I'm afraid the Sniper Spreadsheet is quite operational.

[Tibbel]

On my spreadsheet it lists Datacrons Cunning as 1391, how is this worked out?

 

All the yellow cells for stats are open for you to define yourself. (In the default version I saved a little time with stat entry by just combining all the gear, datacron, and stim stats into one line rather than typing in each piece of gear individually.) If you want to assume you have 40 aim and 40 cunning from datacrons, just change the "Datacrons" line to have 40 in both of those columns.

[All_Under_Heaven]

Tagging this for later viewing.

[QisaBluevixen]

Well I *hate* you Tibbel! I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, but when I see things like this that obviously take far more intelligence to compile than I could possibly muster, it makes me feel inadequate! Curse you and your competence!

 

Guess I'll have to get by on pure looks now.

 

[TrueDND]

Well I *hate* you Tibbel! I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, but when I see things like this that obviously take far more intelligence to compile than I could possibly muster, it makes me feel inadequate! Curse you and your competence!

 

Guess I'll have to get by on pure looks now.

 

 

/lovethis

[Tibbel]

Well I *hate* you Tibbel! I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, but when I see things like this that obviously take far more intelligence to compile than I could possibly muster, it makes me feel inadequate! Curse you and your competence!

 

Guess I'll have to get by on pure looks now.

 

 

There is a certain attractiveness to shadowy silhouettes, especially ones that perform scientific testing for the community.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Tibbel

[TrueDND]

I am not trying to persuade anyone in any direction, but I felt this would be the best place to speak about it since the spreadsheet (which I also use. Thank you, Tibbel!) is all about abilities and Sniper details and attacks.

 

Aren't we all overlooking the usefulness of some of our abilities? I have been doing some testing of my own and noticing a couple things. Here is a link to my current build:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#400bsrddRoRgzZMIZb.1

 

When I started this game, I wanted to focus mostly on PvE. I ended up doing a lot of PvP at first, and finally found a guild to do the PvE that I wanted. But I digress. In doing dailies and watching my output, be it PvP or PvE, I have noticed that a lot of abilities seem to be quite overlooked by a majority of people when I do my research and compare it to the forums and the spreadsheet (Keep in mind, "majority" does not mean "everybody"). Two skills spring immediately to mind: Series of Shots and Suppressive Fire.

 

As a 50 Sniper, I am completely aware that we are subjected to standard armor mitigation. I am also aware that our hardest hitting and most important ability, Ambush, is our one ability that "penetrates" 40% armor when specced through MM ("penetrate" is in quotes due to some debate that Shatter Shot doesn't actually reduce armor by 20%. This has been brought up by some people, but not a majority). But all of our abilities, except for 4, only hit a single time. However, Orbital Strike, Series of Shots, and Suppressive Fire hit multiple times per target (OS 3 w/o 2 piece PvP set, SoS 4, SF 8), with only 2 of them subjective to interruption as they can be used out of cover. That leaves these abilities with the highest critical chance among all of our abilities.

 

Keep in mind, I am fully aware that these abilities won't crit 100% of the time, but for each individual hit is a separate crit chance. By adding up the damage, I have hit harder with SF than I have with Frag Grenades. Not to mention that SF, because it is an AoE, should also be subjected to the 15% increase by Explosive Engineering because it increases all AoE damage (This is, of course, debatable because it is still blaster fire, which is why I stated that it "should" be, rather than "is"). Of course, this is usually dependent on how many critical hits I have with SF, but I usually receive 4 critical hits at least with SF and it essentially uses less energy once its full animation has been completed (35 energy; 4.5 second channel, 5-6 energy regen. After a full channel, 20-24 energy has been recovered).

 

Me personally, I find SF very useful and still use it quite often, more in PvE than PvP of course. Frag Grenades is still very useful because the damage is done immediately rather than after 4.5 seconds, but if given the time SF will do more damage as long as you have a decent critical chance, which every Sniper at level 50 should already have.

 

Once again, I am not trying to persuade anyone. But I am wondering if anyone has taken this kind of information to heart? I am not asking for it to be put in the spreadsheet either because account for critical chance is just too much of a formula for a standard Excel spreadsheet to predict. I know it can be possible, but not needed for the purposes of the very good spreadsheet that Tibbel has provided for us. So, since I have noticed that this post also seems to have the least amount of trolling, I was wondering if I could get some positive and negative (without the need for bashing anyone) feedback on these types of abilities and their usefulness due to their increased crit chance due to multiple hits.

[Tibbel]

Orbital Strike, Series of Shots, and Suppressive Fire hit multiple times per target (OS 3 w/o 2 piece PvP set, SoS 4, SF 8), with only 2 of them subjective to interruption as they can be used out of cover. That leaves these abilities with the highest critical chance among all of our abilities.

 

Keep in mind, I am fully aware that these abilities won't crit 100% of the time, but for each individual hit is a separate crit chance. By adding up the damage, I have hit harder with SF than I have with Frag Grenades. Of course, this is usually dependent on how many critical hits I have with SF, but I usually receive 4 critical hits at least with SF...

 

While it is true that Suppressive Fire will almost always have at least one crit, it will also almost never have all crits. Meanwhile Frag Grenade is all or none as far as crits go (per target). By considering the average damage, including crits, it all works out in the end.

 

...and [suppressive Fire] essentially uses less energy once its full animation has been completed (35 energy; 4.5 second channel, 5-6 energy regen. After a full channel, 20-24 energy has been recovered).

 

Me personally, I find SF very useful and still use it quite often, more in PvE than PvP of course. Frag Grenades is still very useful because the damage is done immediately rather than after 4.5 seconds, but if given the time SF will do more damage as long as you have a decent critical chance, which every Sniper at level 50 should already have.

 

It's a 3.5-second channel. But even with that aside -- Yes, Suppressive Fire will do more damage over its duration than a Frag Grenade will (if the target stays within the AoE the whole time, if the channel isn't interrupted, and only to up to 3 targets; meanwhile Frag Grenade can't be interrupted and hits up to 5 targets immediately).

 

However, Suppressive Fire takes more than twice as long as Frag Grenade and almost twice as much energy. It doesn't do twice as much damage.

 

Once again, I am not trying to persuade anyone. But I am wondering if anyone has taken this kind of information to heart? I am not asking for it to be put in the spreadsheet either because account for critical chance is just too much of a formula for a standard Excel spreadsheet to predict. I know it can be possible, but not needed for the purposes of the very good spreadsheet that Tibbel has provided for us. So, since I have noticed that this post also seems to have the least amount of trolling, I was wondering if I could get some positive and negative (without the need for bashing anyone) feedback on these types of abilities and their usefulness due to their increased crit chance due to multiple hits.

 

The spreadsheet does indeed take crit chance and usage times into account.

 

Try it yourself:

1. Set the number of targets on the 'Targets' tab to 3 or 5 or whatever you want.
   
2. Choose Orbital Strike, Frag Grenade, Suppressive Fire, and Rifle Shot (along with whatever other abilities you want) into your priority list on the 'Abilities' tab.
   
3. Play around with AoE rotations to find one that does the most damage over a certain period of time or with a certain amount of energy.
   
4. Come back and tell us what you find! (Peer review is one of the centrally important pillars of good science.)

 

Thanks for your kind words about the spreadsheet.

 

And be sure to download the latest version from the link in the leading post or below in my signature.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Tibbel

[TrueDND]

For starters, just logged in and checked and the Channel time is 4.5 seconds. Said it on tooltip and I casted it as well in the lasted 2 minutes, so right back at ya. ;-)

 

Now back to the discussion:

 

While it is true that Suppressive Fire will almost always have at least one crit, it will also almost never have all crits. Meanwhile Frag Grenade is all or none as far as crits go (per target). By considering the average damage, including crits, it all works out in the end.

 

This was one of the things that I am pretty sure I mentioned. Maybe not in great detail, but I do mention that FG hit immediately as opposed to the SF. I should have mentioned that this ability is greater for PvE than PvP, and I apologize for not mentioning that. However, I find it very gratifying when a group stays in one spot for either SF or OS for the entire duration.

 

However, Suppressive Fire takes more than twice as long as Frag Grenade and almost twice as much energy. It doesn't do twice as much damage.

 

Although I did say that it does MORE damage, I did not say that it would do "twice as much" damage. Also, I am keeping in mind that that FG hits up to more targets than SF as well, but as I stated I have personally noticed that I seem to get at least 4 crits out of the 8 hits for SF on average.

 

The spreadsheet does indeed take crit chance and usage times into account.

 

Try it yourself:

 

Set the number of targets on the 'Targets' tab to 3 or 5 or whatever you want.

Choose Orbital Strike, Frag Grenade, Suppressive Fire, and Rifle Shot (along with whatever other abilities you want) into your priority list on the 'Abilities' tab.

Play around with AoE rotations to find one that does the most damage over a certain period of time or with a certain amount of energy.

Come back and tell us what you find! (Peer review is one of the centrally important pillars of good science.)

 

As soon as I downloaded the spreadsheet (last Friday) I started to upload my information and compared my ingame skills to the spreadsheet. I spent most of the weekend looking in to this at every chance I got, but I never added multiple targets to the spreadsheet because it says that multiple targets are not implemented yet. I didn't read all of the update notes, and I am aware that is my fault. I just downloaded the sheet and got to work on comparing the info from the sheet to my abilities. Everything looks pretty good so far, but I haven't thrown SF in to the mix because of the rare circumstances I would use it during a boss fight, as that is the situation I compared the spreadsheet too. However, when I am doing my dailies, this is where I will see the jarring differences between the 2 abilities.

 

As I stated, when I cast SF I account for the energy regen during the abilities channel time. When in cover, I will receive 24 back before moving into the next ability when casted at max energy (6 regen per sec) and count the natural effective cost as 11. Frag is 20, which is also its effective cost. I count the effective cost as the amount spent then the ability has been casted and when the ability has finished. For me, OS doesn't fall under this because once it is activated there is no stopping it. SoS and SF count under this because when the ability is activated, its effect lasts the full duration of the channel effect (hence, "natural effective cost").

 

But this is just me and my thinking and wanted the opinion of someone else about this. I am glad to have to not only have the OP reply, but the creator of the spreadsheet. Thanks for your feedback, Tibbel. I will continue to leave the sheet open on my PC and will continue to use it for a long time. I will check to see if there is an updated version as well in case I have an old one and will continue my own research into the class that I feel is one of the most unique classes of this game.

[Tibbel]

For starters, just logged in and checked and the Channel time is 4.5 seconds. Said it on tooltip and I casted it as well in the lasted 2 minutes, so right back at ya. ;-)

 

Wow, I could've sworn it was 3.5. That makes it even less useful than I thought. (That shows how little I use this ability.)

 

As I stated, when I cast SF I account for the energy regen during the abilities channel time. When in cover, I will receive 24 back before moving into the next ability when casted at max energy (6 regen per sec) and count the natural effective cost as 11. Frag is 20, which is also its effective cost. I count the effective cost as the amount spent then the ability has been casted and when the ability has finished. For me, OS doesn't fall under this because once it is activated there is no stopping it. SoS and SF count under this because when the ability is activated, its effect lasts the full duration of the channel effect (hence, "natural effective cost").

 

Unfortunately, considering an "effective cost" in which the energy regenerated over the ability's activation/channeling time is deducted from the energy cost actually causes longer abilities to look more appealing than shorter abilities. This analysis method falsely transfers ability usage time into a benefit rather than a cost.

 

If Suppressive Fire did its damage over 3.0 seconds instead of 4.5, then it would have a lower "effective cost" under this system -- however considering a 4.5-second period that contains 1 SF -vs- one that contains 1 SF + 1 Rifle Shot, then I don't think anyone will argue against the fact that a shorter channel gives higher DPS.

 

What's more useful is to look at ability energy cost independent of usage time (i.e. DPE. An ability's DPE is important for long encounters which last longer than it takes to burn a full energy bar.

 

Series of Shots is widely considered to be an energy-efficient ability (and rightfully so); but if you think about it, it's not efficient because it takes 3 seconds -- it's efficient because you basically get two abilities' worth of damage for the energy cost of one. It would clearly be an even stronger ability if it only took 1.5 seconds to channel all its damage.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Tibbel

[TrueDND]

Unfortunately, considering an "effective cost" in which the energy regenerated over the ability's activation/channeling time is deducted from the energy cost actually causes longer abilities to look more appealing than shorter abilities. This analysis method falsely transfers ability usage time into a benefit rather than a cost.

 

If Suppressive Fire did its damage over 3.0 seconds instead of 4.5, then it would have a lower "effective cost" under this system -- however considering a 4.5-second period that contains 1 SF -vs- one that contains 1 SF + 1 Rifle Shot, then I don't think anyone will argue against the fact that a shorter channel gives higher DPS.

 

What's more useful is to look at ability energy cost independent of usage time (i.e. DPE. An ability's DPE is important for long encounters which last longer than it takes to burn a full energy bar.

 

Series of Shots is widely considered to be an energy-efficient ability (and rightfully so); but if you think about it, it's not efficient because it takes 3 seconds -- it's efficient because you basically get two abilities' worth of damage for the energy cost of one. It would clearly be an even stronger ability if it only took 1.5 seconds to channel all its damage.

 

Now I am not saying that you are saying this exactly, but you make it sound like alacrity is actually quite favorable for our spec than what most people think. In any case, until damage meters become available my own research into these types of abilities won't be exact and I realize that most of what I say is considered hearsay. However, from playing other MMOs, I completely understand what you are saying in regards to ability lengths and how they seem more effective versus instant abilities.

 

Like I said before, I will continue to use your spreadsheet as it helps a lot with my own research of this class and its abilities.

[Tibbel]

Now I am not saying that you are saying this exactly, but you make it sound like alacrity is actually quite favorable...

 

The biggest problems with alacrity are:

• It only shortens some of our abilities.
  
• It doesn't shorten the cooldowns of any of our abilities except Ambush and Orbital Strike.
  
• The difference it makes is too small to actually gain us any time between cooldowns.

 

Of course for the choice between an ability that takes 1.5 seconds or one that takes 4.5 seconds, that's a far greater difference in activation time than we could ever gain through alacrity. Same goes for reducing an ability from 2.5 to 1.5s or from 3 to 2s, for example.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Tibbel

[TrueDND]

The biggest problems with alacrity are:

• It only shortens some of our abilities.
  
• It doesn't shorten the cooldowns of any of our abilities except Ambush and Orbital Strike.
  
• The difference it makes is too small to actually gain us any time between cooldowns.

 

Of course for the choice between an ability that takes 1.5 seconds or one that takes 4.5 seconds, that's a far greater difference in activation time than we could ever gain through alacrity. Same goes for reducing an ability from 2.5 to 1.5s or from 3 to 2s, for example.

 

Which I agree with after testing out different amounts of alacrity. So I will wait for damage meters and use what tools are currently available to me.

[XisscVekno]

Hey Tib, Thanks for all the hard work you've done so far.

 

I'm having an issue with your Sniper spreadsheet and Relics/Adrenals. It's not allowing me to change them in any way, which I need to since I use only one activation relic and the adrenal I use is much better than the default one listed. Every time I try and change these it just tells me I can't change protected cells even though they are yellow.

 

Also your rotation DPS calculator, is there any way I can get a better idea on how hot set this up right? Every time I start to mess with it my DPS "according to it" seems to go down, like it's not calculating CD's right or something.

 

 

Edit: nvm Figured out the DPS rotation part.

Edited February 28, 2012 by XisscVekno

[Tibbel]

Hey Tib, Thanks for all the hard work you've done so far.

 

I'm having an issue with your Sniper spreadsheet and Relics/Adrenals. It's not allowing me to change them in any way, which I need to since I use only one activation relic and the adrenal I use is much better than the default one listed. Every time I try and change these it just tells me I can't change protected cells even though they are yellow.

 

Unfortunately, I can't reproduce this. Iv'e downloaded the file to two different computers and they both allow me to edit that section without any issue.

 

If you want, you can try unlocking the sheet. Make sure you have the 'Character' tab active, then go to the Review menu at the top and select "Unprotect Sheet" -- there's no password to unprotect it. This will let you edit any cell on that sheet, so just be careful not to change anything you don't want changed.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Tibbel

[Tibbel]

Both the Sniper/Gunslinger Spreadsheet and the Marksmanship Sniper/Sharpshooter Gunslinger Compendium have been updated for Patch 1.2!

 

Visit SWTOR-Mechanics (aka SithWarrior.com) to review the updated compendium or follow link in my signature to download the new version of the spreadsheet.

[onfireguy]

Both the Sniper/Gunslinger Spreadsheet and the Marksmanship Sniper/Sharpshooter Gunslinger Compendium have been updated for Patch 1.2!

 

Visit SWTOR-Mechanics (aka SithWarrior.com) to review the updated compendium or follow link in my signature to download the new version of the spreadsheet.

Thank you so. very. much. Your contributions to this game/community has helped me become a better Sniper.

[wessik]

tibbel thanks for this!

 

statement:

the stat weigh item comparisons does not have expertise in it to compare things...

 

questions:

 

1. with the new expertise changes in 1.2, my specific question is will the reuseable hyper battle adrenal (450 power) be better still or will the warzone adrenal (+15% expertise) be better?

 

2. what about a 41 power vs 41 expertise crystal, which is better?

Edited April 12, 2012 by wessik

[Poe_]

Thanks Tibbel, really well done, as usual.

[Tibbel]

tibbel thanks for this!

 

statement:

the stat weigh item comparisons does not have expertise in it to compare things...

 

Good point. I'll add that into the next update.

 

 

questions:

 

1. with the new expertise changes in 1.2, my specific question is will the reuseable hyper battle adrenal (450 power) be better still or will the warzone adrenal (+15% expertise) be better?

 

2. what about a 41 power vs 41 expertise crystal, which is better?

 

The adrenal-vs-adrenal debate should be pretty easy to figure out. Find how much damage you do without anything, and then find how much you'd do with +450 power. Compare that with the flat +15% that the warzone adrenal adds to see which is better.

 

For comparing the crystals, that'll be easily doable with the item comparison tool when I get that added in.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Tibbel

[wessik]

Good point. I'll add that into the next update.

 

The adrenal-vs-adrenal debate should be pretty easy to figure out. Find how much damage you do without anything, and then find how much you'd do with +450 power. Compare that with the flat +15% that the warzone adrenal adds to see which is better.

 

For comparing the crystals, that'll be easily doable with the item comparison tool when I get that added in.

 

thanks! you're the best!