Jedi vs Adeptus Astartes (space marines)

[Deathforged]

Regarding the Eclipse, and naval combat in general, I think it boils down to how Void Shields compare to Ray Shields. Considering the Empire's track record of having Capital Ships destroyed by fighter teams or boarding parties, i'm sure a couple Space Marine assault boats could neutralize anything the Empire/Republic has in short order.

 

Really good point. A single boarding torpedo of marines would capture or destroy a ship crewed by mostly men.

[Deathforged]

 

EDIT: May have miscalculated how many battleships are in the Imperial Navy - I blame poor documentation. They're a lot more common then I thought they were, but nowhere near as common as lesser vessels. Also added some re-adjustments (again, I had to blow through bad documentation, my apologies). Trying to be objective here, while trying to get across that the Imperial Navy has far more then enough firepower to drop one supership (they drop Space Hulks on a regular basis, for one - moon+ sized balls of junk).

 

Still irrelevant in an infantry vs. infantry fight, though.

 

The imperium has been fighting off chaos, rebels, and an entire galaxy of aliens for over 10,000 years. If it could focus all its man power and navy on a single enemy it would utterly destroy them.

[Foxfirega]

Regarding the Eclipse, and naval combat in general, I think it boils down to how Void Shields compare to Ray Shields. Considering the Empire's track record of having Capital Ships destroyed by fighter teams or boarding parties, i'm sure a couple Space Marine assault boats could neutralize anything the Empire/Republic has in short order.

 

Just did some info-hunting and math to further elaborate how naval combat would work out, actually, and I can firmly state that the range on Star Wars ships is absolutely and utterly inconsequential compared to 40k equivlants.

 

In RotJ, the Rebel fleet initiated combat (at maximum range) with the Executor (a Super Star Destroyer) at a few thousand kilometers, getting ever closer. The Executor also didn't open fire until at least this range.

 

Your standard Imperial battleship has an effective maximum range of 52 to 60 thousand kilometers, with anything closer (ie: a few thousand kilometers) being relegated to 'unloading ALL THE THINGS' and about point-defense weaponary/boarding party range, which is generally not where you want to be with them.

 

Also squashed the speed argument for fleet actions, as well. A Star Destroyer moves at 2.3g (2.3 atmospheres), which is the same speed the Avenger class Grand Cruiser moves at, making any battle at sublight speeds clearly in the advantage of the Imperium through range alone. Imperial Fighters were on-par with the sub-light speeds of the Milennium Falcon and other Star Wars fighter craft.

 

Who has the better navy again?

[anairien]

Sorry, but the following quotes make Hyperspace sound very similar to the Warp (though less dangerous, at least at the time.)

aside from the fact that how similar one thing may be to another when they are not the same thing, they are not very similar at all. your quote says the hyperdrive causes a space time ripple effect, with the ship riding that effect to its destination, using a shield technology to remain attached to the ripple for as long as needed.

 

travelling through the warp is rather different-it is infact far more comparable to sailing ships travelling across earths oceans, with the caveat that every fish in the sea, the air and the sea itself are actively trying to kill you and make your soul its plaything.

 

the warp is an entirely seperate dimension that you have to enter and traverse at your own peril. hyperdrive is something you can make your course calculations on before you start, and be quite sure you will get there at a certain time in a certain way.

 

 

Furthermore, if the Republic/Empire maintains the speed advantage, it boils down to hit and run versus attrition.

 

Regarding the Eclipse, and naval combat in general, I think it boils down to how Void Shields compare to Ray Shields. Considering the Empire's track record of having Capital Ships destroyed by fighter teams or boarding parties, i'm sure a couple Space Marine assault boats could neutralize anything the Empire/Republic has in short order.

 

as fox points out, sw weaponry is comparatively short ranged, and in sublight terms not any faster than imperial ships:

 

 

 

 

Also squashed the speed argument for fleet actions, as well. A Star Destroyer moves at 2.3g (2.3 atmospheres), which is the same speed the Avenger class Grand Cruiser moves at, making any battle at sublight speeds clearly in the advantage of the Imperium through range alone. Imperial Fighters were on-par with the sub-light speeds of the Milennium Falcon and other Star Wars fighter craft.

 

Who has the better navy again?

 

 

the point i was making in this regard is that the speed advantage of hyperdrive allows sw forces to engage at will. they can use the (compared to 40kftl) highly exact nature of hyperdrive to their considerable advantage, assuming they have prior knowledge of the location and disposition of 40k assets. failing that they can run with impunity.

[Foxfirega]

the point i was making in this regard is that the speed advantage of hyperdrive allows sw forces to engage at will. they can use the (compared to 40kftl) highly exact nature of hyperdrive to their considerable advantage, assuming they have prior knowledge of the location and disposition of 40k assets. failing that they can run with impunity.

 

So can the Tau and Eldar, both of whom have FTL as good or better then SW has shown (the Webway is far more reliable then the Warp, and the Tau have actual straight-up FTL going for them and don't use the Warp at all, period; whether it's faster or not is debatable, both are FAR more reliable and that's the case here).

 

Being able to run doesn't win you wars - you can do limited guerilla engagements, yes, but at some point it's going to come down to an actual fleet engagement and the one thing that both the Eldar and the Tau know is that if it comes down to that, they have already lost that planet. They have no hope of beating the Imperium in a straight-up fleet engagement.

 

The only people that can regularly compete is Chaos, and that's because a grand majority of their stuff is straight-ripped from the Imperium itself. And even then, commanders on both side know that a slugfest is going to get them all of nowhere.

 

If the SW universe started a war with just the Imperium of Man, the Imperium would crush it through sheer volume, or through attrition that they can actually afford to go through (whereas the SW universe cannot). The Imperium would wage a war on a scale that has never before been waged prior to the Yuuzhan Vong showing up, and the fun factoid there is that they've repelled similar invasions to that themselves (eventually - again, they win a lot of things through raw attrition).

 

Again, though, this all belongs in the other 40k vs. SW thread, as THIS thread is whether the Jedi or Space Marines would win in a ground engagement (from what the OP has stated). I've already stated my feelings on that, though. :U

 

EDIT: Documentation hates me. :U Apparently Tau FTL does utilize the Warp, but through a series of jumps that 'skims' it rather then goes full-on into it. It's slower then normal, but they're also a lot harder to detect and far more reliable because they spend so little time in there (meaning any deviations are manageable). Safer and more reliable, but slower. Eldar, though, are legitimately faster/perfectly reliable via the Webway. The Necron also access the Webway by brute-forcing it (instead of using legitimate portals), and have all of the advantages (with the disadvantage that they have to use shorter jumps, as the Webway closes their forced passages rather quickly).

 

Seriously, I really apologize for my inability to find things properly documented. :| Makes discussion so much harder.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Foxfirega

[anairien]

So can the Tau and Eldar, both of whom have FTL as good or better then SW has shown (the Webway is far more reliable then the Warp, and the Tau have actual straight-up FTL going for them and don't use the Warp at all, period; whether it's faster or not is debatable, both are FAR more reliable and that's the case here).

 

Being able to run doesn't win you wars - you can do limited guerilla engagements, yes, but at some point it's going to come down to an actual fleet engagement and the one thing that both the Eldar and the Tau know is that if it comes down to that, they have already lost that planet. They have no hope of beating the Imperium in a straight-up fleet engagement.

 

The only people that can regularly compete is Chaos, and that's because a grand majority of their stuff is straight-ripped from the Imperium itself. And even then, commanders on both side know that a slugfest is going to get them all of nowhere.

 

If the SW universe started a war with just the Imperium of Man, the Imperium would crush it through sheer volume, or through attrition that they can actually afford to go through (whereas the SW universe cannot). The Imperium would wage a war on a scale that has never before been waged prior to the Yuuzhan Vong showing up, and the fun factoid there is that they've repelled similar invasions to that themselves (eventually - again, they win a lot of things through raw attrition).

 

Again, though, this all belongs in the other 40k vs. SW thread, as THIS thread is whether the Jedi or Space Marines would win in a ground engagement (from what the OP has stated). I've already stated my feelings on that, though. :U

 

EDIT: Documentation hates me. :U Apparently Tau FTL does utilize the Warp, but through a series of jumps that 'skims' it rather then goes full-on into it. It's slower then normal, but they're also a lot harder to detect and far more reliable because they spend so little time in there (meaning any deviations are manageable). Safer and more reliable, but slower. Eldar, though, are legitimately faster/perfectly reliable via the Webway. The Necron also access the Webway by brute-forcing it (instead of using legitimate portals), and have all of the advantages (with the disadvantage that they have to use shorter jumps, as the Webway closes their forced passages rather quickly).

 

Seriously, I really apologize for my inability to find things properly documented. :| Makes discussion so much harder.

 

the webway is very specific in where you can go with it. if you want to go somewhere new you need to use the warp normally, then set up a portal. the tau ftl is exceedingly slow-as i understand it they make very, very short jumps and it takes them quite a while.

 

being able to run at will did the rebel alliance fine. irl it worked fine for the vietnamese and afghans quite recently too.

[Foxfirega]

the webway is very specific in where you can go with it. if you want to go somewhere new you need to use the warp normally, then set up a portal. the tau ftl is exceedingly slow-as i understand it they make very, very short jumps and it takes them quite a while.

 

being able to run at will did the rebel alliance fine. irl it worked fine for the vietnamese and afghans quite recently too.

 

It worked fine for the Rebel Alliance because the Empire couldn't mobilize enough to actually stop them (as before the Death Star, they weren't worth the effort of full mobilization, a fact that changed after the destruction of the first Death Star, as shown by the full-on war) and because the technology between the two were similar, as were the military tactics (a lot of the Rebel Alliance being made up of former Republic/Empire officers). That's not going to save them against the Imperium, who both can and will mobilize in some pretty extreme force, have technology that exceeds them in a number of cases (better and longer range firepower, far better ground weaponary [Titans], and a certain willingness to outright obliterate things from orbit when a ground engagement doesn't do anything for them that is considered a horrible atrocity for even the Empire) that makes the comparison not work so well.

 

Even the Rebels knew that there were some engagements that they just could not run from, and without Plot armor to back them up (they got extremely lucky in both Death Star incidents), they knew full well that they were going to lose those engagements (Ackbar alludes to taking on the Star Destroyers in RotJ being outright suicide, to which Lando's only counter is that they'd last longer then against the Death Star; The Battle of Yavin was going to be a straight-up losing engagement and would have quashed the Rebellion entirely with one shot, but for Luke's lucky shot - because the Death Star went in without any support whatsoever).

 

Actual real-war comparisons aren't going to work, either - Afghanistan was an engagement the USA actually won (eventually) through superior firepower/tactics, and Vietnam was only not won because the most efficient forms of enemy removal (that the Imperium of Man uses on a regular basis) are considered unethical and are things we don't generally do ('scorched earth' tactics). Even at the time, the widespread napalm bombing was heavily, and correctly from an ethics standpoint, lobbied against for being inhumane and doing far too much damage.

 

The Imperium carpet bombs things as an effective shock tactic specifically to break morale, uses flamethrowers constantly against things they know are humanoid (or even other humans), employs autocannons against infantry (it's a war crime for any UN member nation, as is the use of flamethrowers), frequently uses biological agents when necessary (war crime), and any number of other things that would get them (correctly) called monsters by polite society if they weren't taken in the context of a) a game and b) an utter, dystopian future from a society that lives and breathes war every moment of it's existance just to survive in a galaxy that wants nothing more then to eliminate it utterly and complete.

 

Nevermind that your entire argument is a straw-man and a poor one. :U And in the wrong thread!

[Waywardpaladin]

Fox, you make me sad. The Tau do use the Warp, they do not have genuine FTL. They 'skim' the Warp though, which makes them slower than the Empire. It has been a major hindrance to their expansion, and was one of the things they tried to solve by experimenting with the Warp in the last world campaign, but since they only ranked in the middle, they decided that further Warp research was 'no place for the Greater Good'.

 

The Empire is this massive bloated and flailing thing. They Warp causes Crusades to go hundreds of years off targets, information is a spurious thing. Census data is out of date, orders go out to legions that no longer exist. The sheer momentum from the Crusades are pretty much the only thing keeping it going, and the authors themselves have declared it a dying and doomed structure.

 

The Necrons were the only ones with True FTL, and even that now has been retconned in their new Codex to them just hacking into the Webway. Sad times.

 

Mostly I think the Empire will lose because they're morons. Their military tactics are terrible. DRIVE CLOSER SO I CAN HIT IT WITH MY SWORD works great in some stylized Grimdark fetish environ I suppose, but terrible when you're trying to make sense of anything. Their weapons act on ranged that a man can run cover easily. Modern warfare at that point should be taken care of from ranges where you don't even really SEE your opponent with your own eyes, we're getting fairly close to that already in our own world with our feeble technology.

 

Also, the Marines were created to be resistant to the Warp. Assuming the Force is not the Warp, especially since it is generated by in-universe bacteria the Marines would have no resistance to the Warp. That being said, the Jedi would then be unlikely to manipulate any Warp energy being thrown at them either.

 

So, Star Wars universe has something like the Suncrusher hyperdrive into the solar system, fire a missle into Sol, the Emperor dies, and without the Astronomicon the Empire can't navigate anywhere and collapses. GG.

[Foxfirega]

Fox, you make me sad. The Tau do use the Warp, they do not have genuine FTL. They 'skim' the Warp though, which makes them slower than the Empire. It has been a major hindrance to their expansion, and was one of the things they tried to solve by experimenting with the Warp in the last world campaign, but since they only ranked in the middle, they decided that further Warp research was 'no place for the Greater Good'.

 

Yeah, I touched on that in an edit. :/ I'm partially at fault, to be sure, but most of that was due to documentation errors in what I was using for research. Still, their FTL while being slower, is still more reliable then what the Imperium uses and a lot safer. Eldar Webways are still the closest analogue to what the Republic uses (both in that a 'pathway' needs to be charted or explored from any one location to another, and that it's fast and reliable). So I had at least half of that statement correct. :U

 

The Empire is this massive bloated and flailing thing. They Warp causes Crusades to go hundreds of years off targets, information is a spurious thing. Census data is out of date, orders go out to legions that no longer exist. The sheer momentum from the Crusades are pretty much the only thing keeping it going, and the authors themselves have declared it a dying and doomed structure.

 

'Dying and doomed' is not equivlant to 'dead' - the thing to remember is that 40k is a dark, dystopian setting at it's onset. Anyone that thought that the Eldar, Tau, or Imperium were going to survive to eventually 'win' was just fooling themselves. The story has always ended with 'Chaos Wins'. The 'meat' of the story, though, is that nobody is going down without a fight. The Imperium may not be able to hold off the things trying to tear it apart forever... but they're more then capable of dragging this out for another eon or two. They have more then enough resources to buy them that, and still make power-grabs of their own.

 

The Imperium, by itself, could crush the SW universe, and they're the underdogs. Any other comparison would be outright unfair to the SW universe (which is not equipped for the methods of war depicted in the 40k universe, at all; And why should it be? It's a drama/story-focused space fantasy with a core of idealism. Entirely different storytelling and logistics then a satirical excuse for a tabletop miniatures wargame. The problem is in taking EITHER bit too seriously, which is beyond the scope of both settings).

 

Mostly I think the Empire will lose because they're morons. Their military tactics are terrible. DRIVE CLOSER SO I CAN HIT IT WITH MY SWORD works great in some stylized Grimdark fetish environ I suppose, but terrible when you're trying to make sense of anything. Their weapons act on ranged that a man can run cover easily. Modern warfare at that point should be taken care of from ranges where you don't even really SEE your opponent with your own eyes, we're getting fairly close to that already in our own world with our feeble technology.

 

See above comment on dystopian satires. Specifically, the entire core concept on 40k lore was a satire on the war engine of the Soviet Union, with splashes of other similarly dark things where it made sense or people weren't aware of that fact and attributed other things to it entirely. As such, most of the engagements are still presented in only a coincidentally modern fashion, with the major focus being the emphasis of brutal trench warfare present in both WWII and capable of during the Cold War era.

 

The fact that it makes no modern sense doesn't surprise me, and I have to wonder if your opinion on things like, say, ground engagements in both the Original Trilogy and the Prequels (and even this game itself) is similar in that with technology so far advanced we shouldn't be seeing the kind of engagements we are. :U

 

Also, the Marines were created to be resistant to the Warp. Assuming the Force is not the Warp, especially since it is generated by in-universe bacteria the Marines would have no resistance to the Warp. That being said, the Jedi would then be unlikely to manipulate any Warp energy being thrown at them either.

 

Not going to debate that point any. I see that more as coming down to a wash on both sides.

 

So, Star Wars universe has something like the Suncrusher hyperdrive into the solar system, fire a missle into Sol, the Emperor dies, and without the Astronomicon the Empire can't navigate anywhere and collapses. GG.

 

More likely, it would attempt to fire a missle into Sol, but the second it dropped out of hyperspace it would be targetted, identified as 'alien', and then suffering from the massive overcompensation and paranoia that is Sol's defensive platforms (including the Adeptes Mechanicus, who would want the heck out of that just for the FTL), and likely be shut down through ECM.

 

That's what gets me about Star Wars, honestly - where the heck is all the ECM technology, that lets them be junked up by missles in the first place? Even the Imperium has ECMs, and just huge 'No' fields/shielding, what have you. Terra is not exactly vulnerable to stuff like this, or as I brought up in the other thread where this argument is even debatable (how many times am I going to have to say that, anyway? ), Horus would have gotten far further then he did.

 

If it were as simple as dropping in and firing off a cyclonic torpedo, Terra would be a blasted husk.

 

Now forget all that rubbish, let's get back on topic with examining the field capabilities of the average Jedi and the average Space Marine. :|

[Bobinator]

angry marines would punch these *********** space monk hippie ******* in the balls and **** so hard they'll start chewing on pubic hair! Edited January 18, 2012 by Bobinator

[Foxfirega]

...well, yes, but they do that to everyone.

[anairien]

It worked fine for the Rebel Alliance because the Empire couldn't mobilize enough to actually stop them (as before the Death Star, they weren't worth the effort of full mobilization, a fact that changed after the destruction of the first Death Star, as shown by the full-on war) and because the technology between the two were similar, as were the military tactics (a lot of the Rebel Alliance being made up of former Republic/Empire officers). That's not going to save them against the Imperium, who both can and will mobilize in some pretty extreme force, have technology that exceeds them in a number of cases (better and longer range firepower, far better ground weaponary [Titans], and a certain willingness to outright obliterate things from orbit when a ground engagement doesn't do anything for them that is considered a horrible atrocity for even the Empire) that makes the comparison not work so well.

 

Even the Rebels knew that there were some engagements that they just could not run from, and without Plot armor to back them up (they got extremely lucky in both Death Star incidents), they knew full well that they were going to lose those engagements (Ackbar alludes to taking on the Star Destroyers in RotJ being outright suicide, to which Lando's only counter is that they'd last longer then against the Death Star; The Battle of Yavin was going to be a straight-up losing engagement and would have quashed the Rebellion entirely with one shot, but for Luke's lucky shot - because the Death Star went in without any support whatsoever).

 

Actual real-war comparisons aren't going to work, either - Afghanistan was an engagement the USA actually won (eventually) through superior firepower/tactics, and Vietnam was only not won because the most efficient forms of enemy removal (that the Imperium of Man uses on a regular basis) are considered unethical and are things we don't generally do ('scorched earth' tactics). Even at the time, the widespread napalm bombing was heavily, and correctly from an ethics standpoint, lobbied against for being inhumane and doing far too much damage.

 

The Imperium carpet bombs things as an effective shock tactic specifically to break morale, uses flamethrowers constantly against things they know are humanoid (or even other humans), employs autocannons against infantry (it's a war crime for any UN member nation, as is the use of flamethrowers), frequently uses biological agents when necessary (war crime), and any number of other things that would get them (correctly) called monsters by polite society if they weren't taken in the context of a) a game and b) an utter, dystopian future from a society that lives and breathes war every moment of it's existance just to survive in a galaxy that wants nothing more then to eliminate it utterly and complete.

 

Nevermind that your entire argument is a straw-man and a poor one. :U And in the wrong thread!

 

well-i dont remember any mention of the empire struggling to mobilise firstly.

 

secondly, you are assuming one side would decide not to mobilise to 100% capacity whilst the other would, without providing any reason whatsoever for it.

 

thirdly, the battle of endor is a fight they cannot run from solely because they got stupid and fell into a really obvious trap. you dont deserve the chance to run away when you go with the assumption that the emperor visiting his superweapon isnt going to be escorted by a whole lot of reasons not to go on with your attack. as you say plot armour wins the day.

 

fourthly, "the usa" (i assume you mean the coalition of allied forces lead by the usa, but i wouldnt be entirely surprised if you forgot the us has gotten help for all such actions since vietnam) didnt win afghanistan. it decided it had won and then packed up before the fighting was finished (it is still ongoing). in addition to this afghanistan has something of a history of leaving superpowers battered and bloodied and running for the door. the us is only the latest in a line that runs for thousands of years.

as to vietnam, your comment smells of trying to find an excuse for losing that doesnt sound like "we lost the will to fight and there-for lost".

 

as to imperial tactics-air superiority is great, but the only instance of a straight up fight in the star wars movies is hoth-where the empire cannot use its air forces against the rebels due to the shield, and the rebels air-units are already under that umbrella. use of autocannons cannot be a war crime because they do not exist. and we have, in this very game, instances of biological warfare and the use of fire as a weapon of war. so what is your point?

 

and as to strawmen, an analogy regarding stones and glass houses springs to mind.

 

but, to humour you, imperial (40k) capital ships are typically rated as capable of dishing out the equivalent of tens to hundreds of gigatons (i use tonnage because it tends to make more sense to people generally, thanks to the description of nuclear weaponry in tnt-equivalence) of explosive force per salvo, almost entirely in broadsides to port and starboard, with a fraction being forward facing.

 

sw turbolaser blasts (individual ones) can from the movies be calculated to have the explosive force of roughly 60 megatons, based on how quickly asteroids of a certain size are vaporised in esb. warships in star wars carry a hell of a lot of these, and they are not the primary ship to ship armament. we see these turbolasers firing roughly once every second in anh for point defence (which the rebels explicitly indicate they are not good for) and once every few seconds in esb, which provides a lower cumulative effect of 1800mtons or a higher of 3600mtons per minute per turbolaser, if we assume a standardised weapon platform. this translates to between 1.7 and 3.6 gigatons per minute cumulative explosive force per turbolaser.

 

these numbers, compared to the 40k numbers are certainly comparable for raw firepower, though as you have pointed out range is a big factor. however, as i said in my previous post the nature of hyperdrive allows for a capable sw commander to jump his squadron at close range to the 40k forces, unlease a salvo fully capable of damaging the imperial ships and then cutting and running, using the momentum from the hyper-jump to pull out of the 40k capital ships firing arc before jumping back into hyperspace before significant retaliation from the 40k force. or they could, again assuming they have reasonable knowledge of the 40k fleets dispositions (no sane military commander would attack an enemy if they do not know the enemy's strengths and weaknesses) they may be able to jump behind/past the 40k ships, thus either ignoring them or opening up an opportunity to rake the enemies very vulnerable engines.

[Foxfirega]

Not a bit of which is on-topic, though as I've stated numerous times, there's a thread for just that sort of discussion.

 

:U I'm gonna stop contributing to this thread going off-topic any more then it already has, and fully willing to accept my full part of the blame for it doing so by bringing up counterpoints to that nature.

 

I'll stop setting up scarecrows here.

[Khazius]

Back on topic:

 

If a Jedi is in tune enough with the force to predict a Space Marine's movements, and assuming ceramite doesn't act like cortosis (i.e. lightsabres are power weapons), and the Jedi managed to face off against a single Space Marine, the Jedi could probably decapitate the marine.

 

Against amateur Jedi, a Space Marine would dodge the first strikes (recognizing a lightsabre as a power weapon), and pistol whip the Jedi so hard he would be jelly.

 

Considering Space Marine's never fight alone, they would mow down a Jedi before one even got close to their fellow battle-brothers.

 

Against a marine that does fight alone, i.e. a Captain, Chapter Master, Chaplain, or Librarian... they all have invulnerable saves, and the Jedi would likely end up with a serious case of skull-crushed-by-powerfist.

[Foxfirega]

Back on topic:

 

If a Jedi is in tune enough with the force to predict a Space Marine's movements, and assuming ceramite doesn't act like cortosis (i.e. lightsabres are power weapons), and the Jedi managed to face off against a single Space Marine, the Jedi could probably decapitate the marine.

 

Would a Jedi go for the kill-shot immediately, though? That's my big question. A Sith would, sure (and that would even the odds a little), but I think the first instinct for an average Knight would be to disable first and then try and work it out. Something that a Space Marine wouldn't really be too inconvenienced by (just means he gets a cybernetic arm later).

 

I do grant that one closer to the Dark Side would probably react a bit more hostile, or if they had sufficient reason to do so (even Obi-Wan only cut people's arms off in the cantina on Mos Eisley, and immediately dropped the engagement soon after). That might adjust the numbers a little, but the range advantage alone would still net a solid victory overall for the Marine (current data: 170 vs. 130, which is 25% in favor of the Marine - this would push it closer to 10 or 15%).

 

Against amateur Jedi, a Space Marine would dodge the first strikes (recognizing a lightsabre as a power weapon), and pistol whip the Jedi so hard he would be jelly.

 

That really plays into it a bit as well - the Space Marine is trained to recognize and deal with new threats like this constantly. I'm not sure how much the 'What the heck is that?' factor would play into the Jedi side of the equation here, and therefore didn't give them a penalty for it. Gotta admit, a 7' tall mini-tank rushing at you like lightning while shouting something about an emperor is fairly intimidating (by design, no less).

 

Still, as that's hard to quantify, I didn't levy a penalty for it.

 

Considering Space Marine's never fight alone, they would mow down a Jedi before one even got close to their fellow battle-brothers.

 

Against a marine that does fight alone, i.e. a Captain, Chapter Master, Chaplain, or Librarian... they all have invulnerable saves, and the Jedi would likely end up with a serious case of skull-crushed-by-powerfist.

 

Fairly true, but I don't think this makes the argument very fair. A Librarian, Captain, or Chaplain is a fair bit above your average Jedi Knight in terms of capability. Even a Lone Wolf (Space Wolves chapter, specially trained to do exactly what the name implies - go in alone and do what they have to do) isn't exactly 'average' in terms of the chapter or Space Marines in general (these are guys that aren't trusted with leadership roles because they're ill-suited for them, but that even the Space Wolves trust enough to send off to do things by themselves. And they have the stats to back it up).

 

In keeping it fair, I cut it back down to just the average Space Marine, who still is a fairly 'elite' enemy type for the most part. But then again... so are the Jedi.

[Daddy_Max]

An Eclipse would decimate the whole Imperial Navy

 

Well, in Battlefleet Gothic Imperium pretty much loses in everything but frontal assaults, plus distance penalties, so they are fat frags for everyone else, except maybe Orks.

Size doesn't really matter here, it's maneuver that wins + engagement distance. Plus Star Wars have mosquito fleets, like Rebel Alliance had, that are to be very effective against giant ships with no force fields and fighter cover. So I dare to say, that SW Imperial\Republic or joint fleet beats the Imperium of Man, but against other races - no idea.

[Besieged]

Lots of excellent words I read in their entirety...

 

+10 for Foxfirega.

 

Between everything he said and what others have stated, I will try not to duplicate, but I have to plainly give the edge in any scenario to the Space Marines. The WH40k universe is far older, more violent and just plain darker and bloodier than anything Lucas or his ghostwriters have dreamed of except perhaps in nightmares they tried desperately to forget in the morning. The mythology of the SW universe just isn't prepared to come to grips with anything like the horrors of Slaanesh and Nurgle, which every Space Marine grows up knowing he will have to face head on someday.

 

The two universes really simply aren't comparable, and the Space Marines - especially, * forbid, Terminators - are combat monstrosities the likes of which no Jedi is prepared to face, and especially not the Republic vs the Imperium, which would roll over the former like a a bloody tide.

 

No hundred Sith Lords and Darth whatever-you-wants combined together have ever held the power of the Emperor of Mankind, and they would be but chaff in the wind before the Gods of Chaos. There are a 1000 chapters of 1000 Adeptus Astartes at any given time, not including the Imperial Guard drawn from literally a million worlds, the Inquisition, Sisters of Battle, and Imperial Navy. And don't let the (possibly) comparably diminutive size (compared to a Super Star Destroyer or the Eclipse) of a Republic- or Apocalypse-class battleship fool you - it packs weapons by the armful that outclass the most powerful turbolaser by a hundred to one, including some perfectly designed for - and more than capable of - wiping out the Death Star (can we say Nova Cannon, padawans and sithlings? goooooood).

 

The Jedi, neither as individuals nor as an entire order were any match for the Space Marines, who have their own powers to bring to the table, both psychic and technological, and that's before they even don a suit of armor, and given the kind of punishment and abuse standard MarkVI/VII armor can take (again, much less Terminator armor), I really can't bring myself to believe that a lightsaber is really any threat at all. Jedi simply aren't prepared to deal with something like a Space Marine, whereas said Marine is ritually trained to deal with the likes of Jedi and far, far worse.

 

Might a few Jedi, especially exceptional ones, kill some Space Marines? Sure. Of course.

 

The U.S. also lost 114 soldiers to Iraqi fire in the first Gulf War...

 

while inflicting between 20,000 to 35,000 Iraqi casualties.

 

15,000 Jedi, 1,000,000 Space Marines. Any way you do the numbers, one on one or Republic+Empire vs. Imperium of Man, it sucks to be a heretic.

 

"We are the slayers of kings, the destroyers of worlds, bringers of ruination and death in all its forms. These things we do in the name of the Emperor and in the defense of Mankind. Let none stay our wrath."

 

LET THE UNIVERSE BURN!

Edited January 18, 2012 by Besieged

[kainsec]

I would go with Space Marines. The standard bolter fires what is essentially miniature rockets not blaster bolts or even normal gunfire. Worse case scenario any saber attempting to deflect them would probably ignite the fuel inside the bolt causing it to explode in extreme close range. Best case scenario the deflection would just melt the bolt round not rebound it like a blaster bolt.

 

Added to this Space Marines have a huge number of genetic advantages over the Jedi including limited regeneration, acid spit, redundant organs, vastly increased physical strength and endurance, ect.

 

Finally there is sheer numbers. There are enough chapters of space marines to outnumber the Jedi even though by 40k standards both the Space Marines and their Chaos counterparts are actually small armies. Coupled with this is their fleet and vehicles including the Land Raiders which are essentially mobile fortresses capable of leveling cities.

 

The jedi's primary advantage the force may or not be effective at all considering what Librarians can do such as teleportation, smite (think force lightning but not dark side aligned), can create psychic force fields, the ability to disable vehicles, create immense fields of flames, quickening (think revan and meetra's battle precognition ability), the ability to rip a whole in space and reality and throw anyone through it, boil the blood of a victim, ect ect the list goes on. It's a nasty list of things Librarians can do compared to what Jedi can do.

[Levosier]

First of all - best thread ever.

 

Second, a space marine would flatten a jedi, no contest, unless they were an extremely powerful force user.

 

Space marines could likely survive a saber strike butt naked due to the fact that they have triple-redundant organs. (This may be a stretch). Grey knights with force weapons would be an interesting fight to watch against a jedi, but basically any sort of marine with melta or a storm bolter would level a jedi like it was a joke. As far as force powers, look at what eldritch storm does to space marines. 1 on 1 it doesn't have a really high chance of killing an MEQ, destructor is a little bit better. Let's not even talk about space wolves - the jedi can swing all he wants and he will never kill anything due to wound allocation!

 

Storm bolter - firing like 3 billion rounds a second, there is no way you will deflect all of the bullets. And, well, melta is melta, I doubt it can be saber blocked and lets hope jedi have eternal warrior.

 

Third, my Eldar far seer would just make the jedi's head explode, and a shuricat is about the best weapon you could have against a jedi - extremely high rate of fire, monomolecular ammo that you can't see or likely deflect.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Levosier

[Kekkles]

Jedi would swing, and anything but a decapitation, the Space Marine would survive - then completely murder the Jedi.

 

The Space Marine wouldn't even stop - wouldn't worry about any possible blood loss (their body instantly takes care of that issue), they won't go into shock (their body instantly takes care of that issue), and they won't be scared by your little glowing sword thing.

 

MY ARMOR IS CONTEMPT. AN OPEN MIND IS LIKE A FORTRESS WITH ITS GATES UNBARRED! TODAY, WE WILL NOT DIE - IT IS THE ENEMIES OF THE EMPEROR OF MANKIND WHO WILL SUFFER THAT FATE! WE ARE THE EMPEROR'S GLORY! FOR THE EMPEROR!

 

God damnit, I hate having to side with the Space Marine, just because after working for GW for three years and managing one of their stores for them, much contempt has grown in my heart...

[Besieged]

First of all - best thread ever.

 

Eh, I'd nominate it in the top ten, anyway. I've read a lot of forums... :/

 

Second, a space marine would flatten a jedi, no contest, unless they were an extremely powerful force user.

 

Space marines could likely survive a saber strike butt naked due to the fact that they have triple-redundant organs. (This may be a stretch). Grey knights with force weapons would be an interesting fight to watch against a jedi, but basically any sort of marine with melta or a storm bolter would level a jedi like it was a joke. As far as force powers, look at what eldritch storm does to space marines. 1 on 1 it doesn't have a really high chance of killing an MEQ, destructor is a little bit better. Let's not even talk about space wolves - the jedi can swing all he wants and he will never kill anything due to wound allocation!

 

Storm bolter - firing like 3 billion rounds a second, there is no way you will deflect all of the bullets. And, well, melta is melta, I doubt it can be saber blocked and lets hope jedi have eternal warrior.

 

Third, my Eldar far seer would just make the jedi's head explode, and a shuricat is about the best weapon you could have against a jedi - extremely high rate of fire, monomolecular ammo that you can't see or likely deflect.

 

You know, the melta never occurred to me for some reason, but I think I'd actually have to nominate the Warp Spiders' monofilament Death Spinner for best anti-Jedi weapon, as I don't ever recall seeing a Jedi in a full suit of armor...

[malevolunze]

First of all - best thread ever.

 

 

Thank you but the post above me is right

Edited January 18, 2012 by malevolunze

[Foxfirega]

Eh, I'd nominate it in the top ten, anyway. I've read a lot of forums... :/

 

 

 

You know, the melta never occurred to me for some reason, but I think I'd actually have to nominate the Warp Spiders' monofilament Death Spinner for best anti-Jedi weapon, as I don't ever recall seeing a Jedi in a full suit of armor...

 

Actually had the melta discussion with one of my mates the other day - it depends on how the individual melta beam is ruled by whoever's writing it. Exceptionally powerful energy bursts (including overcharged/unstable lightsabers) have been shown to temporarily short out or disable lightsabers for a short period of time, but it's not something that's applied consistently.

 

A high-powered beam of incredibly dense/concentrated plasma is likely to be just high-end enough to do that, or otherwise batter down the Jedi's defenses just through being a beam instead of a 'shot' or round. I don't have enough references to suggest how lightsaber deflection works with actual dedicated beam weaponary, however.

 

If it goes through, he's toast. Dodging it is the only viable strategy there.

 

Same issue came up with plasma weaponary, as well - once you get over the plasma pistol/gun size category (which would be legitimately deflectable with a lightsaber), plasma rounds tend to explode violently the second their magnetic field is ruptured. Going to deflect it with a lightsaber or even Force Deflection would likely fry the target. Force Push might work, but I don't think that's something an 'average' Jedi would come up with on their own right out of the gate when confronted with a giant ball of plasma. Dodge would be the primary method of mitigation here, too, and it'd be less effective overall.

 

Space Marines employ a lot of weaponary that is a hard-counter to some basic Jedi defensive techniques in review. As does a lot of the 40k universe (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Orks).

 

Tau and Necrons, not so much. The former uses a lot of dedicated plasma weaponry similar to the SW universe to start with, and the latter focuses on magnetic field disruption or lightning arcs, with the odd sonic weapon.

[obarskyer]

as stated earlier the jedi would try to incapacitate first by lobbing off the arm at which point the space marine eater picks up his own hand and beats tthe jedi to death with it or he just bludgeons the jedi to death with his stump. But no seriously I don't think the space marine would even be phased at the loss of the hand he'd probably keep going which might actual throw off the jedi who would expect their target to be stunned. And For the most part jedi wouldn't have implants as someone stated in one of the first pages. The less pure of body you are the weaker you are with the force. Vaders problem was that. He would have been much stronger had he not been mostly cyborg. I an a huge fan of star wars but I would have to say good odds toward a average space marine toward beating an average jedi.

[warrcry]

One on One? between an Average Jedi and an Average Astartes? The Jedi first has to get to the Space Marine without getting blown up by basic bolter rounds or Krak/Frag Genades, they have no advantage of speed, strength and flexibility, as the Space Marines are super humans.

 

Then we have the fact the Jedi would die far easier than an Astartes would, he has three times more organs than a normal human and we have seen Space Marines survive things that would kill any normal human and was just shoved into a Dreadnought to serve a couple of hundred more years.

 

If we move on up to Librarians vs Jedi Masters, its a rather quick battle, Psychic Powers have proven far worse than what the normal Jedi Master can do with the Force, the Jedi has also lost his advantage of a Lightsaber as a Librarian has a Power Sword, so I'm going Astartes again.

 

If we move even further up, it gets beyond ridiculously easy for the Astartes, even if we take Grand Master Luke, we would then put him against anyone Primarch or even The Emperor himself, in which he stands no chance.

 

All-out war? Astartes' Navy trumps any Jedi or Republic navy.

 

The Space Marines on the ground have a massive numbers advantage, around five hundred to One, when we consider that the height of the Jedi Order was 15,000 before the Clone Wars, just one Astartes Chapter(which there are a lot of) has more than that, their weaponry massively outmatches anything the Jedi can muster, Psychic Powers, Las Cannons and Battle-Cannons against the Force and Lightsabers? easily the Astartes.

 

Honestly, the best chance of survival for the Jedi is to disappear and wage a shadow war and hope to the Will of the Force that the Adeptus Astartes just stop caring and move on to another battlefield.

 

 

Just wanna say each chapter only has a thousand marines. Unless we are talking Black Templars. The only time they ahd more than a thousand per chapter is back when they were legions before the Horus Heresy.

 

 

The problem with this matchup is that Jedi have "plot armour" Basically the force can do anything. Not to mention it'd be rare to find a Astartes alone. They are squad based warriors. I mean it's not unheard of, but not exactly the norm either.