Expertise is a giant mistake, didn't you learn from Trion?

[SandTrout]

Oh and you might be surprised how many people would stick around to pvp if they got a cool title for killing 10,000 enemy players in open world pvp or a 2 seater speeder for valor rank 65.

If this weren't true, Counterstrike would have been an absolute failure of a game because there is no gear that you need to progress to that can't be achieved within a couple of rounds.

[lupacob]

Top raiders are actually good at the game.

 

Both PvE and PvP.

 

 

look up some of the high rated guilds and then look at their players arena ratings (ill save you some time, they are all awful at arena)

 

and no, "good" doesnt mean 1800, good is 2500+

 

the horde rogue that got the first legendary daggers has like a 30% win rate at 1400 mmr in 2s, hes terrible.

 

you wont find a single high end/top raider that is any good at pvp, however if someone mainly does arena, and you throw some raid gear on them, they will perform well, since you have to actually have an IQ above 70 to do pvp successfully, unlike raiding

[Smashbrother]

But do you know why the top raiders rocked everyone? You're not going to want to hear this but it's the truth:

 

Top raiders are actually good at the game.

 

Both PvE and PvP.

 

They rock you not just because of their gear, but because they have team work honed over a thousand raids. They are fast with healing. They can damage train something with brutal efficiency. When you run in to interrupt their flag cap, they see an add to be CC'd and bursted down.

 

While you spent 50 hours PvPing, they spent 5 hours PvPing and 500 hours PvEing. They're just as good as you. In a team, they're better than you.

 

In reality - they spent 50+ hours playing the game, just like you did. Forcing people to spend the time playing only a specific part of the game because your fragile ego can't handle people being better than you at something you dumped all your time in is beyond moronic.

 

Not a single person would complain if you "rolled" into a flashpoint or operation sporting PvP gear and contributed. The boss you killed certainly won't be calling for a nerf.

 

Wrong.

 

All the great pvpers are also great at pve, but the opposite is not true. I knew tons of hardcore raiders that were absolutely terrible in pvp. Raiding is not hard. It certainly is not as hard as good player premade vs premade pvp. Raiding by nature is against an AI that has a set pattern and timers of when things go down. The boss fights in pve are always going to be the exact same thing every time.

 

People on the other hand are way more volatile and unpredictable. The class comps may be different, the spec might be diff. There's no set pattern (outside of a few basics like kill healers and cc) to winning premades vs premades except to simply outplay the other team.

 

The only reason raiders in pre-resilience WoW pwnd in pvp was because of their gear, and pvp gear sucked balls. I know this because I was there since WoW beta.

[Drengir]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp, it makes no sense. In every old pvp mmo that's ever came out they didn't need special stats, it was about your build, and skill. That's enough, only bad's require special stats that put them at an extreme advantage. Nobody else does.

 

Trion made a GIANT MISTAKE with Valor, and they admit it! They tried to remove it, then they tried to add it to PVE gear, then they decided 'screw it' and tossed the same valor on ALL pvp gear! Essentially they realize any special stat people can 'grind out' in PVP places a tremendous imbalance into the game that isn't easily fixed.

 

I foresee a huge problem with the 50's bracket when new 50's enter it and become 'food' for people that have high expertise they got from GRINDING LOW LEVELS, while the new 50's won't have this luxury. They will be slaughtered. Therefore, choose your solution;

 

1) Expertise needs to be removed.

2) Expertise needs to be added to lower level pvp gear.

3) Entry-Level 50's PVP gear needs to be added that has expertise, and is purchasable with Warzone Coms prior to reaching 50.

 

Take your pick, one of the three has to happen or the noob farming won't stop with the 50's bracket. If someone needs their own special stat to compete in pvp then they can just give up pvping. There is little logic in these 'special' stats, and they only serve to cause more imbalances.

 

You are so wrong, the PvP players will just get stomped by the PvE:ers that can bother to farm the boring, long and repetitive Operations/raids.

 

There must be a difference between PvP and PvE gear. You are just a PvE player that are mad you wont be able to steamroll all the PvP:ers in between operations

[RealAeiouy]

Only if PvP and PvE gear are non-equivalent.

 

Go ask your pve friends wha they think about it.

 

I keep asking people to make a thread on the general forum asking for equal gear for pve and pvp. Pve players will riot. They will never accept it, no way no how.

 

Expertise exists because of pve players so take it up with them.

[EternalFinality]

look up some of the high rated guilds and then look at their players arena ratings (ill save you some time, they are all awful at arena)

 

and no, "good" doesnt mean 1800, good is 2500+

 

the horde rogue that got the first legendary daggers has like a 30% win rate at 1400 mmr in 2s, hes terrible.

 

you wont find a single high end/top raider that is any good at pvp, however if someone mainly does arena, and you throw some raid gear on them, they will perform well, since you have to actually have an IQ above 70 to do pvp successfully, unlike raiding

 

I didn't say they were the best. I said they were good. You can throw out random anecdotes about how on YOUR server things were something-or-other but my experience has shown otherwise.

[SandTrout]

People who enjoy pvp and are good at it have no problems leveling up and being disadvantaged.

This is utter nonsense. I am a person that enjoys PvP and I absolutely despise any sort of grinding for the sake of grinding. Speak for yourself, but don't claim to speak for all PvP players.

 

it is a challenge and part of character growth. I am not level 50 yet, I have zero concerns playing in the new bracket as a new level 50 I do it now

It's not character growth to do the same thing over and over that you don't enjoy because you've been artificially handicapped.

 

In fact the times I most improve at pvp are when I am out geared and leveled because I have to get better at surviving and making an impact. When I get to level gear I am that much better.

This kind of handicap can be self imposed, if you like. Play the game in your old gear that you used on the way up to 50 if you want, but you're harming me if it is compulsory in the PvP PvE transition.

[RealAeiouy]

This was because Blizzard was stupid with their gear distribution. Another person's stupidity does not excuse your from repeating their mistakes.

 

PvP stat doesn't help against hardcore PvP grinders any more than it helps against PvE raiders. Casual gamers still get screwed because they don't have the top-end gear that's only accessable by valor 60 PvP players that have been able to dedicate a couple of weeks of playtime. Casual gamers don't have the time to dedicate to that much grinding in PvP any more than they did for PvE.

 

The problem isn't solved, a new one is created.

 

@Killadrix If you're worried about progression speed of PvP gear compared to PvE gear, the numbers can be adjusted with relative ease to achieve whatever progression rate is desired.

 

Example: quadruple the commendations cost of PvP gear and quarter the rate at which commendations are awarded.

 

Result: PvP progression is 1/16th as fast as it was, and slow enough that the raiders don't feel gimped.

 

Naturally, I just pulled those numbers out of my ***, but its just math, as another poster stated. If people are progressing too quickly in PvP, adjust the numbers and the math will sort itself. If people aren't getting adequate equipment in PvE, adjust the drop-rate numbers or commendation awards to fit the desired time frame.

 

Simply because 1 game was successful in spite of it's PvP system, which is incredibly flawed, doesn't mean that all games should follow its example in every aspect.

Gear is part of mmog character development. If you dont like it these are not the games for you.

 

As someone else noted even with no expertise new 50s would be at a massive gear disadvantage.

 

Play pvp and gear up, it is that easy.

[AFJEDI]

If they are going to have it this way then ALL PVP gear needs expertise...not just level 50 gear. MAJOR screw up there! Fix it now.

[alienshirt]

There should be NO special stat for 50 pvp.

 

Agreed. This is something I suggested several times during my 3 months as a regular beta tester.

[Guntsu]

This is utter nonsense. I am a person that enjoys PvP and I absolutely despise any sort of grinding for the sake of grinding. Speak for yourself, but don't claim to speak for all PvP players.

 

It's not character growth to do the same thing over and over that you don't enjoy because you've been artificially handicapped.

 

This kind of handicap can be self imposed, if you like. Play the game in your old gear that you used on the way up to 50 if you want, but you're harming me if it is compulsory in the PvP PvE transition.

 

Why are you playing an MMO? PVP in an MMO is not truly competitive as it will never be balanced in the sense that when you enter a WZ's you are not in an even playing field.

 

Thats like saying I want to be able to PVE in greens and should not have to grind gear so that I can do that nightmare lvl raid.

 

The best they can do to keep it fair is to have two sets of gear PVE and PVP and draw those distinctions so they never mix.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Guntsu

[SandTrout]

You are so wrong, the PvP players will just get stomped by the PvE:ers that can bother to farm the boring, long and repetitive Operations/raids.

People think this because Blizzard didn't think to allow PvPers access to equivalent gear. This does not have to be the case in TOR unless BioWare willfully chooses to do it.

 

There must be a difference between PvP and PvE gear. You are just a PvE player that are mad you wont be able to steamroll all the PvP:ers in between operations

You're actually contradicting yourself here because originally, you stated that the problem was Unequal gear distribution allowed PvE access to superior gear, and now you're saying that there must be unequal gear distribution in order to justify the existence of expertise.

 

You're creating a problem to justify your piss-poor solution.

[Xilrasis]

Oh great, now this has denigrated to the age old "PVP is harder than PVE" argument and "All PVP players are good at PVE or vice versa."

 

Sigh.

 

I've played with some PVPers who were on the top .1% of teams, tournament players (winners in some cases), who were AWFUL at PVE.

 

I hate to break the news to you, but they are two completely different environments that require totally different mindsets (novel concept that they would require different gear, too.)

 

You can throw around the "PVE is scripted" argument all you want but it doesn't change the fact that even the best of PVE players take hundreds of attempts at the same encounter before coming together and performing it correctly. That argument is almost like saying a dance is choreographed and as such anyone can do it flawlessly because its so simplistic. Its really not.

 

Consider PVE as choreographed dance and PVP as interpretive freestyle dance. PVE has a set pattern that you must learn and practice and execute flawlessly to succeed at. The other you have flexibility, but still follow a rhythm with a certain level of predictability and restriction on how you can flow from one thing to the next. PVP is just as scripted as PVE in many ways, but a large part of that is learning to anticipate and react properly.

 

All that being said, even when raiding with guilds in the top 1-5 slots, there were some PVE'ers who I raided with that I wouldn't trust against a Pug in a battleground or Arena. At the same time, there were some who were simply exceptional players in both regards and I would happily have them with me.

[Guntsu]

You cant allow equal access to gear, because PVP gear is much easier to obtain then top lvl raids.

 

PVP gear only really requires time and a bit of luck on your bags, even if you lose more then win eventually you will get the gear since rewards for losing are high in this game.

 

Hardcore raiders wish to be rewarded with hardcore raiding gear, thats what top guilds live for is that epeen of not only killing the boss but getting that gear.

 

Having two lines of gear makes it so that people that wish to enjoy only partaking in some light PVE but mostly like to PVP can stay competitive.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Guntsu

[EternalFinality]

You cant allow equal access to gear, because PVP gear is much easier to obtain then top lvl raids.

 

PVP gear only really requires time and a bit of luck on your bags, even if you lsoe more then win eventually you will get the gear since rewards for losing are high in this game.

 

Hardcore raiders wish to be rewarded with hardcore raiding gear, thats what top guilds live for is that epeen of not only killing the boss but getting that gear.

 

Having two lines of gear makes it so that people that wish to enjoy only partaking in some light PVE but mostly like to PVP can stay competitive.

 

Something is always going to be "easier" to obtain. Why do people care so damn much about that?

[RealAeiouy]

Actually, I'm a PvP player who doesn't want to grind the same FP an ungodly number of times in order to try out the top-end ones.

 

Yeah it is pretty clear this is not true. Pvp players actually like to pvp even if they are disadvantaged.

[Guntsu]

Because raiders that put time and dedication into their raids want to be rewarded and if any player can obtain that gear with much less effort it takes away a lvl of achievement.

[SandTrout]

You cant allow equal access to gear, because PVP gear is much easier to obtain then top lvl raids.

 

PVP gear only really requires time and a bit of luck on your bags, even if you lose more then win eventually you will get the gear since rewards for losing are high in this game.

 

Hardcore raiders wish to be rewarded with hardcore raiding gear, thats what top guilds live for is that epeen of not only killing the boss but getting that gear.

 

Having two lines of gear makes it so that people that wish to enjoy only partaking in some light PVE but mostly like to PVP can stay competitive.

The sense of entitlement is strong in this one...

[EternalFinality]

Because raiders that put time and dedication into their raids want to be rewarded and if any player can obtain that gear with much less effort it takes away a lvl of achievement.

 

No it doesn't.

[Guntsu]

Its no sense of entitelment its how this MMO works, its gear driven and if you cant get over that I cant help you because its part of the core game design

 

No it doesn't.

 

Says you...but if you dont think gear is a driving factor then your lost

Edited January 14, 2012 by Guntsu

[SandTrout]

Yeah it is pretty clear this is not true. Pvp players actually like to pvp even if they are disadvantaged.

Really, you know exactly what every single PvP player that subscribes to TOR likes? How can I hook up to this psychic network?

 

Yes, I will play while disadvantaged. I'll probably even enjoy playing, but I enjoy it more when I don't know that I have been deliberately handicapped by someone else. I can deal with my own limitations, but I happen to take offense when other people arbitrarily impose theirs on me.

[Guntsu]

Really, you know exactly what every single PvP player that subscribes to TOR likes? How can I hook up to this psychic network?

 

Yes, I will play while disadvantaged. I'll probably even enjoy playing, but I enjoy it more when I don't know that I have been deliberately handicapped by someone else. I can deal with my own limitations, but I happen to take offense when other people arbitrarily impose theirs on me.

 

What is it that you like about PVP in an MMO

[MorgonKara]

They could have expertise rating tied to valour rank. So the higher valour you have the better your expertise. That would mean it would come down to actual ability to acquire rather than grinding.

 

That's how I was thinking it would work before I got to play. It doesn't make much difference for this argument though because instead of grinding tokens for gear you would be grinding valor.

[RealAeiouy]

This is utter nonsense. I am a person that enjoys PvP and I absolutely despise any sort of grinding for the sake of grinding. Speak for yourself, but don't claim to speak for all PvP players.

 

It's not character growth to do the same thing over and over that you don't enjoy because you've been artificially handicapped.

 

This kind of handicap can be self imposed, if you like. Play the game in your old gear that you used on the way up to 50 if you want, but you're harming me if it is compulsory in the PvP PvE transition.

 

You said you enjoy pvp then you said you don't enjoy pvp.

 

You should be playing a fps and not mmog pvp given your desire to always be equal.

[SandTrout]

What is it that you like about PVP in an MMO

The parts I like the most is the large-scale conflicts involving flanking, feints to draw off the bulk of the enemies forces, and hardpoint defenses to tie up as many enemy resources while the rest of the force captures the objective.

 

Sadly, there isn't much of that in any modern MMO, so I settle for chilling with my friends and playing a mix of WZs and Raids. Every WZ is different because people are random, so I'm less likely to become completely bored with it.