Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Jizzdom]

For my two cents... I just want to see a personal DPS meter, and training dummy. I don't give a darn about what others are doing for damage. I've played with a ton of folks that might have a low DPS, but manage to stay out goo, fire, etc. and I value them way more than someone that reigns god-like damage, but can't avoid a simple combat mechanic. I'm sick of the whole, "Hey, man your dps sucks... boot.", if you aren't getting yourself or anyone else killed, then there should be no issues overcoming a weak dps'er. Overall I'm anti-addon, addons are for little kids and people that probably shouldn't be playing. There was actually a time in WoW that addons didn't exist, and people actually learned to play (gasp!). I think some way of knowing your personal damage (and/or hps) like a personal "Recount", to make yourself better is almost a necessity, and is a different beast than what most are asking for. This and customizable UI are and will be the only addon type things I will ever suggest. If its too tough to hit a couple of buttons, and move without being told, then go back to WoW, or Super Mario Bros. or whatever. Let the big kids play.

[TheSkate]

We have thousands upon thousands of posts that pretty much boil down to:

 

1.) Recount is good because it allows us to measure and analyze important numbers and other data to improve our game play. This is harmless from a logical point of view.

 

2.) Recount is bad because it will be just another way for people whose ego's are driven by those same numbers and data to treat the protesters, who are ALSO driven by ego, badly, thus hurting the feelings of the protesters. This is harmful from an emotional point of view, for the protesters at least, as not everyone is as sensitive as they are.

 

Now go back and read those again, really.

 

#1 Is a logical position. #2 is an emotional position driven by ego on the part of the PROTESTERS, MANY of whom are behaving in EXACTLY the insulting, demeaning manner to the pro-recount people they SAY they so dislike receiving from others.

 

There is no integrity in position #2 as it is basically an emotional, "I don't want you to tell ME how to play, but it's okay if I don't want YOU to have recount so you can play YOUR way."

 

#2 IS...#2...it's just "nanny nanny boo boo stick your head in doo doo" in disguise.

 

Um, #1 is not logical. Where is the logic in adding something superfluous? Just to say it is there? It isn't needed to play the game. Therefore it is unnecessary, uncalled for and a waste of developers resources.

[GOYAFIDO]

Why all the fuss about Recount? We already have Gearscore...it's called "Armor Rating."

 

Why is it that so many of the detractors of recount are treating pro-recount players in the EXACT elitist, insulting demeaning way they say they don't want to be treated and then make up excuses as to why it's okay...Irony and hypocrisy at once.

Edited February 11, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Navakai]

I personally think the whole thing is insane. I feel it's important that raid leaders / officers ect in guilds can monitor peoples performance.

 

If an off chance by product of that, is someone, somewhere gets kicked from a group or offended because the people running the group are idiots. So be it.

 

But to hold a game back, behind its competitors in regards to min / maxing, theory crafting, and deter your 'hardcore' players, all for the sake of a chance someone could be offended, or kicked from a group?

 

Seems really really insane to me.

 

 

What about the flip side to the argument?

 

I've always been considered a decent player. I was a multi-gladiator in World of Warcraft, as well as a raid leader / co-gm of a top 20 ranked US guild, raid wise.

 

I would always perform to my maximum potential.

 

I remember when I started getting into pve, I joined a mostly guild run as a pug, under geared and behind the others. Yet I was on par and competitive in dps all night. Made no mistakes, and was consistent.

 

Before I knew it I was a part of the team, and gradually worked my way up the ranks.

 

 

Every coin has two sides. Seems silly to remove the coin all together just because you fear the worst.

[Lerthan]

I personally think the whole thing is insane. I feel it's important that raid leaders / officers ect in guilds can monitor peoples performance.

 

If an off chance by product of that, is someone, somewhere gets kicked from a group or offended because the people running the group are idiots. So be it.

 

But to hold a game back, behind its competitors in regards to min / maxing, theory crafting, and deter your 'hardcore' players, all for the sake of a chance someone could be offended, or kicked from a group?

 

Seems really really insane to me.

 

 

What about the flip side to the argument?

 

I've always been considered a decent player. I was a multi-gladiator in World of Warcraft, as well as a raid leader / co-gm of a top 20 ranked US guild, raid wise.

 

I would always perform to my maximum potential.

 

I remember when I started getting into pve, I joined a mostly guild run as a pug, under geared and behind the others. Yet I was on par and competitive in dps all night. Made no mistakes, and was consistent.

 

Before I knew it I was a part of the team, and gradually worked my way up the ranks.

 

 

Every coin has two sides. Seems silly to remove the coin all together just because you fear the worst.

 

And you would have been able to do that with or without recount.

 

Like I said, personal metrics are fine and I am all for that. Group metrics no I am not.

[Navakai]

If you truly enjoy the challenge then Recount isn't necessary - using in-game cues and defeating the boss by mastering the encounter mechanics will be enough

 

 

This comment makes no sense when compared to your comment below. I'm not referring to the 'challenge' of a fights mechanics. Those are easily mastered, and eventually the fight ends up on 'farm' same ****.. different day.

 

It's true, without any metrics you can't play the "performance metagame" of comparing your numbers to your previous numbers or to other people and if that is all you look for in a game SWTOR might not be the right game for you at this time.

 

So far it's not. It has everything else going for it in regards to being an MMO with end game raiding and pvp. Yet doesn't supply the baseline tools other competing products do. That doesn't stop me however having a voice, and using it to try and better a product.

 

 

 

FOR YOU...

 

Not everybody, not a majority, not even for some of the other people who are "pro-meters" and it's important to remember that.

 

This works both ways remember.

 

 

As shocking as it might seem to you, there is also a noticeable number of people playing this game (and posting on the forums) who remember when Raiding and Instances were both challenging and cooperative - not competitive, and we enjoyed overcoming the challenges in the game with our friends, experimenting with strategies, pulling through together and not viewing most of the game's population as "bads" and "stupid" who needed to be "carried" and as WoW's content became more and more driven by DPS as the end-all-be-all metric thanks to meters that play-style was largely driven from the game.

 

Raiding was always competitive. The nature of everything from server firsts, to spending hours trying to down a boss show's that.

 

Speaking from experience, the only way to obtain server firsts and be competitive is for each player to be competitive with themselves on a baseline level. This is currently impossible in SWTOR.

 

It was far more challenging when debuffs were expected to and needed to be cleared by DPS, and CC was a very important part of the game, and terms like "Scorch Bit#h" were still only a gleam in some prig's eye.

 

Agreed. But with no addon support, and no clear way to track buff's debuffs (staring at the bottom of your screen is not ideal) Isn't this counter intuitive to you? Much the same way many rotations have proc based parts to them. You can't track the procs unless you stare above your health bar.

 

 

 

If you want challenge and excellence, if you want to truly strive to compare yourself and your performance to others and see where you stand - PvP is waiting for you.

 

Is this a joke? Have you tried the pvp within this game? There is no challenge, and no measure of 'excellence'. But that's a separate issue.

 

I get that you want Meters, but they definitely are not needed in any way

 

"needed' is a subjective term. Are they needed for the game to function? no. Are they needed for everyone to enjoy the game? of course not.

 

Are they needed to attract and keep a certain caliber of player? yes.

 

Like I said in my above post before I had read your reply to me. There's two sides to it. One side is about options, the other is about none.

[GOYAFIDO]

I personally think the whole thing is insane. I feel it's important that raid leaders / officers ect in guilds can monitor peoples performance.

 

If an off chance by product of that, is someone, somewhere gets kicked from a group or offended because the people running the group are idiots. So be it.

 

But to hold a game back, behind its competitors in regards to min / maxing, theory crafting, and deter your 'hardcore' players, all for the sake of a chance someone could be offended, or kicked from a group?

 

Seems really really insane to me.

 

 

What about the flip side to the argument?

 

I've always been considered a decent player. I was a multi-gladiator in World of Warcraft, as well as a raid leader / co-gm of a top 20 ranked US guild, raid wise.

 

I would always perform to my maximum potential.

 

I remember when I started getting into pve, I joined a mostly guild run as a pug, under geared and behind the others. Yet I was on par and competitive in dps all night. Made no mistakes, and was consistent.

 

Before I knew it I was a part of the team, and gradually worked my way up the ranks.

 

 

Every coin has two sides. Seems silly to remove the coin all together just because you fear the worst.

 

Most of the anti-recount people are also probably casual raiders who aren't likely to be grouping with hardcore raiders with any frequency to get their feelings hurt in the first place.

[DaxRendar]

Agreed. But with no addon support, and no clear way to track buff's debuffs (staring at the bottom of your screen is not ideal) Isn't this counter intuitive to you? Much the same way many rotations have proc based parts to them. You can't track the procs unless you stare above your health bar.

 

And I'm "pro-UI/HUD enhancements" because of it (I don't think they necessarily need to be addons) but better Proc/Buff/Debuff notification (especially on Ops Frames) would be a really beneficial addition to the game.

 

 

Is this a joke? Have you tried the pvp within this game? There is no challenge, and no measure of 'excellence'. But that's a separate issue.

 

Hopefully Rated Warzones will change your mind.

 

 

"needed' is a subjective term. Are they needed for the game to function? no. Are they needed for everyone to enjoy the game? of course not.

 

Are they needed to attract and keep a certain caliber of player? yes.

 

Like I said in my above post before I had read your reply to me. There's two sides to it. One side is about options, the other is about none.

 

I'd replace the word "caliber" with "type" of player - one that arguably does at least as much harm as good to a game's community.

 

I wonder whether you would agree or disagree with the assessment that WoW created a culture of "Elitist" but hardly "Elite" players who think they are superior because they can hit certain "magic thresholds" on Damage Meters while generally being piss-poor at CC/Interrupts/Situational Awareness without DBM screaming and blinking at them who rarely have any clue or insight into the nuances of encounter structure/favorable buffs/"RNG Luck" (not being targeted 4 times in a row by Boss effects)/raid role assignment (boss vs adds, etc) and how that affects a person's performance or value to the group.

 

Personally, like the other recent poster, I have no issue with Personal Meters, but my preference would have certain "conditions" attached to them:

1) NO Real Time Meters (only viewable after Encounter Attempts/Training Droid Sessions)

2) Personal Only (Possibly an option for Ops Leader to view all)

3) Only available in Hard Mode Ops and Training Facilities

(not needed for Normal Difficulty content, and it adds challenge to Nightmare Mode to "fly blind")

 

Hopefully the limitations would be enough to satisfy those who absolutely must analyze the numbers or suffer medical conditions while minimizing the negative effects of meters on the community as a whole.

[mrcaptainpants]

I wonder if its possible to make a "recount" type meter and tie it into guild membership?

 

What I mean is this: I, personally, do not feel that my output numbers are anyone else's business. However, I understand that people who take group activities more seriously will disagree with me. So, what if guilds are able to enable a tool that allows guild officers the ability to see their member's output numbers? Not everyone in the entire guild, mind you, but the officers.

 

Further, what if this ability could be toggled on and off by the guild leader? So, for example, if you want a casual guild where your members don't have to feel like they are going to be scrutinized and judged for every point of DPS, you can turn it off and use that as a recruiting tool: "Hey, we're a guild that doesn't use recount, come join us for a relaxed atmosphere!"

 

Similarly, if you are a more competitive/serious guild, you can enable the recount feature and know that if someone is severely under-performing, your guild officers will be able to have a talk with them.

 

I suppose this wouldn't be helpful in groups where the party members weren't in a guild together, but...I dunno, I'm trying to find a compromise here.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Navakai]

 

Personally, like the other recent poster, I have no issue with Personal Meters, but my preference would have certain "conditions" attached to them:

1) NO Real Time Meters (only viewable after Encounter Attempts/Training Droid Sessions)

2) Personal Only (Possibly an option for Ops Leader to view all)

3) Only available in Hard Mode Ops and Training Facilities

(not needed for Normal Difficulty content, and it adds challenge to Nightmare Mode to "fly blind")

 

Hopefully the limitations would be enough to satisfy those who absolutely must analyze the numbers or suffer medical conditions while minimizing the negative effects of meters on the community as a whole.

 

That would work for me. Good post.

[TheSkate]

Most of the anti-recount people are also probably casual raiders who aren't likely to be grouping with hardcore raiders with any frequency to get their feelings hurt in the first place.

 

Most of the the pro-recount people are also probably NOT hardcore raiders who aren't likely to be grouping with hardcore raiders or they would have already beaten the endgame and be in the "this game is boring" forum instead of here whining about getting recount.

What?

[Eschleepy]

Ok so after our guild being together for 3 weeks, we are 9/10 nightmare mode. And so now, we have the fights figured out and pretty clean strats. So now what? Kill, get the same gear and keep killing?

 

In my mind, meters take off the edge of repetitive kills. You can push yourself to be better. No need for world of log rankings or anything like that. Just something to be able to push yourself to be better. As it stands, the only time you know dps is down is when an enrage timer goes off. Now this could be from a number of issues. Dps might stop to throw a heal on the tank while a healer gets tossed around or even toss a heal on a dps who took some bad spike dmg. But in any case, playing just to kill the boss gets stale quick.

 

I remember back in WoW, those first kills were amazing! The feeling of taking a boss down, you just felt that teamwork and the excitement of the kill. But when it was on farm? Well all you could do was tweak your rotation, work on timing, and push yourself to up your personal dps. The boss was going to die, that was a given. At least that sense of personal improvement helped you look forward to something. Without a meter, its like running a marathon without a timer going. You know you can go the distance but how do you know when you're doing better? How do you push yourself to be your very best?

 

I do like the idea of having just a personal dps meter as I can see how things went bad in WoW when it was 'do 20k dps or ****'. I honestly dont care if people believe what my screen is telling me Im pulling. And being in a guild, theres no reason anyone of us would lie to the other and the screenshot button seems to be proof enough among friends. I just feel like if they want a long term end game project to work, you need things like meters to keep min/max players busy. Or even casual competitive people like myself something to look at and push to improve on.

 

TLDR: I would like meters for personal performance measurements and self improvement.

[terminova]

 

Recount is not just a "damage meter"... it is a graphical interface which allows you to view group activity in the combat log i.e.

 

You shouldn't have access to what everyone else is doing combat wise. Damage meters should only be there to help YOU improve yourself. Party wide damage meters ultimately do not serve the purpose of actually helping others. What helps others are player guides etc that have a bigger positive impact on gameplay than damage meters ever will.

[Navakai]

A guild is a collective of people. When you're raiding you have a like-minded goal in mind. Meter's allow you to address issues and reach this goal.

 

The poster above me is off his rocker.

[Dwimmerlaik]

I only support a damage meter on a personal level. I understand that a damage meter is a valuable tool for raid leaders to figure out who is not cutting it, and remove them as needed. I also understand that a damage meter is a crutch for raid leaders to use to see who is not pulling their weight, rather than paying attention to surroundings and noticing the guy not attacking for a few seconds after every attack.

[Piriste]

For Realtime DPS Meter: Personal only

For Combat Logs: All the damage

 

Raid communities surely want fight logs to show everyones dps after fights so they can squeeze out all the effectiveness.

[Eschleepy]

I only support a damage meter on a personal level. I understand that a damage meter is a valuable tool for raid leaders to figure out who is not cutting it, and remove them as needed. I also understand that a damage meter is a crutch for raid leaders to use to see who is not pulling their weight, rather than paying attention to surroundings and noticing the guy not attacking for a few seconds after every attack.

 

LOL Seriously? You want a raid leader to lead and call out mechanics, which is what I find raid leaders do most of the time, but also assess ALL dps on any given fight ans decide who is not attacking at a specific time? You are nuts. No way. I would not even THINK about asking a raid leader to fill that role. Personal dps meter, I could see that working, seeing as if it becomes a problem, the raid lead could ask everyone to screenshot their final dps. Its a pain for sure if you didnt have an overall dps log to see whats going on. But you could at least work with it until they release something down the road or open the way for 3rd party development. But logs being a crutch for a raid leader??? LOL Seriously, I'll be laughing about that all evening.

[Lightfeatherrr]

If grenades got nerfed because of "guilds demanding people have grenades or health packs to raid" what makes people think that bioware will want to put yet another tool for guild raid discrimination into the game?

[Deewe]

With Recount

Without Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group you are wearing a green helm and your gear isn't good enough for this encounter. (You get kicked, even if you were top DPS)

-

EDIT: It would also totally eliminate "recount spam". They could disable all data broadcasts... If everyone has access to the information there would be no need to broadcast the results.[/color][/b]

Simple fix for your green item and like comments: allow players not to be inspected by others if they wish so..

 

Then I'm totally against a public version of recount. Still I'd appreciate to be able to check my rotation DPS, but it's none of your business to know how good or bad I'm doing. We do not need the game to fall into an epeen system, no thank you.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Deewe

[GOYAFIDO]

If grenades got nerfed because of "guilds demanding people have grenades or health packs to raid" what makes people think that bioware will want to put yet another tool for guild raid discrimination into the game?

 

Because neither grenades nor health packs were intended to have as much group impact as opposed to personal convenience. I think grenades were a not so great idea, not because they suck but because of how they were implemented. It was absolutely guaranteed that hardcore players would find a way to use them in raiding and, if found to be significantly useful, they would become a standard and not an option.

 

Any time anything is changed, added or subtracted in a game the min/maxers and griefers/trolls need to be considered because they WILL find a way to use it and abuse to it's fullest.

 

This does NOT mean that every utility, like meters, should be denied due to said trolling/griefing. People are basically painting all min/maxers as griefers and trolls which is arrogant and silly and self-righteous, and many of them, certainly some of the most vocal of them, are behaving towards pro-meter users in EXACTLY the way they say they HATE being treated.

 

Here is probably my favorite sample, (paraphrased), that has been repeated in many ways over and over in this thread:

 

"Real players don't need meters." (Only elitists who think 'real players use meters' want them.) Oh, wait...

 

Elitist much? ANY variation on "real players..." and "good players..." is the EXACT sort of ******tery that the anti-recount people are saying will be encouraged by the use of meters...and is the EXACT argument most of them are using to argue AGAINST it...Oh the irony...

 

Let us not forgot all the variations on:

 

"You elitist ******s think your're so great, well you're NOT so great, in fact some of you just plain suck and are really stupid and incompetent"...

 

"We think meters will cause more players call us names and treat us in an insulting and demeaning manner, so we have decided to fight their inclusion in the game by calling people names and treating them in an insulting and demeaning manner"...where is an irony bucket when you need one?

 

Last but not least:

 

"It's just a game, it's not important. Why do you want to accomplish anything in it, it's not like it's real life, in fact you have no life and should get a life if you actually want to accomplish anything in this game."

 

"Gee I hate when people tell me how I should be playing my game and speak to me in an insulting and demeaning manner.":rolleyes:

 

Screw the bucket, what we need here is an irony ROWBOAT for all the hypocritical, crocodile tears in this thread....

 

People might actually be on to something saying that meters encourage ******tery, but it clearly won't be just from the so-called "hardcore elitists.":cool:

Edited February 12, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[GOYAFIDO]

Simple fix for your green item and like comments: allow players not to be inspected by others if they wish so..

 

Then I'm totally against a public version of recount. Still I'd appreciate to be able to check my rotation DPS, name-it but it's none of your business to know how good or bad I'm doing. We do not need the game to fall into an epeen system, no thank you.

 

It's none of my business if I don't group with you, certainly. Then I couldn't care less.

 

As a semi-min/maxer and NON-hardcore raider I still believe that most people who don't want metrics, don't want them because they really AREN'T as good or well-geared as others whether it's because they either don't have the time or don't care, and they don't want to be judged for it and in a very selfish way they don't want people with more time and more dedication to be allowed to do better.

 

Many people really DO seem to think a participation trophy is better than a first place trophy perhaps because they realize they probably won't ever see a first place trophy. (You can see them on the forums telling other people to "get a life" and not get so immersed and involved in a game that at its core...is supposed to immerse and involve you.) Most of us won't so who cares?. It's still worth trying for.

 

Why give up so easily?

 

P.S. This game being full of people with more time and dedication than we have is neither a reason to embrace mediocrity nor a reason to stay up nights planning and testing if we don't want to. It is also NOT a reason to refuse tools to people who want them for analysis to better themselves. You are just telling people how to play their game, when you say hate being treated that way...go look in a mirror so you can see your other face, yes?

 

If you are a worse player and/or worse geared than someone else for ANY reason, why do you seek to drag them down to YOUR level when you clearly would like to have what they have? If you really couldn't care less about them and what they have then shut your mouth and get out of their way.

Edited February 12, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Eschleepy]

Simple fix for your green item and like comments: allow players not to be inspected by others if they wish so..

 

Then I'm totally against a public version of recount. Still I'd appreciate to be able to check my rotation DPS, name-it but it's none of your business to know how good or bad I'm doing. We do not need the game to fall into an epeen system, no thank you.

 

I would be all for this if they would create a 'casual' and 'hardcore' realm. Granted, by no means would all 'hardcore' people be hardcore raiders but if you roll there, expect to be treated like one. And if you're on a 'casual' realm, you can just tell people to buzz off if they give you any grief and tell them to go roll on a hardcore realm. Cause honestly, you cant play a competitive raid and just let a person who is bad continue to be bad. Im sure that player would LOVE to hide in the corner and let no one know they are bad. But if its causing wipes, then it needs to be addressed.

 

Sorry, I grew up playing PUGs, as in real pugs. Pick up games of basketball at the park. And if you sucked, you could practice to get better so you could get in games, or you sat, or you got your own game together with people of your skill. When you played to stay on the court, you definitely did not want the kid who threw diaper shots on your team.

 

Since when did it become ok to have bad people be bad and be entitled to play with people of higher skill just because they pay money? Im not saying you shouldnt be allowed to play the game by any means. But if you dont want to take the time to read about your class, look up stat weights, read about rotations, then what makes you think you have any right to have a group of people who HAVE done that carry you through a raid?

 

I try to help people where I can. But this game has levels of difficulty. BW and the whole rest of the world recognizes that you progress in stages. There are H flashpoints, dailies, etc. People who ding 50 and then want to be carried through a raid to grab the best gear available and further want to hide behind an anonymous dps meter and say its none of my business seems like the lazy, shortcut crowd to me.

 

TLDR: Casuals and Raiders will never get along....

[mrcaptainpants]

It is also NOT a reason to refuse tools to people who want them for analysis to better themselves. You are just telling people how to play their game, when you say hate being treated that way...go look in a mirror so you can see your other face, yes?

 

Goyafido, you keep saying that you just want these tools for analysis to better yourself. Okay, fine, great, and I'm in total support of personal damage meters.

 

But you also say:

 

It's none of my business if I don't group with you, certainly. Then I couldn't care less.

 

Here's where I'm confused. The above statement seems to imply that you feel that being able to see another player's numbers IS your business if you ARE grouped with them.

 

So which is it? You only want these tools to better yourself? Or you want them because you want to access other people's numbers in order to evaluate their performance?

 

Please note that I have not personally attacked you in any way. I have not insulted you. I haven't even placed a value judgement here. So if you choose to reply, please do so in a civil, non-insulting manner, as I have taken great pains to try to craft this response in neutral tones.

 

I'm only asking you to clarify your position, and if in fact you do want these tools to measure other people's peformance, then please at least acknowledge that you aren't asking for these tools just to better yourself.

Edited February 12, 2012 by mrcaptainpants

[Eschleepy]

Goyafido, you keep saying that you just want these tools for analysis to better yourself. Okay, fine, great, and I'm in total support of personal damage meters.

 

But you also say:

 

 

 

Here's where I'm confused. The above statement seems to imply that you feel that being able to see another player's numbers IS your business if you ARE grouped with them.

 

So which is it? You only want these tools to better yourself? Or you want them because you want to access other people's numbers in order to evaluate their performance?

 

Please note that I have not personally attacked you in any way. I have not insulted you. I haven't even placed a value judgement here. So if you choose to reply, please do so in a civil, non-insulting manner, as I have taken great pains to try to craft this response in neutral tones.

 

I'm only asking you to clarify your position, and if in fact you do want these tools to measure other people's peformance, then please at least acknowledge that you aren't asking for these tools just to better yourself.

 

Lets draw an example here, since his POV was similar to mine. Lets say you want to enter an event, say a relay race. You have a large pool of players to choose from to make your team. There is no doubt people who will enter just for the fun of it and dont care how well they finish. Its just something to do and have fun with. But there are others who, while having fun, want to compete and push for a win. So they add in a rule that you can run a mock race to see where you're at to make your team. Now, the people who are just in it for fun and dont care might not even run that mock race. But the people in it to win are going to wanna run, not only to see where they are at, as far as the level of competition, but to also create a team of similarly skilled people for his or her team. Does that make sense?

 

I mean I KNOW the people who are just in it for the fun of it will say the competitive people are killing the fun and ruining it for others. Trust me, the competitive people say the same thing about the others. And while both seem ok with each group doing their own thing, its when theres this desire to randomly group people together that you hit a wall. I honestly have NO problem with someone playing this game and having fun and playing it how they see fit and stacking strength items on their operative because it matches their pants or whatever. Its only when they expect a group of competitive people to tolerate that that it becomes an issue. People are indeed rude about it, but I dont think Ive ever nicely explained to someone why their gear is messed up and them take it well. Its rare on both sides. Thats why Im in favor of the realm separation. It might seem extreme but what do people say when someone rolls on a pvp server and cries about getting ganked? "What did you think was gonna happen on a pvp server?" I think the realm separation would imply that a higher level of expectation would be assumed if you rolled on a 'raiding' realm or however they would term it. IDK just my idea of a solution, since 'people should act like humans' doesnt seem like a viable option.

[Deewe]

I would be all for this if they would create a 'casual' and 'hardcore' realm. Granted, by no means would all 'hardcore' people be hardcore raiders but if you roll there, expect to be treated like one. And if you're on a 'casual' realm, you can just tell people to buzz off if they give you any grief and tell them to go roll on a hardcore realm. Cause honestly, you cant play a competitive raid and just let a person who is bad continue to be bad. Im sure that player would LOVE to hide in the corner and let no one know they are bad. But if its causing wipes, then it needs to be addressed.

 

Sorry, I grew up playing PUGs, as in real pugs. Pick up games of basketball at the park. And if you sucked, you could practice to get better so you could get in games, or you sat, or you got your own game together with people of your skill. When you played to stay on the court, you definitely did not want the kid who threw diaper shots on your team.

 

Since when did it become ok to have bad people be bad and be entitled to play with people of higher skill just because they pay money? Im not saying you shouldnt be allowed to play the game by any means. But if you dont want to take the time to read about your class, look up stat weights, read about rotations, then what makes you think you have any right to have a group of people who HAVE done that carry you through a raid?

 

I try to help people where I can. But this game has levels of difficulty. BW and the whole rest of the world recognizes that you progress in stages. There are H flashpoints, dailies, etc. People who ding 50 and then want to be carried through a raid to grab the best gear available and further want to hide behind an anonymous dps meter and say its none of my business seems like the lazy, shortcut crowd to me.

 

TLDR: Casuals and Raiders will never get along....

You still don't need Recount, nor a hardcore server.

 

What you need is a way to queue or advertise for "hardcore" mode. A decent LFG system with players notes should do the trick.