Bioware: Allow Advanced Class Respec!

[Noth]

No, because unlike other games Bioware has two tiers of specialization instead of one. This game gives you 4 classes per side, each with 2 subclasses to specialize in, each with 3 trees to further specialize in. It's like comparing apples to oranges. And debating the wording of what is an "advanced class" is silly and dumb. We all know it's a specialization of the primary, overall class.

 

Furthermore being against this idea for nothing more then an apparent principal is just plain ignorant. How does it hurt anyone to allow players to have more freedom? Should Bioware not allow us to change appearance for our companions? Should they not allow tree respecs at all? This idea that if you go down one path, however narrow or short it is, you can never go back without starting from scratch is beyond me and I truly hope Bioware is above that kind of mentality.

 

A class is a specialization in the first place. I could call the Jedi knight and Jedi consular a specialization of Jedi. AoC Was going to have this exact system as well. They scrapped it because of people getting confused about what was and wasn't considered a class. They kept the archetypes and just made you pick your class at the start. EQ2 did the same thing. Aion has two levels of specialization as well yet to can't change your subclass. You can only change the last layer of specialization.

 

As for your second paragraph you haven't listened to any of the arguments pre-release did you. In a social gaming environment seemingly harmless changes can have massive effects. FotM is already bad, why encourage it to make it worse for example.

 

Further the fact that they have waffled on this decision so much instead of actually putting it in the game shows that they do think of ACs as more than just talent specs.

[Darthconnor]

EQUIVOCATION: allows a key word or term in an argument to shift its meaning during the course of the argument. The result is that the conclusion of the argument is not concerned with the same thing as the premise(s).

 

example: Only man is rational. No woman is a man. Therefore, no woman is rational.

 

example: No one who has the slightest acquaintance with science can reasonably doubt that the miracles in the Bible actually took place. Every year we witness countless new miracles in the form recombinant DNA, micro-chips, organ transplants, and the like. (the word "miracle" does not have the same meaning in each case)

 

Your too lazy to do the work required to level a new toon.

 

Is that better?

 

If your trying to prove i dont want to work let alone have added work in a game I have all but said so. I dont ever want to have a game i feel like i working in. Never a big Wow player cause of need for the best gear and all the work that you had to do to get it. Im sorry if this somehow offends you greatly but honestly if you feel like your working in a game then the game has failed you. My opinion of course so take it as lazy or whatever else you like.

 

I just like to know how letting me change a class once in the characters little electronic life somehow has such a great effect on you as you would need to oppose letting me enjoy the progress ive made and not make me start over.

[Hiramas]

AC = Class.

Different name does not mean a different thing.

When you have AC respecc for an in game cost you just have people rushing a sentinel to 50 and then respecting to guardian because tanks get all the attention and tanking isn't hard, right?

When you have AC respecc for money it just shows a greedy Dev.

 

The whole concept is there to cater to lazy people who want everything instant. Leveling is so much fun in this game, even a second time.

I understand every argument. People make mistakes, people have not as much time as other people. I get it. But the world does not change around you how you want it. BW intended for a certain experience in this game. And making a decision with consequences is one of these experiences.

 

The thing is: WoW got ruined by people who want everything to be easy and instant. The faction/appearance changes are just one symptom. And even they do not have class changes! (as far as i know, could have changed by now).

[CupieFoxtail]

Oh boy, if they ever put this in the game I would seriously consider leaving

I'm a GUNSLINGER, not a SCOUNDREL

If anyone ever asks me to heal them on my smuggler, I'm out

[Ratajack]

Stop assuming people made a "mistake", are lazy and don't want to re-roll. It's called circumstances. People might level a Sentinel to 50 due to imbalances in the game, such as Guardian DPS being a poor leveling experience, having done the actual research. However in an end-game role, they want to tank or dps. That's one out of hundreds of reasonable situations that would call for an AC respec. It also DOES take 25 levels, if not more, for many utility classes to come into their own. Please don't act like you've played 1-50 of every class and understand them all, cause I assure you, you don't.

 

 

If they allow multiply respecs yes I can see that if its a once per character deal not really. If you change from an advance class once and you liked it well you either hoping that you like its alternative better or your gonna end up rerolling the advance class you had again. This might even keep ppl playing as not many like replaying the same story twice even if there is possible changes to said story not to mention having to replay the side quests all over again. I dont know about you or who you play with but most I know want max level as fast as possible and want to move on to the max level for pvp or endgame pve asap.

 

 

Sounds to me like certain people waned an easy or quick route to 50 and so chose to level as DPS, but want to tank/heal for endgame. Gee, if only AC's had multiple possible roles so people could level DPS and respec talents at 50 to tank or heal. Oh wait, most AC's already have this option. I see no reason to allow a change of AC based on either of these arguments, since a viable DPS tree is available for every AC, making leveling easy while still retaining the option to change talents at level cap for utility.

 

This is especially true since every AC gets at least one companion who can fill each role, DPS, tank or heals. Not all BASE classes get companions to fill a certain role at the same time, true. However, AC has no bearing on when you get that healing companion, that tanking companion or that DPS companion, since the companions and their arrival times are dictated by BASE class and story line. Thus there is no justification for allowing people to change their AC based on companion arrival time.

 

If you choose a particular AC for quicker or easier leveling, that's YOUR choice. You made the choice, you should have to live with the consequences.

[Greyfeld]

Based on what? I have http://www.swtor.com to support me, what do you have beyond just an opinion?

 

Your argument is based on a bias and semantics. Other games have the same Class/AC setup and offer no respecs, because the AC is an extension of your class that defines the type of character you're playing. Just one example is Aion, which are called "subclasses," and also branch out at level 10 in the same exact way that SWTOR's ACs do.

[Dunzo]

A class is a specialization in the first place. I could call the Jedi knight and Jedi consular a specialization of Jedi. AoC Was going to have this exact system as well. They scrapped it because of people getting confused about what was and wasn't considered a class. They kept the archetypes and just made you pick your class at the start. EQ2 did the same thing. Aion has two levels of specialization as well yet to can't change your subclass. You can only change the last layer of specialization.

 

As for your second paragraph you haven't listened to any of the arguments pre-release did you. In a social gaming environment seemingly harmless changes can have massive effects. FotM is already bad, why encourage it to make it worse for example.

 

Further the fact that they have waffled on this decision so much instead of actually putting it in the game shows that they do think of ACs as more than just talent specs.

 

This opens up a couple other discussions. One being Bioware's original handling of the four classes. First, I agree that Bioware handled the Jedi/Sith classes poorly. You really should have just started as either (no distinction initially) and had potentially 3 paths to choose, each with completely branching and unique storylines/companions. Which leads me to the second point that picking an AC is virtually no different then picking a tree. At most it changes your armor/weapon tier but really all it is, is play style. The overall experience remains the same, the story remains the same, and so long as that is the case, an AC is not a unique class in itself. Anyway, that's a discussion for another thread.

[Greyfeld]

So you want ppl working in a game thats meant to be fun. I'm not a credit farmer i play this cause i want to enjoy myself not work.

 

If you want credits, you farm credits. If you don't care about how many credits you have, then you're welcome to sit around, completely broke, not being able to buy anything. But it's not Bioware's job to give you free credits because you're too lazy to go out and farm your own.

 

Similarly, if you want a certain AC, you roll that AC. If you don't want to do the work to level up that AC, then you're welcome to roll something else and live with the consequences of that decision. But it's not Bioware's job to give you a free class change because you're too lazy to go out and level the class you wanted to play to begin with.

 

Back during the first xpac in World of Warcraft, paladins were still ridiculously slow to level. Retribution was still broken, and the only way to get an instance slot most of the time was to heal. I didn't demand that Blizzard allow me to level a rogue, then respec to a paladin at level 70. No, I slogged my *** from level 1 all the way to level 70.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Greyfeld

[Noth]

This opens up a couple other discussions. One being Bioware's original handling of the four classes. First, I agree that Bioware handled the Jedi/Sith classes poorly. You really should have just started as either (no distinction initially) and had potentially 3 paths to choose, each with completely branching and unique storylines/companions. Which leads me to the second point that picking an AC is virtually no different then picking a tree. At most it changes your armor/weapon tier but really all it is, is play style. The overall experience remains the same, the story remains the same, and so long as that is the case, an AC is not a unique class in itself. Anyway, that's a discussion for another thread.

 

The experience does not remain the same. My Powertech experience is vastly different than my merc. My assassin experience is vastly different than my sorc experience, and my sniper experience is vastly different than my Operative. They all play so vastly different it is like they are different classes in other games. Don't bring up the druid from WoW as that is the exception rather than the rule. Also never heard of talent trees have 3 separate trees in them. By that logic I could say that selecting a class in other games is not different than selecting a talent tree. I mean often different classes share abilities, gear and so forth.

[lokivoid]

Bioware,

 

Please allow Advanced Class Respec. There's no reason for this, give players the choice! If you're worried it will hurt your story or something - don't. You don't seem to care you send Jedi to go slaughter hundreds of Sand People, so why care about something that is needlessly restricting players?

 

Thanks!

 

 

THINGS TO CONSIDER:

 

1. An Advanced Class is separate from a Class in SWTOR. Support: http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes

2. Players deserve freedom, especially when it doesn't effect you in any way.

3. Given the same choices, a player's story, companions and ship is exactly the same regardless of your AC.

4. Just because you enjoy making 16 alts doesn't mean the player next to you does.

5. There's many legitimate reasons why a player at any level might need to respec AC's. It does not mean they are lazy/stupid.

 

ALSO:

 

Links showing Bioware has supported this idea...

 

WATCH:

 

Thanks to Salzwasser for the link.

 

...and more recently, read: http://torwars.com/2011/12/01/stephen-reid-on-advanced-class-switching/

 

POLL HERE: http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=4f1285a6c2e1b0e46168c294

 

 

 

No, stop reposting this over and over.

[Avrose]

If your trying to prove i dont want to work let alone have added work in a game I have all but said so. I dont ever want to have a game i feel like i working in. Never a big Wow player cause of need for the best gear and all the work that you had to do to get it. Im sorry if this somehow offends you greatly but honestly if you feel like your working in a game then the game has failed you. My opinion of course so take it as lazy or whatever else you like.

 

I just like to know how letting me change a class once in the characters little electronic life somehow has such a great effect on you as you would need to oppose letting me enjoy the progress ive made and not make me start over.

 

Because it is unfair and can and will result in abuse.

 

'Which of the two advanced classes has the best dps tree'

'This one'

'Cool, I'll level as this AC and this tree then when I get to max I'll respec to a tank/healer'

 

 

This will result in many players wishing to 'shortcut' the game to do so. people will level less variety of classes during 10-50. this will assure a shortage of tanks and healers for lower level content like flash-points, heroic quests and those practice raid world bosses.

 

That is why it should NEVER happen.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Avrose

[Atrozious]

Meh either way doesnt matter to me.

[Aleron]

No. You made your choice @ lvl 10. Stick with it or level another character.

[Darthconnor]

If you want credits, you farm credits. If you don't care about how many credits you have, then you're welcome to sit around, completely broke, not being able to buy anything. But it's not Bioware's job to give you free credits because you're too lazy to go out and farm your own.

 

Similarly, if you want a certain AC, you roll that AC. If you don't want to do the work to level up that AC, then you're welcome to roll something else and live with the consequences of that decision. But it's not Bioware's job to give you a free class change because you're too lazy to go out and level the class you wanted to play to begin with.

 

Not that high yet but i havent had to farm credits and in most MMO's ive never really needed to go out of my way or work hard to get a large amount of game currency. While this is certainly not true to all I dont really see how spending a few hours grinding mobs at level 50 to get cash and having to redo all the progress you've made on a character is the same. I'm looking for a way to save what ive done and switch to the alternative spec instead of just deleting and starting the whole process over. Some say its lazy to want that but hell i think its stupid to want to do hard work in a game. Sorry and ive yet to hear the great disaster that will come from this should it be made possible.

[Darthconnor]

Because it is unfair and can and will result in abuse.

 

'Which of the two advanced classes has the best dps tree'

'This one'

'Cool, I'll level as this AC and this tree then when I get to max I'll respec to a tank/healer'

 

 

This will result in many players wishing to 'shortcut' the game to do so. people will level less variety of classes during 10-50. this will assure a shortage of tanks and healers for lower level content like flash-points, heroic quests and those practice raid world bosses.

 

That is why it should NEVER happen.

 

As someone else that is against this has already said every tank and healer tree has a dps tree next to it they can chose already and they can at 50 switch that to the healer/tank tree so this shortage of tanks and healers should already be happening. Yet i have not had a problem getting a tank or a healer for a group. So that reason really is already voided. Will it be able to happen in another way yes but since its already an option its not gonna happen anymore then is already happening.

[Dunzo]

Other games have the same Class/AC setup and offer no respecs, because the AC is an extension of your class that defines the type of character you're playing. Just one example is Aion, which are called "subclasses," and also branch out at level 10 in the same exact way that SWTOR's ACs do.

 

This. This is exactly what I have said, which you disagreed with. You just explained exactly that ACs are subclasses, and thus are separate, to the original classes. So by understanding this, all I have asked is to respec the subclass NOT the overall class. If you can understand that request, then all you have to do is provide an actual reason as to why this is a bad idea and you can actually start debating. And anything related to principal is not a valid reason, because principal goes both ways.

[Dunzo]

No, stop reposting this over and over.

 

Bioware extended it and re-posted it to accomodate over 1100 replies. Please read the post directly under the OP before flaming, thanks.

[Greyfeld]

This. This is exactly what I have said, which you disagreed with. You just explained exactly that ACs are subclasses, and thus are separate, to the original classes. So by understanding this, all I have asked is to respec the subclass NOT the overall class. If you can understand that request, then all you have to do is provide an actual reason as to why this is a bad idea and you can actually start debating. And anything related to principal is not a valid reason, because principal goes both ways.

 

AC is an extension of your class

 

If you learned to read properly, instead of taking something I said then trying to twist my words into something you agreed with, you'd know that I'm telling you that you're wrong. If Bioware broke the ACs down into eight base classes that started at level 1, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, and yet it would be the same damned thing.

 

And I don't have to list any reasons, it's been done a half dozen times just in this thread.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Greyfeld

[Dunzo]

Because it is unfair and can and will result in abuse.

 

'Which of the two advanced classes has the best dps tree'

'This one'

'Cool, I'll level as this AC and this tree then when I get to max I'll respec to a tank/healer'

 

 

This will result in many players wishing to 'shortcut' the game to do so. people will level less variety of classes during 10-50. this will assure a shortage of tanks and healers for lower level content like flash-points, heroic quests and those practice raid world bosses.

 

That is why it should NEVER happen.

 

Players can already choose to not level as tanks and dps instead, however unbalanced and difficult it already is. So really, what you are against already exists and it's working fine so far. Besides, it's not for you to decide how other players should choose to play the game.

[Halofax]

Players can already choose to not level as tanks and dps instead, however unbalanced and difficult it already is. So really, what you are against already exists and it's working fine so far. Besides, it's not for you to decide how other players should choose to play the game.

 

Yes, it is up to Bioware. And Bioware doesnt allow you to change Advance classes.

[Dunzo]

If you learned to read properly, instead of taking something I said then trying to twist my words into something you agreed with, you'd know that I'm telling you that you're wrong. If Bioware broke the ACs down into eight classes that started at level 1, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, and it would be the exact damned thing.

 

And I don't have to list any reasons, it's been done a half dozen times just in this thread.

 

Okay, so you want to have an opinion but support it with random opinions of other people? The fact is Bioware did not break down AC's into 8 separate starting classes so no, it is not the "same thing". The fact is that calling something an extension means it is something beyond the original. An AC is an extension of the class, just as a skill tree is an extension of the AC. Is this still going over your head?

[Dunzo]

Yes, it is up to Bioware. And Bioware doesnt allow you to change Advance classes.

 

Yeah, Bioware doesn't allow you to use anti-aliasing either. Then there's something called future patches. I also have links in the OP showing Bioware has been for this idea and even 15 days before launch said they will likely implement it.

[Darthconnor]

Yes, it is up to Bioware. And Bioware doesnt allow you to change Advance classes.

 

 

And as the companies are always inclined to put into their agreements rules and gameplay can change at anytime. Not allowing it or having it now is not a valid reason for not letting it be allowed or ingame later otherwise they couldnt add new game content like the new flashpoint being added soon. There still is not a reason other then a personal opinion why this shouldnt be added to be allowed atleast once. Noone is asking for it to be added tomorrow or saying it should be added asap only that it should be an option. While I think it should be a one time deal and shouldnt be like SWG where you could change as often as you had the credits for once isnt asking for to much.

[Greyfeld]

Okay, so you want to have an opinion but support it with random opinions of other people? The fact is Bioware did not break down AC's into 8 separate starting classes so no, it is not the "same thing". The fact is that calling something an extension means it is something beyond the original. An AC is an extension of the class, just as a skill tree is an extension of the AC. Is this still going over your head?

 

*Eats popcorn and waits for somebody else to continue the argument*

[Avrose]

As someone else that is against this has already said every tank and healer tree has a dps tree next to it they can chose already and they can at 50 switch that to the healer/tank tree so this shortage of tanks and healers should already be happening. Yet i have not had a problem getting a tank or a healer for a group. So that reason really is already voided. Will it be able to happen in another way yes but since its already an option its not gonna happen anymore then is already happening.

 

But let me throw you the idea for the second if I may in another light.

 

Take the operative, he can even in the other two specs heal an instance most of the time. For arguments sake however lets assume that the sniper just has more pure dps.

 

The sniper doesn't have the option to heal at all.

 

Why would we create a bigger incentive to not level the class that is not the best to level with?