How can you not feel bad when you watch a Scoundrel / Operative play?

[BlazeMazeRaze]

How can you not feel bad about this classes potential in PVP after you watch what Scoundrels/Operatives can do?

 

I have watched plenty of geared 50 sentinels pvp and I thought it looked pretty good until I saw this guy play.

http://www.twitch.tv/th3d0nut

 

If you watch this stream you will see how he shreds through geared level 50s like tissue paper. I have never seen a sentinel even approach this kind of destruction.

[Staavis_SC]

I was able to see the difference between Jedi and non-Jedi as early as The Esseles.

 

My girlfriend and I ran a pair of Jedi up to The Esseles. We ran it together at Level 11, and were unable to complete it. We got our rear ends handed to us by Ironfist and simply couldn't get past it.

 

We then ran a Smuggler / Trooper pair.

 

The difference was DAY AND NIGHT!!!!

 

We blazed through The Esseles and never died once. Heck, neither one of us got below 1/2 health at any point during that Flashpoint.

 

I know it's not real scientific to make that detemination at Level 11, but when the difference is crystal clear to my usually non-gamer girlfriend, and she, who wanted to swing a lightsaber, tells me that she hates playing a Jedi and wants to play a Trooper, it's pretty clear to me that the Jedi were not designed for casuals or for the faint of heart.

 

I could probably make a go of the Jedi myself...but it's utterly painful compared to my ez-mode God of DPS smuggler, that often times NEVER takes ANY damage at all.

[Fascion]

Because I know that not all classes were designed to pop out of stealth and perform huge spike DPS.

 

Because I know that (or at least have good evidence to suggest that) yellow-damage is horrendously bugged right now, completely ignoring defensive stats like Defense Rating and Shield Rating. Some (Internal and Elemental damage) even ignores armor.

 

Because Ops/Scoundrel will be nerfed, even if they don't need it, simply due to the outcry from squeaky wheels. Just like Biochem and Cybertech.

 

Because DPS and kills are not an actual goal in any Warzone currently in the game (though they certainly facilitate performing said objectives.)

 

Because Sentinel has access to plenty of things that Ops/Scounrel does not.

 

If the above five reasons are not sufficient, just let me know.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Fascion

[RamzaBehoulve]

/facepalm

 

Biochem and WZ buffs stacking is broken. It will be fixed tomorrow and those scoundrels/ops will start crying how pathetic they really are.

 

Nothing to see here.

 

PS : I also shred 50s when I pop everything I have, but it takes a bit longer.

Edited January 16, 2012 by RamzaBehoulve

[McVade]

Because I know that not all classes were designed to pop out of stealth and perform huge spike DPS.

 

Because I know that (or at least have good evidence to suggest that) yellow-damage is horrendously bugged right now, completely ignoring defensive stats like Defense Rating and Shield Rating. Some (Internal and Elemental damage) even ignores armor.

 

Because Ops/Scoundrel will be nerfed, even if they don't need it, simply due to the outcry from squeaky wheels. Just like Biochem and Cybertech.

 

Because DPS and kills are not an actual goal in any Warzone currently in the game (though they certainly facilitate performing said objectives.)

 

Because Sentinel has access to plenty of things that Ops/Scounrel does not.

 

If the above five reasons are not sufficient, just let me know.

 

This kind of sums it up, but the issue is, lots of people don't feel bad. Lots of people feel frustrated. High burst is okay. 3 second kills by 1 other class aren't. Moreover, frustration is even more compounded by the fact there's no combat log. You can't even go back and see what specificially killed you. You just see 2-3 big numbers on your screen and fall over dead.

 

I'm not feeling bad just yet, but I do find myself wanting to run into the fire during Huttball intentionally every time I get popped by a Smuggler/IA in 3 seconds. That way, at least I know what the hell's killing me and I know what I can do to stay alive next time... I can avoid the fire.

[Toppins]

Why would I feel bad? They can't kill me even with buff-stacking.

[Anilon]

I was able to see the difference between Jedi and non-Jedi as early as The Esseles.

 

My girlfriend and I ran a pair of Jedi up to The Esseles. We ran it together at Level 11, and were unable to complete it. We got our rear ends handed to us by Ironfist and simply couldn't get past it.

 

We then ran a Smuggler / Trooper pair.

 

The difference was DAY AND NIGHT!!!!

 

We blazed through The Esseles and never died once. Heck, neither one of us got below 1/2 health at any point during that Flashpoint.

 

I know it's not real scientific to make that detemination at Level 11, but when the difference is crystal clear to my usually non-gamer girlfriend, and she, who wanted to swing a lightsaber, tells me that she hates playing a Jedi and wants to play a Trooper, it's pretty clear to me that the Jedi were not designed for casuals or for the faint of heart.

 

I could probably make a go of the Jedi myself...but it's utterly painful compared to my ez-mode God of DPS smuggler, that often times NEVER takes ANY damage at all.

 

 

Balance at level 11 is really not something worth analyzing or worrying about.....

[Staavis_SC]

Balance at level 11 is really not something worth analyzing or worrying about.....

 

Are you so sure?

 

No doubt my girlfriend and I are not the only people who tried out Jedi, found them woefully weak, not very fun and generally ineffective early on, and traded them out for the uber-Trooper and Super Fun Smuggler.

 

So is that worth analyzing?

 

I'd be curious to see what percentage of the game population is Jedi (Knight or Consular) compared to how many are Troopers or Smugglers.

 

The naked eye is probably not a good judge of this, but as I look around Republic Fleet, it seems to me (once again, not very scientific) that the majority of people I see are Smugglers or Troopers.

 

If Smuggler and Trooper have an overwhelming share of population (which we wouldn't know for sure unless Bioware released the numbers or a census was held) then wouldn't that suggest that players don't particularly like the Jedi or find them fun?

 

First impressions are pretty big, and my first impression (as well as my continued impressions in soloing a Guardian and Sentinel up to 20) is that the Jedi really don't stack up to the Trooper or Smuggler.

 

It's possible that Jedi hit their stride later in game. I've heard that anyway. But who would figure that out, when so much of the lower levels with Jedi are painful and not very fun?

 

While you want classes balanced at max level, they should also be equally fun to level, and no class should totally struggle and feel pain at any point, if they are designed properly.

[Fascion]

Why would I feel bad? They can't kill me even with buff-stacking.

This too.

 

Being a Sentinel, I'm sure I'm not high on their priority list in terms of who to target for these attacks. Even when they do, I rarely feel as ****hurt by their attacks as these forums would have you believe. On a good day for them I tend to walk away with 20% HP. Typically it's more around 50%, Rakata pot at the ready. The obvious exception to this is when it is more than just the Ops attacking me. Ops + anything = just about guaranteed death, Force Camo, Guarded by the Force or otherwise. Either way, it's exceedingly rare that a solo Op actually kills me before I can respond.

 

But that's a Sentinel's perspective. Not everyone is as well equipped for escape and survivability. I would even suggest that a good portion of the squeaky wheels on this issue aren't properly geared, ignoring defenses and HP in favor of that seemingly all-important DPS and spike.

 

 

 

Also, Staavis. I was typing up another reply for this thread and took the time to refresh before I posted it. I was planning to use the word "woefully" before seeing you post it in your own reply. I have since taken the time to reword and remove large parts of that discussion. I hope your happy!

[Anilon]

Are you so sure?

 

No doubt my girlfriend and I are not the only people who tried out Jedi, found them woefully weak, not very fun and generally ineffective early on, and traded them out for the uber-Trooper and Super Fun Smuggler.

 

So is that worth analyzing?

 

I'd be curious to see what percentage of the game population is Jedi (Knight or Consular) compared to how many are Troopers or Smugglers.

 

The naked eye is probably not a good judge of this, but as I look around Republic Fleet, it seems to me (once again, not very scientific) that the majority of people I see are Smugglers or Troopers.

 

If Smuggler and Trooper have an overwhelming share of population (which we wouldn't know for sure unless Bioware released the numbers or a census was held) then wouldn't that suggest that players don't particularly like the Jedi or find them fun?

 

First impressions are pretty big, and my first impression (as well as my continued impressions in soloing a Guardian and Sentinel up to 20) is that the Jedi really don't stack up to the Trooper or Smuggler.

 

It's possible that Jedi hit their stride later in game. I've heard that anyway. But who would figure that out, when so much of the lower levels with Jedi are painful and not very fun?

 

While you want classes balanced at max level, they should also be equally fun to level, and no class should totally struggle and feel pain at any point, if they are designed properly.

 

I do understand the value of a first impression, and I think you have a valid concern there.

 

That being said, my post was meant to reflect that in an MMO it is simply not possible to have a game balanced across all levels, unless you resort to standardization which most folks do not like (i.e "All classes now get their 4 second interrupt at level 12 - it just has a different name").

 

To elaborate - MMO's are about gaining levels and strengthening your character through gear, skills, abilities, and practice. With that many variables, if you want real variety, there are going to be classes that are better at soloing, better at X level, worse at Y level, better at healing X man content, worse at tanking Y man content, and so forth. This is the price you pay for having true variety in the classes.

 

And if you'd like an example about homogenization - we can have a quick chat about the tanking classes in World of Warcraft.

 

Whether for better or worse - they are an example of the path homogenization leads to.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Anilon

[darthbuh]

I didn't get to see the video, so I can only speak from my personal experience.

 

I started with a Scoundrel, he's 42 on Belsavis right now. After I had the opportunity to run a few flashpoints with him, I DROPPED HIM DEAD. Why? It sucks having to be behind the target most of the time to use Back Blast and Flechette Round. Using Shoot First? Maybe 3-4 times, if your fellow players are sleepy and not chain pulling.

 

Threat is so hit-and-miss right now, maintaining a rear (or even flanking) position on targets is ridiculously hard. Tanks are running in circles trying to maintain threat on multiple targets, mobs are spinning around like tops.

 

So I started off a Sentinel. I'm on Nar Shaddaa right now at 22, and yes, I miss the control my Scoundrel had, being able to plan pulls while soloing and lapse into a poor (but present) healing mode when necessary. I've died more on this Sentinel than I ever did as a Scoundrel.

 

But at least I don't have to chase targets around in groups like a dog nipping at their ankles.

[Staavis_SC]

I do understand the value of a first impression, and I think you have a valid concern there.

 

That being said, my post was meant to reflect that in an MMO it is simply not possible to have a game balanced across all levels, unless you resort to standardization which most folks do not like (i.e "All classes now get their 4 second interrupt at level 12 - it just has a different name").

 

To elaborate - MMO's are about gaining levels and strengthening your character through gear, skills, abilities, and practice. With that many variables, if you want real variety, there are going to be classes that are better at soloing, better at X level, worse at Y level, better at healing X man content, worse at tanking Y man content, and so forth. This is the price you pay for having true variety in the classes.

 

And if you'd like an example about homogenization - we can have a quick chat about the tanking classes in World of Warcraft.

 

Whether for better or worse - they are an example of the path homogenization leads to.

 

Fair enough, and I tend to agree with you on the majority of your points.

 

However, the current difference between Jedi and Trooper/Smuggler (at least to me, in the lower levels) feels substantially more than the slight differences you point out in your post.

 

That's not me disagreeing with your post, but rather feeling it's a bit of a different issue in this case.

[Anilon]

Fair enough, and I tend to agree with you on the majority of your points.

 

However, the current difference between Jedi and Trooper/Smuggler (at least to me, in the lower levels) feels substantially more than the slight differences you point out in your post.

 

That's not me disagreeing with your post, but rather feeling it's a bit of a different issue in this case.

 

That makes sense. If it is a big enough issue (as you say it is) it deserves some review like you are asking for.

 

I guess I'll need to fire up my Sentinel earlier than expected and see for myself.

 

 

On an unrelated note: How refreshing to have an intelligent, non-insulting conversation on the forums with someone. *looks over shoulder* Are we in the Twilight Zone?

[Anelyn]

I don't know why you feel bad watching someone killing randoms in a pug game? Seriously those frappsed vids mean nothing. I can't care less if X or Y pawns nabs in random WZs or world pvp with buffs and consumables killing undergeared peps in 3 globals. Show me an ops / scoundrel fighting a sent using consumables and having equal gear lvl, and played by someone who is at least proficient with the class. Is way easier for SW / JK to generate resources than for smugglers / IA's to regen theirs.

 

When you will play in a premade, you will want classes who can keep dish the pain and CC / support 24/24, not one who blows all juice in 3 globals then have to take a wee to come back 1 min later. Mobility also plays a huge role in high end pvp. What do you prefer someone who can dish dps at range, or leap to targets to be in melee, or someone who has no way to remove snares or increase his movement speed except a talented 2 min vanish ability? What will your smugler / IA do when you have to drop a premade ball carrier after he gets knocked back and snared / rooted / CCed? Will your healers have the globals to spam dispell him (4.5s cd vs multitude of snares / roots who don't affect resolve bar)? He can't leap, he does 0 dmg from range (anything past 4m - melee and they are ticklish).

 

Get to 50, sort your gear, learn your class mechanics as well other classes so you know how to counter them, when to expect and how to react to their cds / abilities, then come back and tell us where did the big bad Ops / Scoundrel hit you :-)

[Staavis_SC]

On an unrelated note: How refreshing to have an intelligent, non-insulting conversation on the forums with someone. *looks over shoulder* Are we in the Twilight Zone?

 

Is that Rod Serling I see over in that corner yonder?