Jedi Sage - Balance vs Telekenetic

[MidnightsRequiem]

CUrrently I've just hit level 40. Love sage, having a blast with it, but I was curious, which tree is better for pveing and leveling? I've gone a bit of a hybrid, most points into balance with a few in tele, mostly for telekinetic wave. However I was curious as to if the top spells from either tree are worth going full into one or the other for? Any thoughts or suggestions?

[KennethHoover]

I am TK and it seems to be doing well for me in PVE. I am not as high level as you are, though, just 29.

[MidnightsRequiem]

Bump. Anyone higher leveled's opinions to Telekenetics? I'm usually leveling with 2 friends of mine that do alot of burst, and my current build seems more centered around Dots

[NogbadAC]

Telekinetics is fun, though the 13/28 build is theorized to be the DPS at the moment.

 

Basically in my opinion it comes down to do you like spamming disturbance for your regen or do you like spamming Tk Throw?

 

TK in my opinion probably has more burst. However, Balance spec, specifically the 13/28, seems to out damage it both in pve and pvp right now.

[neeman]

A previous thread on TK for your consideration: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=173593

 

FYI, switched to the 0/13/28 build soon after that post. More utility and it seems to me like more damage, especially with TK Momentum being broken.

[AdamLKvist]

Pure TK is ahead of pure Balance in PvE (TK is close to useless compared to balance in PvP though)

 

 

Some argue that a hybrid build is 'the' way to go right now. No combat logs will however make that quite problematic to actually prove other than the actual feel and limited numbers to it all.

[siruis]

Can someone here please post this 0/13/28 spec and also the best order to use moves/skills and thanks!

[xocgx]

I would like to see it as well. I'm only lvl 14, and have so far gone purely balanced, but if I had a good idea of this build you speak of, I would certainly plan for it!

[NogbadAC]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600ZfcM0dZcMfRsMkrc.1 is your standard 13/28.

 

 

basically you keep weaken mind up as much as possible, prioritize your PoM procs for mind crush over tk wave, I FiB on cooldown and fill in the gaps with tk throw. It's a very simplistic and honestly boring build to play. But the damage cannot be beat at this point in time by any other build.

 

Edit: It's also important to note that this build can suffer from force management issues. I've been testing it on raid content. I'm uncertain that I would recommend it for endgame.

Edited January 18, 2012 by NogbadAC

[EbbnFlow]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600ZfcM0dZcMfRsMkrc.1 is your standard 13/28.

 

 

basically you keep weaken mind up as much as possible, prioritize your PoM procs for mind crush over tk wave, I FiB on cooldown and fill in the gaps with tk throw. It's a very simplistic and honestly boring build to play. But the damage cannot be beat at this point in time by any other build.

 

^^ this. I leveled with this build and pvped for a week with it after I hit 50. I was always top damage but it was mind numbingly boring and shallow.

 

I went seer a few days later. The healing rotations have much more freedom, experimentation and less "8-year-old-button-spammer-syndrome" than the TK or balance damage counterparts. Granted it's healing, which is 10X harder than any damage class when it comes to maintaining an open field of vision (no tunnel vision), keeping one eye on your HP and one eye on your teammates, broken tab targeting, ctrl modifiers break the camera panning, keeping the node capper dotted, etc etc.

[Khadroth]

I went seer a few days later. The healing rotations have much more freedom, experimentation and less "8-year-old-button-spammer-syndrome" than the TK or balance damage counterparts. Granted it's healing, which is 10X harder than any damage class when it comes to maintaining an open field of vision (no tunnel vision), keeping one eye on your HP and one eye on your teammates, broken tab targeting, ctrl modifiers break the camera panning, keeping the node capper dotted, etc etc.

 

Neither of the dps trees are "8-year-old-button-spammer-syndrome" trees. We aren't wow mages who only had to press 3-4 buttons a fight.

 

Every dps spec has a variable rotation, dots to upkeep, procs to watch, cooldowns to mind, and in the case of TK regen buffs to maintain.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Khadroth

[EbbnFlow]

ok maybe I was a bit over exaggerating. However, spamming TK to get a PoM proc over and over is very boring.

[Archaegeo]

And while 13/28 might be more dps technically, its MUCH less survivability.

[Onager]

And while 13/28 might be more dps technically, its MUCH less survivability.

 

I don't like 13/28 anyways. 25/16 is a lot more my style, and has literally infinite sustain on its dps.

[Slivers]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600ZfcM0dZcMfRsMkrc.1 is your standard 13/28.

 

 

basically you keep weaken mind up as much as possible, prioritize your PoM procs for mind crush over tk wave, I FiB on cooldown and fill in the gaps with tk throw. It's a very simplistic and honestly boring build to play. But the damage cannot be beat at this point in time by any other build.

 

Edit: It's also important to note that this build can suffer from force management issues. I've been testing it on raid content. I'm uncertain that I would recommend it for endgame.

 

If the rotation is indeed narrowly focused on those few skills (WM, MC w/ PoM, FiB, and TKT), what purpose do the points in Upheaval and Telekinetic Wave serve other than "fillers", if any?

 

Thanks

[Sadtv]

And while 13/28 might be more dps technically, its MUCH less survivability.

 

Yea, here's what I've noticed playing all three of the main damage specs on my Sage (50) in PvE and PvP:

 

Full TK Spec (?/31/?)- In PvE this does very high single target damage (sustained and burst), as well as high AoE damage to help clear out any adds in boss fights or trash mobs. In PvP you have very high burst as long as you keep an eye on your procs and try to time your spikes to happen when both procs are active. The downside to full TK spec is you are not very mobile, so you do pretty limited damage if you are forced to kite. However, it is one of the few specs that allows you to pick up Kinetic Collapse, which can be great, especially in Huttball.

 

 

Full Balance Spec (?/?/31)- In PvE this does high single target damage with moderate AoE (Force in Balance is great but only hits 3 targets). This is by far the most survivable and most mobile spec. To my knowledge, immobilizes like Sever Force ignore resolve in PvP, which makes this spec have the most control as well (which is why it has become my go-to solo queue spec). Unfortunately, this spec has very little burst and is very susceptible to DoT removal. Since your damage is sustained it is much easier to heal through than TK spec burst. Because of this, your job turns more into applying pressure than outright killing in group fights.

 

 

Hybrid Spec (0/13/28)- You sacrifice some of the control from full Balance (the 2 second immobilize), but you pick up more burst (not quite as much as TK spec offers since you don't have the guaranteed Turbulence crits). This spec also has the most small group AoE burst (3 enemy groups) since you have both TK Wave and Force in Balance. TK Spec still does the most large group and sustained AoE since Quake damage procs Tidal Force.

 

 

 

 

It is a little difficult to tell exactly how full Balance DPS and Hybrid DPS compare to full TK in PvE. Full TK definitely "feels" like it does more damage because of the bigger numbers and graphics, I think the guaranteed crits on Turbulence combined with 50% bonus crit damage on your most used abilities do make it deal slightly more overall damage. But honestly it depends on how much you have to run around during the fight. The more you have to move, the more DPS full Balance Sages will do compared to the rest.

 

 

Really you should try all three specs in PvE and PvP before you decide which one is your favorite, but generally TK is for burst, Balance is for kiting and control, and Hybrid decent kiting with pretty good burst. All three specs do acceptable damage in PvE, and in PvP the best spec honestly depends on how good your group is at protecting you and whether you need burst damage or someone who can apply pressure. If you are in a group with 2 guardbot tanks and a pocket healer go TK and blow **** up, if you are solo queueing and tired of melee chasing you around every WZ go Balance, and if you need to be fairly mobile but don't need/want Sever Force for some reason or another go Hybrid spec.

[Slivers]

If the rotation is indeed narrowly focused on those few skills (WM, MC w/ PoM, FiB, and TKT), what purpose do the points in Upheaval and Telekinetic Wave serve other than "fillers", if any?

 

Thanks

 

To answer (hypothesize) my own answer:

 

I respce'd into balance (only level 27) and see that Force Wave is needed for PoM procs when MC is on cooldown. In the mean time, I'm using Disturbance for PoM procs if MC is on cooldown.

 

I'm also seeing Upheaval as being less of a "filler" skill and more of a "on the move" ability if other instants are on cooldown while moving.

 

Accurate or Slivers needs more sleep?!?

Edited January 20, 2012 by Slivers

[NogbadAC]

Correct. Upheaval are filler points, just to get further into the tree. You really rarely use project because of it's force inefficiency. Tk Wave on the other hand is not a filler. It is what you use your PoM procs on when Mind crush is on cooldown and represents a pretty decent bump in dps. The thing is MC is just a better use of the PoM proc and as a result get priority. Edited January 20, 2012 by NogbadAC

[Khadroth]

If the rotation is indeed narrowly focused on those few skills (WM, MC w/ PoM, FiB, and TKT), what purpose do the points in Upheaval and Telekinetic Wave serve other than "fillers", if any?

 

Thanks

 

Upheaval means you'll do more dmg on the move which is the only time you should be using project. There's a surprising amount of movement involved at PvE endgame.

 

TKwave, is for PoM procs either:

A.) When Mind Crush is already on cooldown (basically every other PoM proc).

B.) When there's AoE possibilities.

 

It prevents you from having to resort to using PoM on disturbance which is very crappy unspecced and barely a dps increase from just using another TKthrow.

[Corran]

i played mostly melee dps in my almost 8 years in wow end game raiding. from a rogue in vanilla to a ret paladin in bc (i was horde. never played alliance and have never even set foot in stormwind or ironforge in all this time) to a dk in wrath...

 

and then when icc hit i was asked to make my shadow priest alt my main for raiding due to the raid becoming melee heavy and my already having the legendary from icc.

 

for the last year of wrath untiil i fnially left wow just after rift launched i played the hell out of that shadow priest and enjoyed it more than anything else in that game. i havent enjoyed a class that much since my bard in torilmud in the mid 90's.

 

the spec i'm using is this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600ZfcMRd0MZcMfRsMkM.1 for the following reasons

 

1) sustainability - one movement heavy fights your tk throw is rarely allowed to channel fully. effusion goes a looong way towards helping this

 

2) i keep the +dot goodies

 

3) when psychic projection procs my tk throws do their dmg in 1.5s or faster. even on the most movement intensive fights you can find 1.5s to get that bad boy out. it's a lot like that one red dragon at the end of wrath with the lazers you had to rotate around..cant remember his name. i was the only spriest they would send into the shadow realm because i had no issue maintaining my full dps while moving once my haste allowed mind flay to get down to 1.7s

 

 

i'm sure the 13/28 build will eek out a bit more damage on a saurfang/patchwerk fight, but there doesnt appear to be any like that in this gme so far. (actually saurfang was punishing to casters)

[Slivers]

1) sustainability - one movement heavy fights your tk throw is rarely allowed to channel fully. effusion goes a looong way towards helping this

 

2) i keep the +dot goodies

 

3) when psychic projection procs my tk throws do their dmg in 1.5s or faster. even on the most movement intensive fights you can find 1.5s to get that bad boy out. it's a lot like that one red dragon at the end of wrath with the lazers you had to rotate around..cant remember his name. i was the only spriest they would send into the shadow realm because i had no issue maintaining my full dps while moving once my haste allowed mind flay to get down to 1.7s

 

 

i'm sure the 13/28 build will eek out a bit more damage on a saurfang/patchwerk fight, but there doesnt appear to be any like that in this gme so far. (actually saurfang was punishing to casters)

 

I'm a little confused on your comments for this build versus the standard 13/28 hybrid being suggested. You've traded off 2 seconds of additional Mind Crush damage along with a whopping 30% critical damage bonus on all Periodical abilities and FiB in order to have access to Effusson's Force cost savings. And contrary to your comment in "1)", I'm not sure how Effusion helps "channel fully" TK throw?

 

Although I agree with you comments regarding movement and DPS, I'm at a loss to how the 18/23 build increases DPS while moving over 13/28.

[Khadroth]

I'm a little confused on your comments for this build versus the standard 13/28 hybrid being suggested. You've traded off 2 seconds of additional Mind Crush damage along with a whopping 30% critical damage bonus on all Periodical abilities and FiB in order to have access to Effusson's Force cost savings. And contrary to your comment in "1)", I'm not sure how Effusion helps "channel fully" TK throw?

 

Although I agree with you comments regarding movement and DPS, I'm at a loss to how the 18/23 build increases DPS while moving over 13/28.

 

Well he screwed up from the fact that he didn't have to get rid of FiB.

 

The generally accepted PvE variant (that is, endgame where long fights make force an issue again) is 0/17/24, which still gives up the crit dmg and a second off MindCrush for infinite sustainability.

 

What he's refering to with the channel fully comment is the fact that movement often causes you to cancel a cast which really destroys your efficiency (TKthrow will only be self sustaining with all 4 dmg ticks). As such it's not that effusion helps you channel it, it's that effusion means you don't have to worry about this anymore, since it gives you practically infinite mana in combination with psychic barrier.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Khadroth

[ScramblesTD]

I prefer Balance over Telekinetic due to the amount of control it gives you during fights.

 

If I manage my CDs properly I can keep almost half the mobs in a group CC'd for most of the fight, and if the CC happens to break, I can fall back on the self healing that you get from it.

 

 

 

And the fact that pebble storm has no CD and causes your mana to regenerate is pretty sweet.

[Slivers]

The generally accepted PvE variant (that is, endgame where long fights make force an issue again) is 0/17/24, which still gives up the crit dmg and a second off MindCrush for infinite sustainability.

 

What he's refering to with the channel fully comment is the fact that movement often causes you to cancel a cast which really destroys your efficiency (TKthrow will only be self sustaining with all 4 dmg ticks). As such it's not that effusion helps you channel it, it's that effusion means you don't have to worry about this anymore, since it gives you practically infinite mana in combination with psychic barrier.

 

Thanks ... I had figured this was what was meant but am happy I wasn't confused or missing something

 

You are my new hero, Khadroth!

[Corran]

Well he screwed up from the fact that he didn't have to get rid of FiB.

 

The generally accepted PvE variant (that is, endgame where long fights make force an issue again) is 0/17/24, which still gives up the crit dmg and a second off MindCrush for infinite sustainability.

 

What he's refering to with the channel fully comment is the fact that movement often causes you to cancel a cast which really destroys your efficiency (TKthrow will only be self sustaining with all 4 dmg ticks). As such it's not that effusion helps you channel it, it's that effusion means you don't have to worry about this anymore, since it gives you practically infinite mana in combination with psychic barrier.

 

effusion, combined with psychic projection making your tk throw finish in 1.5s or faster with alacrity and get you back 48 force. as the ability costs 15 force with effusion up it's a small gain, can proc pom and makes it easier to use on the move.

 

the way i see it playing out is much like a raiding shadow priest

 

force suppresion up via fib

pom mindcrush

weaken mind

pom tk wave

psychic projection+effusion tk throw

effusion tk throw

effusion project

no proc tk throw

no proc project

 

 

 

the above is a priority (i'm prob missing something), not a rotation. pom proc should be used for mind crush if off cooldown, tk wave if not single or aoe doesnt matter. effusion is just icing for this cake and the only time you think about that tasty icing is when it procs at the same time as tk throw AND pom is not up.

 

sounds complicated on paper. in practice it's stupid easy - just like a shadow priest.