RatTheMad Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I've always enjoyed the technical aspects of the ships in Star Wars, going (at least) back to playing games like X-Wing on the PC. Something has been bothering me about the ship designs in SWTOR, and I was wondering if someone could explain it to me. The Old Republic ships are clearly ancestors of those used by the Rebellion in the original movies, while the Sith ships obviously relate to the Galactic Empire. Yet in the prequel movies, the Republic ship aesthetics are also clearly the precursors of the Galactic Empire (which makes sense, Palpatine seizes control of the Republic military). So to me there seem to be two competing evolutions of government v. ship design. Sith Empire -> Galactic Republic -> Galactic Empire and Old Republic -> ??? -> Rebel Alliance Why? I hope that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiyanta Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 hhmm, a very valid point however, maybe when a certain faction joined the rebellion they brought with them certain designs for ships? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatTheMad Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 One of the possibilities that occurred to me is that the Republic navies in the prequel movies were all part of the new clone war military secretly built by Palpatine, who being a Sith, essentially built a new navy based on ancient Sith ships to go with his new army. But that bothers me for a few reasons. 1. Arguably the whole point of the clone thing is to explain how this army came out of nowhere in a decade or two. That wouldn't be possible with massive capital fleets. 2. There would have been tons of existing Old Republic style ships mixed in with the "clone" Republic fleets in the prequels. 3. Likewise, even accounting for all the stuff the Rebels made off with, the Empire would still have tons of Corellian Corvettes and such in service. No way the Empire made off exclusively with the newer "clone/Sith" hardware while every captain of of the other style of ships went Rebel. Not that everything has to make sense. But Star Wars does spend a lot of detail on its fictional technical details (half the plots are about stealing plans for this or that) so I assume there's an in-universe explanation I don't know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiyanta Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) One of the possibilities that occurred to me is that the Republic navies in the prequel movies were all part of the new clone war military secretly built by Palpatine, who being a Sith, essentially built a new navy based on ancient Sith ships to go with his new army. But that bothers me for a few reasons. 1. Arguably the whole point of the clone thing is to explain how this army came out of nowhere in a decade or two. That wouldn't be possible with massive capital fleets. 2. There would have been tons of existing Old Republic style ships mixed in with the "clone" Republic fleets in the prequels. 3. Likewise, even accounting for all the stuff the Rebels made off with, the Empire would still have tons of Corellian Corvettes and such in service. No way the Empire made off exclusively with the newer "clone/Sith" hardware while every captain of of the other style of ships went Rebel. Not that everything has to make sense. But Star Wars does spend a lot of detail on its fictional technical details (half the plots are about stealing plans for this or that) so I assume there's an in-universe explanation I don't know about. maybe Palpatine asked count douku to ask for a fleet to be made (from a different client) aswell at the same time as ordering the clones to be made and trained? Edited January 14, 2012 by Kiyanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiyanta Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 One of the possibilities that occurred to me is that the Republic navies in the prequel movies were all part of the new clone war military secretly built by Palpatine, who being a Sith, essentially built a new navy based on ancient Sith ships to go with his new army. But that bothers me for a few reasons. 1. Arguably the whole point of the clone thing is to explain how this army came out of nowhere in a decade or two. That wouldn't be possible with massive capital fleets. 2. There would have been tons of existing Old Republic style ships mixed in with the "clone" Republic fleets in the prequels. 3. Likewise, even accounting for all the stuff the Rebels made off with, the Empire would still have tons of Corellian Corvettes and such in service. No way the Empire made off exclusively with the newer "clone/Sith" hardware while every captain of of the other style of ships went Rebel. Not that everything has to make sense. But Star Wars does spend a lot of detail on its fictional technical details (half the plots are about stealing plans for this or that) so I assume there's an in-universe explanation I don't know about. and what I meant before was maybe certain factions of people (not already empire) joined the rebels, like miltia of powerful people supporting the empire (sry bout bad spelling, hands are cold) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozur Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I've always enjoyed the technical aspects of the ships in Star Wars, going (at least) back to playing games like X-Wing on the PC. Something has been bothering me about the ship designs in SWTOR, and I was wondering if someone could explain it to me. The Old Republic ships are clearly ancestors of those used by the Rebellion in the original movies, while the Sith ships obviously relate to the Galactic Empire. Yet in the prequel movies, the Republic ship aesthetics are also clearly the precursors of the Galactic Empire (which makes sense, Palpatine seizes control of the Republic military). So to me there seem to be two competing evolutions of government v. ship design. Sith Empire -> Galactic Republic -> Galactic Empire and Old Republic -> ??? -> Rebel Alliance Why? I hope that makes sense. Well, first of all, the Galactic Republic and the Old Republic is the same thing. Different designs are the best for certain eras. Really, you should go: Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadows Sith Empire ships -> unique. Old Republic at the time of the Great Sith War -> unique. KOTOR ship designs -> unique. SWTOR ship designs -> a mixture between KOTOR and the Galactic Empire for the Sith, pretty unique for the Republic still. Ships during the Knight Errant timeline -> unique. Ships during Darth Banes time -> unique. They look like crap by the way. Ships during the Phantom Menace -> unique. Ships during the Clone Wars -> unique. Ships during the Galactic Empire -> Sort of look like Clone Wars ships. No surprise there. Rebel Alliance ships -> unique. Mon Calamari ships. New Republic ships -> basically anything that floats. Yuuzhan Vong ships -> very unique. There does not seem to be a competing nor standard ship design, we've had ships that we're long, short, round, square, triangles, invisible, invincible, made of rock, made of animals, possesed by Sith Lords, self controlled. It all comes down to creativity, at one point it just becomes impossible to come up with something new. And you have to admit, the Sith Empire is a lot more intimidating when they have Star Destroyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatTheMad Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Well, first of all, the Galactic Republic and the Old Republic is the same thing. Different designs are the best for certain eras. Really, you should go: Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadows Sith Empire ships -> unique. Old Republic at the time of the Great Sith War -> unique. KOTOR ship designs -> unique. SWTOR ship designs -> a mixture between KOTOR and the Galactic Empire for the Sith, pretty unique for the Republic still. Ships during the Knight Errant timeline -> unique. Ships during Darth Banes time -> unique. They look like crap by the way. Ships during the Phantom Menace -> unique. Ships during the Clone Wars -> unique. Ships during the Galactic Empire -> Sort of look like Clone Wars ships. No surprise there. Rebel Alliance ships -> unique. Mon Calamari ships. New Republic ships -> basically anything that floats. Yuuzhan Vong ships -> very unique. There does not seem to be a competing nor standard ship design, we've had ships that we're long, short, round, square, triangles, invisible, invincible, made of rock, made of animals, possesed by Sith Lords, self controlled. It all comes down to creativity, at one point it just becomes impossible to come up with something new. And you have to admit, the Sith Empire is a lot more intimidating when they have Star Destroyers. I can't comment on several of those cause I've only skimmed the surface of the expanded universe (but input from someone like you who's read more is exactly what I wanted, so that's helpful). Still, I disagree a little on one or two things. The Old Republic ships as seen in SWTOR to me are clearly intended to evoke Corellian design. The corvettes in the space missions aren't coincidentally similar to the one Leia is on in the opening scene of Episode IV, they are direct relatives. The SWTOR Republic Capital ships, although new to me, seem to share the same aesthetic. Ships during the Clone Wars -> unique. Hmmm. Look at those things in Episode II. If those capitals aren't grandchildren of Sith Empire ships and parents of Star Destroyers, I've gone mad. Which is why I distinguished Old Republic and Galactic Republic (I understand that they are the same institution, I only meant to separate ship design eras). Upon reflection, I guess I can leave out the SWTOR Republic, Galactic Empire, and Rebellion, and my question is simply: Why is the Republic as seen in the Episode II and III using Sith ships? I don't think the answer is they ran out of ideas and love triangles. Edited January 14, 2012 by RatTheMad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelousWang Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Rakata ship design (the starforge Capital ships used by Revan and Malak) is superior to all other ship design, hence the Sith use Rakata ship design whenever possible. The Sith Empire could got hold of Rakata ship design from Revan. At some point the "Kuat Drive Yards" must of got hold of Rakata ship design and from there is was them that built both the "clone wars era" Republic ships and the "Galactic Empire" stardestroyers. Edited January 14, 2012 by AngelousWang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNCommand Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 The Republic adopted the Star Destroyer design because of the superior design. The reason for the rebel starship designs is because of their use of every ship available, early in the galactic civil war for example they used a lot of CIS starships, which when studied could remind you of the later Mon Calamari starships http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Recusant-class_light_destroyer During the New Republic era we can see the superiority of the Star Destroyer design when they start to refit and produce their own star destroyers to use in the New Republic Navy Here's an example of a New Republic Super Star Destroyer, the captured Lusankya http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090317090908/starwars/images/e/e7/Crimson_Empire_109.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatTheMad Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 So even if it's not "fact" we can infer that between the SWTOR era and the prequel era the Republic acknowledges the "Sith" (Rakata?) design philosophy is superior and that explains the post-Sith/pre-Empire triangular ships e.g. Episode II? I mean you guys basically said that I'm just trying to tie it together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNCommand Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 So even if it's not "fact" we can infer that between the SWTOR era and the prequel era the Republic acknowledges the "Sith" (Rakata?) design philosophy is superior and that explains the post-Sith/pre-Empire triangular ships e.g. Episode II? I mean you guys basically said that I'm just trying to tie it together. That's the core of the message yes, in fact the triangular ship design is just one of many things the Republic will adopt from the Sith Empire before, during and after the New Sith Wars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatTheMad Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Thanks that's very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 In the Return of the Jedi novelization, the opening contains a brief account of Palpatine's rise to power. In it, it states that he called on the "glory of past Empires" to instill a sense of nationalisim in the wasting Republic. Perhaps calling back to the glory and power of ancient Sith Empire warships was part of that. Sure, they ancient Sith were evil, but they certainly knew how to build a spaceship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZSithSniper Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 It's pretty simple actually; Rebellion ships were 'anything we can get our hands on' at the beginning. When they could actually fund a fully fledged fleet they stuck with what worked best for them, namely Mon Cal designs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatTheMad Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 It's pretty simple actually; Rebellion ships were 'anything we can get our hands on' at the beginning. When they could actually fund a fully fledged fleet they stuck with what worked best for them, namely Mon Cal designs. That makes good sense but doesn't address my central question of why the prequel era Republic seems to be using Sith-derived capital ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalanox Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 That makes good sense but doesn't address my central question of why the prequel era Republic seems to be using Sith-derived capital ships. Because the ships in the prequil era republic were designed before the ships seen in SWTOR were. You're over thinking this way too much. They made the Clone capital ships resemble Star Destroyers because it foreshadowed what was going to happen. The Sith Empire ships look like TIE fighters and Star Destroyers because they're the iconic Empire ships from the movies. Same story for the Republic ships looking like X-wings and the Tantive IV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eimi Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Because the ships in the prequil era republic were designed before the ships seen in SWTOR were. You're over thinking this way too much. They made the Clone capital ships resemble Star Destroyers because it foreshadowed what was going to happen. The Sith Empire ships look like TIE fighters and Star Destroyers because they're the iconic Empire ships from the movies. Same story for the Republic ships looking like X-wings and the Tantive IV. Which sucks imo because it leaves the Empire ships aesthetically superior, to the point where the Republic fleet looks like a bunch of merchant ships trying to fight an actual military power. Copying the Rebel fleet for Republic ship design kinda makes us seem entirely at a disadvantage over the actual navy of the Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whipplesnoodle Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I think palpatine exerted quite some influence on the designs and make up of his future army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfninjajedi Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) Because the ships in the prequil era republic were designed before the ships seen in SWTOR were. You're over thinking this way too much. They made the Clone capital ships resemble Star Destroyers because it foreshadowed what was going to happen. The Sith Empire ships look like TIE fighters and Star Destroyers because they're the iconic Empire ships from the movies. Same story for the Republic ships looking like X-wings and the Tantive IV. Ah...I haven't seen any ships look anything like the GCW ships at all. Only thing that looks close to a star destroyer, is a sith warship. The Republic fighters look like Z-95's rather then X-wings. Other then the sith warship, I haven't seen any ship that looks like a GCW era ship. Edit: The Z-95 was designed before the invasion of naboo, so its not a GCW ship. Edited March 14, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahynor Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Weren't the ships they used of Mon Calamari design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORTTUUM Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 TOR Era - You have the ships of the (Sith) Empire and the Republic-style. Prequel Era- The Sith Empire is gone, and it's all republic. But since a lot of the Republic is compesed of former (Sith) Empire worlds, the Repulic ships have some strong Sith aesthetic influences. Palpatine founds (essentially) the SECOND Empire built on the Sith-influenced Republic ships, and this style continues. New Hope Era- The Rebellion comes along, rejecting any kind of Imperial (Sith or "new") influence, and uses only Calamari and Correllian designs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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