, just sayin" which again is a reminder of why you and so many people like you in this thread are treating people who want to play the game differently than you in EXACTLY the same way as you say you HATE being treated and for the same reasons.

 

You are just one of many people on the same side squawking the same thing over and over again "Why are you other people so selfish? what about me and my needs and my feelings? You can't tell me how to play my game!"

 

1.) I want my metrics to improve myself.

 

2.) I want other peoples metrics while grouping with them to either help them improve if they really are a boat anchor or to get away from them if they are a boat anchor and really don't care.

 

I can't dumb it down any more for you.

 

As for you never insulting me in any way, you can weasel out of directing it at me personally but you did direct your insults and demeaning attitude at players like me:

 

 

 

 

 

No, not a single value judgement or not-so-veiled insult there...

 

You come across as this:

 

"It's just a game, it's not important. Why do you want to accomplish anything in it, it's not like it's real life, in fact you have no life and should get a life if you actually want to accomplish anything in this game."

 

"Gee I hate when people tell me how I should be playing my game and speak to me in an insulting and demeaning manner."

 

This is why I once again encourage you to go find a mirror and familiarize yourself with that type of person you SAY you dislike.

 

Oh, for pete's sake.

 

That's exactly the sort of response I expected. Must you take everything so entirely personally? Read my posts. I'm not judging you. Clearly this isn't a matter of one side being right and the other being wrong. Its a difference of philosophy, that is ALL, and its one where I think some compromises could be made to make both sides happy.

 

Have you noticed how Eschleepy and I have managed to have a friendly and productive exchange despite the fact that you and he are pretty much on the same side of the issue? Eschleepy has flat-out SAID he wants to see other people's numbers, and you don't see me going on about what a horrible person he is. So kindly stop making me out to be some kind of nefarious evil person with a thousand ulterior motives. Good lord.

 

I asked you to clarify your position and went out of my way not to appear snarky while doing it. Its called being polite.

 

In any case, I am now clear on your position. You do not simply want these metrics in order to better yourself. You want them so that you can monitor other players' peformance. That doesn't make you a bad person, and I was never claiming it did. All I wanted was for you to admit that, if that was indeed the case. Which it was.

 

End of story. And its also the end of my attempt to talk to you. If you're determined to take offense no matter what I say or how carefully I try to say it, there's no point.

[GOYAFIDO]

Oh, for pete's sake.

 

That's exactly the sort of response I expected.

 

Aah yes more of your kind friendly words.

 

I am not offended by you personally. I am not offended by you at all. I just wanted to point out that you and people like you say they don't want to be treated a certain way and then do the same thing to other people:

 

Oh, for pete's sake.

 

That's exactly the sort of response I expected.

 

More judgement:

 

Digital things. Pretend things. Play things. Big deal. Wow, what an accomplishment...

 

Because, winning -- in a VIDEO GAME -- isn't important...

 

and even more judgement:

 

Have you noticed how Eschleepy and I have managed to have a friendly and productive exchange despite the fact that you and he are pretty much on the same side of the issue? Eschleepy has flat-out SAID he wants to see other people's numbers, and you don't see me going on about what a horrible person he is. So kindly stop making me out to be some kind of nefarious evil person with a thousand ulterior motives. Good lord.

 

You never said the above to Eschleepy, you said them to me. Either way, your conversation with Eschleepy only indicates that you CAN have a civil conversation. The above proves you won't always. No one said you were nefarious. I said you were and are hyprocritical.

 

Read my posts I have never disagreed about compromise mostly what I have done is speak to the extremely selfish emotional energy that is going into denying recount rather than compromising. Up until and after your judgement I have been quite civil to everyone else.

 

And as I said in my post your goal in questioning me was:

 

All I wanted was for you to admit that, if that was indeed the case.

 

Not clarify but admit as if I had done something wrong.

 

In any event again all I am trying to say is that you and others like you say they want to be treated a certain way and then turn around and treat others the way they say they don't like being treated which weakens an already emotional position about recount:cool:

 

But yes time to move on...

 

Edited for overthetopness...

Edited February 12, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[TheSkate]

I think you have been feeling defensive and regurgitating this position for so long that you fail to see that YOU sound EXACTLY like those players you dislike.

 

You call them pathetic elitists and basically say "Good players just know good players and good players don't need meters" and demean players who like and use meters.

 

A name-calling elitist calling other people elitist and demeaning their play preferences. Who'd a thunk it in an MMO, huh?

 

Go look in the mirror. Pot meet kettle. You are the very thing you say you despise.

 

Moving on:

 

What it really seems to boil down to is this.

 

People don't want to get their feelings hurt by:

A.) Being refused entry to or being kicked from a group for having too low DPS and thereby inviting multiple group wipes due to various requirements, including but not limited to timers, not being met as if all the factors you mentioned, while important, somehow mitigate that.

 

B.) Feeling bad because that other guy that lives almost his entire life online has much better gear and has much better damage and healing output--and he likes to give unwanted advice and spam meters in chat.

 

My initial thoughts are: Get over it. Really, get over it. Just like in real life, there are plenty of people with more talent, knowledge, intelligence, nicer stuff and sadly, some of them are very happy to tell you about it.

 

(Some of them are also button pushing monkeys with grind gear so good they almost can't fail at damage or healing.)

 

Get over it. People are here to be entertained and have fun, not wipe over and over on bosses because, despite your "1337" playing skills and awareness you just don't have anything like the damage or healing output for the group to succeed without you being substantially carried. (That said I will take a good player who needs a little lift over a bruiser who stands in fire any time.) PVP at least has bolstering so better players can make more of a difference even if they lack a full toolbox.

 

Why not just say, "I think recount promotes bad attitudes more than it helps with player assessment because..." rather than call other players names and demean their play preferences when it clearly bothers you when they do the same thing to you?

 

In a group setting parsing damage, healing and threat output, (and checking for standing in fire, etc.), help with a basic assessment of brute force throughput relative to the other members of the group which is mostly the point. Everyone can be doing their jobs perfectly and without the damage and/or healing they won't be able to take down a boss even without an enrage timer. So yeah, keep thinking that damage and healing output aren't relevant enough to downing a boss to keep track of.

 

Let's take the damage healing and protection meters out of pvp while we are at it...and those silly medal thingies, well...

 

While you and your friends may have been poorly treated, it doesn't change the fact that if you aren't beating a boss you should take a look at everything you mentioned INCLUDING your DPS and HPS, this being a numbers vs numbers game and all.

 

Groups of super mega awesome players with inadequate DPS and HPS still don't down bosses until they have adequate amounts of each.

 

That said, THOSE players know this, show awareness of it and embrace it rather than run away from it.

 

P.S. No one in their right mind is going to manually wade through a combat log...that is what addons are for, yes?

 

You know what all your posts say? In every post you have to get in the point that, and I'm paraphrasing here to encompass all of your posts, "everyone that doesn't want recount can't play for **** and they don't want others to know it." Then you act like you aren't being insulting. Also, quite often lately, you have to say that everyone that doesn't want recount ADDED is telling you how to play the game. It doesn't work like that. If it has to be added, the person doing the adding is telling everyone else how to play. Not the other way around.

 

I will now point out once again for those that obviously didn't see it in my earlier posts...

ALL content has been beaten in EVERY MODE, more than once and without meters of any kind in the game. That is right without meters. So what the hell do you need them for?

[crimsonsglory]

You Recount haters can choose not to raid with those so call "elitest/min-maxers"

 

but allow us to have the tools to choose not to raid with "noob/baddies/afkers"

 

They are ADDING a feature to a game, not take it out. If you dont like it you can choose not to

use it.

[JuicyFruits]

I'd like a personal recount so I can at least optimize my own DPS and spec.

 

Thats... basic stuff. Everyone got a "feeling" of what specs are the best, but I'd like some numbers.

[crimsonsglory]

I'd like a personal recount so I can at least optimize my own DPS and spec.

 

Thats... basic stuff. Everyone got a "feeling" of what specs are the best, but I'd like some numbers.

 

Yes but these haters are too blind to see. They use thier heart and bitter resentment(due to whatever reasons) for arguement , not rational and brains.

 

Why do people do dyno test after modification? Sure with the new exhaust/turbo/ECU they car feels faster. But the want numbers. Raw BHP numbers. Not just "oh i feel more power"

 

Sure you might not wana do a dyno test after you mod your car, but there are people who does.

Edited February 13, 2012 by crimsonsglory

[mrcaptainpants]

I'd like a personal recount so I can at least optimize my own DPS and spec.

 

Thats... basic stuff. Everyone got a "feeling" of what specs are the best, but I'd like some numbers.

 

I agree. I've said it before, but for the record, I'll say it again: I think a personal recount is a great idea.

[TheSkate]

You Recount haters can choose not to raid with those so call "elitest/min-maxers"

 

but allow us to have the tools to choose not to raid with "noob/baddies/afkers"

 

They are ADDING a feature to a game, not take it out. If you dont like it you can choose not to

use it.

 

You recount lovers can learn to play without it.

You know, like all those other players that have already beaten the entire game in all modes without meters.

 

They aren't taking meters out, they are (maybe) adding them.

OR how about they don't add your "feature" (unless it is for personal use only) and if you don't like it you learn to live without it.

 

To be elite is to be one of the best at something. All those that have already beaten NM are elite.

To be elitist is to THINK you are one of the best (or, much less likely, actually be one of the best) and put others down for not being up to your supposed level or standards.

Edited February 15, 2012 by TheSkate

[Daggerhowl]

If you need to meet a certain DPS mark to "beat" an encounter what that reflects is bad encounter design.

A Boss fight should be more about team work, strategy, awareness and fulfillment of a role, and not about standing there repeating a mind numbing rotation. If a Recount is allowed in SWTOR it won't take long until you'll see the cries: "My class is not doing enough DPS and I am not being invited in raids, change that or I will stop my sub!!". That litany will remain growing and it will end affecting how Bioware approaches their encounter design in way that would allow each class having its turn in the spotlight. That will end being achieved with uninteresting bosses that will be there only to raise your epeen, the famous "DPS races" in WoW.

 

You will see then these dialogs

 

"I did 60k DPS in this boss"

 

"Awesome!, did you killed it?"

 

"No, but I was top DPS"

 

"..."

Edited March 16, 2012 by Daggerhowl

[MuNieK]

I thought it will not do anything good, but tbh its the stuff that allows you to measure your performance and others performance, compare performances etc... its a good stuff.

[Navakai]

I'd really like an official word on this, and combat log implementation for that matter.

 

Bio-ware, wakey wakey.

[GOYAFIDO]

If you need to meet a certain DPS mark to "beat" an encounter what that reflects is bad encounter design.

A Boss fight should be more about team work, strategy, awareness and fulfillment of a role, and not about standing there repeating a mind numbing rotation. If a Recount is allowed in SWTOR it won't take long until you'll see the cries: "My class is not doing enough DPS and I am not being invited in raids, change that or I will stop my sub!!". That litany will remain growing and it will end affecting how Bioware approaches their encounter design in way that would allow each class having its turn in the spotlight. That will end being achieved with uninteresting bosses that will be there only to raise your epeen, the famous "DPS races" in WoW.

 

You will see then these dialogs

 

"I did 60k DPS in this boss"

 

"Did you killed it?"

 

"No, but I was top DPS"

 

"..."

 

Bear in mind that a lot of DPS races exist in part because some people can't be bothered to learn, or simply can't do "the dance."

 

Encounter designs do bear the quality and competence of the player in mind. The easier the content, the less capable and competent the player has to be to in order to complete it.

[Hologramx]

Maybe we need a new generation Recount that also show us a new SDPS (Skilled DPS).

 

DPS = Damage Done / Time DPSing

RDPS = Damage Done / Time of whole fight

SDPS = Damage Done / Time of whole fight / Gear Score

 

From experience,

Epic Gear + Poor Skill = Bad DPS

Ungeared + Good Skill = Real Good DPS (They will be superb when geared)

[Koopababy]

Meters have their places in mmos. but can also be a problem to. Some people want to have fun and try to enjoy the game while on. I remember watching raids, etc in Rift and Wow it could get ridiculous. Some people dont need someone coaching them every other pull with nerd talk and spreadsheets "the recount says your dmg was not up to par that round, you need to do this or this". Also people do use it as a tool to abuse new players etc, not even allowing them into pug groups. I would love to see my dmg in a parser but i know what comes with it, people go ego crazy and do bad gameplay focused on one thing, toppin the dmg charts no matter the cost.

 

Suppose to be a game, not a part time job. And really, what raid in Swtor is hard enough where you need to worry about parsers and trying to figure out how to beat enrage timers or complete it. Theres not even large raids in the game yet.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Koopababy

[ZedFighter]

No.

 

We didn't need parsing before and we don't need it now.

 

It's primarily for finger pointing and ego. I despise those types of people and actions.

[Thecooljason]

No. It just is a way to point blame and keep groups elitist. I don't want this game to go the way of WOW, where people expect me to be fully geared and now all the fights before the first time I go into a raid, or even, in some cases, dungeons.

[Amyas]

No this made the play base of WoW even more leet jerk like

[DarkCarnage]

at this time, i think we be find wiht out a damge meter, now thatis untill we find a battle where the DPS must be over a cerain number before a super move unleasesh and kills everyone. i see a few HM and not seen on that unbeatable wiht out said meters/add-ons. now i yet to do a hard core ops but i jsut got 50 a few nights ago, since i was tkaing my time and clear every planet up to voss(10 more quest there and it done, inclused bonus serise quest)

[Perkunas]

No this made the play base of WoW even more leet jerk like

 

Incorrect statement is incorrect. We had meters in Vanilla and BC. The game's community was at it's best during BC... Making the game easy and handing out gear is what turned everybody into jerks.

[GOYAFIDO]

Jerks predate WOW and therefore WOW addons. True story.

 

The mere mention of a recount-type addon has already brought out anti-recount elitists and jerks in droves.

 

It's true that addons bring out the "elitist jerk" in people--including people who say they hate it when OTHER people behave like elitist jerks to THEM...

 

Who knew?

[Navakai]

No this made the play base of WoW even more leet jerk like

 

 

It also made min maxing and theory crafting a passion, not just a hobby, and helped skyrocket the subscriber base over 10 million. Do some research and look at the post API tools being released did to WOW and it's popularity.

 

 

 

 

 

If you, or anyone think damage meters and recounts are purely there for 'egos' and 'finger pointing' You're being ignorant.

 

 

Truth be told, and I've read and posted *a lot* in this thread, so I've read each and every post in it, if anyone is being 'elitist, and pointing fingers" It's those who oppose recount or a damage meter.

 

The concise, thought out, and detailed posts are coming from those who are for it.

 

Coincidence?

 

 

EDIT: And quit arguing over whether or not we 'need it'. You need air, you need water, you need food. People want it because its industry standard. Not just in wow.

 

Personally I wouldn't train for a sport if I couldn't monitor and better my times. And I approach gaming the same way.

 

Not everyone is happy to play with blindfolds on.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Navakai