Bioware: Allow Advanced Class Respec!

[Gunryu]

You're the one that has to carry the burden - the feature you want is not in game, nor has it been announced. Just for clarity.

 

 

 

The detrimental effects of switching classes in a class-based RPG should be obvious.

 

I've been hear discussing this same thing for over 3 years, and I've heard it all. There is no solid footing whatsoever under the switching of classes. You simply cannot take a core construct and shake it up without changing the dynamics of the game.

 

You heard about the NGE in Star Wars Galaxies, right? If that happens here, I expect a similar exodus.

 

Again, it is not your class, your class is

 

Bounty Hunter Sith Warrior Imperial Agent Sith Inquisitor for for Empire

 

Trooper Smuggler Jedi Knight Jedi Councilor for Republic

 

Don't believe me? Check the website under Holonet/Classes for proof! They do not list Vanguard or Sorcerer under there, no that is listed under SPECIALIZATION!

[aznthecapn]

Hurling ad hominems around like calling me "narrow minded" won't progress this discussion, in fact it'll just make me want to stop discussing this with you while other people are discussing it in a mature manner.

 

Its only ad hominem if you took it personally which it was not intended. You're restricting your view of the counter argument to a narrow field of what you find to be acceptable. There are choices beyond the realm of "good or bad for this game" that come into play. Is it good or bad for a player to have to relearn a completely different style of gameplay? If it good or bad for Bioware to have to program this feature and potentially make balancing efforts more difficult? Is it good or bad for people who choose to play on the cutting edge of PvP and PvE to feel the need to change classes (at a cost mind you, since these things often pan out as cash sinks for the company) on a per-fight basis because their alternate class is better at X, Y or Z? These are all things that pertain to the good of others who PLAY/DESIGN the game but not necessarily the game itself.

 

 

LS/DS points aren't really relevant to this because you barely break 1,000 in the sort of level range I have in mind. And even if you did, so what? You can change your alignment at any time by questing. The same goes for affection.

 

 

 

I am pretty sure nobody is asking for faction change, only an AC change. And changing your AC does not change your class quest.

 

I didn't say you were: I said you'd have more success asking for a faction change and thereby seeing the fruits of your labor having leveled the mirror class of you choice on the opposing faction. Leveled a Gunslinger but decided you'd rather heal? Cool, level an Operative instead. Ask for faction changes while you do it, see it implemented, pay a fee - BAM: you've got a Scoundrel at max level and got to see an all new storyline. Finish leveling your Gunslinger as an alt at your leisure to finish that storyline.

[Gradivus]

And for those who picked a advanced class they didn't like then what?

 

People will always find a way to mess up their game. Same goes with character creation. And for those people who picked Empire instead of Republic but don't like it? And for those who picked the lightside dialogue option but didn't like how the story played out afterwards?

If you picked something you don't like, you have only yourself to blame. Deal with it or make a new character. Others shouldn't have their experience dumbed down because you made a mistake. Yes - that's exactly what it is. Where nothing matters anymore and every stupid choice can always be reversed and fixed - hence, everything loses any meaning.

 

We already had this with the option to kill companions - stupid people who did it by "accident" (read - out of pure stupidity) whined loud enough and forced to water down the companion system. I said it than and repeat it now - in the end, this helps no one. People who are dumb enough to kill their companions without realizing the consequences will be dumb enough to choose the AC without realizing the consequences and make their character without realizing the consequences. You cannot make a game idiot-proof. Even if you water it down endlessly, these people won't appreciate it because they'll find 1000 other ways to gimp themselves - hence, dumbing things down only hurts those people who would enjoy a meaningful consequence system. The other ones will whine anyway.

 

Good day!

[BurnGround]

i vote NO

[Gunryu]

Forget it, I am sick of arguing with people who only know console FPS games and have no clue about MMOs, I am going to go play before I get banned because all you are doing is annoying me with how little you know.

[hata]

What I am riled up and frustrated about is people can't tell the difference between a class and an archetype! It's simple commons sense in the MMO world!

 

I understand your point and I get where in some games and archtype/subclass could be able to be changed. I do not believe it would be good in this game.

 

I would also say do not get to upset about people not using the exact word you prefer like archtype vs class. Some people such as yourself will say this is an subclass change issue and other will define them as a class. I personally see them as 8 distinct class/subclasses in were if there was an ability to at will change them could cause game instability.

 

I think a lot of people under stand the difference you are trying to explain. Thy just view the initial choice as a pre-class. If they were labeled that way and the ACs labeled as classes would there be this need to define.

 

I am not trying to annoy you just trying to discuss, so it all lightly. I just feel the message you care valiantly putting forth is getting lost in definitions.

 

Im a tauntaun and i approve this message.

[xXJayeDubXx]

No. No. No.

[GCRust]

They flat out tell you "Once you pick your advanced class, there's no going back". If you come to find that you don't care for the AC you rolled... roll a new character.

 

I wanted to be a Imperial Agent Sniper. By Level 20, I wasn't digging the mechanics or the fact I was pure DPS without any "tricks". So what did I do? I re-rolled the character into a Operative.

 

Yeah it sucked going back through content I'd already been through, but I didn't blame Bioware for it. I just discovered I didn't like being a Sniper all that much.

[aznthecapn]

Forget it, I am sick of arguing with people who only know console FPS games and have no clue about MMOs, I am going to go play before I get banned because all you are doing is annoying me with how little you know.

 

The difference between archetype, class, advanced class and specialization in this game are OBVIOUSLY not defined clearly since the developers choose to use them interchangeably. Your attempt to base your entire argument on what they are called is building a house on sand. You've already changed what you call them twice. From AC to Archetype to Specialization depending on who you're arguing with.

 

What they are called has no bearing on how they function and as it stands, they function like a class.

[Pyrolight]

Yeah it sucked going back through content I'd already been through, but I didn't blame Bioware for it. I just discovered I didn't like being a Sniper all that much.

 

Generally we are just saying it is unnecessary to have AC restrictions. They don't seem to serve and really useful purpose when there is no new story to see and as far as play style changes go, they are the same as other games that do allow dual spec.

 

I just cannot understand what benefit is being offered by the restriction.

[Esaru]

Class

 

Advanced Class

 

 

Learn the difference please. Game Info tab at the top ^ will help you.

 

What you people essentially want to do is restrict the entire game to FOUR CLASSES ON BOTH SIDES (yes, they're mirrors). Tell me, what decent MMO has a measly FOUR classes? Why in the hell would you want to effectively halve the amount of unique classes available?

 

Come on people

Edited January 14, 2012 by Esaru

[BrigOrion]

"any sort of Advanced Class changing is not under discussion for launch, or even right after launch." -Reid

 

(meaning this discussion shouldnt be happening) but since it is:

 

Imo they should never allow this, advanced class should just be renamed class and your original class should be named "archetype" or something. Your AC is not just a mild diff from the other AC, they are completely and fully fleshed out classes. There is nothing whatsoever that has any commonality between an assassin and sage or a jugg and murader. There is no game in the history of mmos that allows you to be a tank class one day and suddenly a heal class the next (unless maybe you count paladins).

 

Edit to point out: I really dont want someone who leveled up as a sage suddenly deciding to become a tank and try to main tank for my raid. Levels 1-50 help you to learn your class, skills, roles, etc. A sage who suddenly has an entirely new energy pool/skill cost/skill trees/skills/role will not be able to learn it all as effectively as someone who was introduced to it a level at a time.

 

There are many other MMO players with this same fantasy. There is, however, no truth to it. At all.

[aznthecapn]

In TOR, Jedi Knight is IN FACT an archetype of both Jedi Guardian and Jedi Sentinel. Your lack of any previous experience with MMOs is patently obvious.

 

An archetype (play /ˈɑrkɪtaɪp/) is a universally understood symbol or term[1] or pattern of behavior, a prototype upon which others are copied, patterned, or emulated. Archetypes are often used in myths and storytelling across different cultures.

 

A Jedi Guardian is neither copied, patterned or emulated from a Jedi Knight. On its own, a Jedi Knight is nothing. He has few useful skills and a very limited range of abilities. It is not until he choose a class - Guardian or Sentinel - that he becomes that archetype which we represent.

[PJEBarlow]

As others have noted: Because you actually only play the first 10 levels to choose your Advanced Class. What if you had to choose it at level 1 like you do in other MMO's and instead of sharing a base set of skills with another class, it was totally different?

 

I'd be totally fine with choosing the advanced class at level 1 instead of level 10, it would have the same net effect as a respec essentially.

 

Its only ad hominem if you took it personally which it was not intended.

 

No, it's an ad hominem if your entire counter-argument is "well you won't accept my reasoning because you're just narrow-minded". Which is what it seems to be.

 

I'm simply asking for a logical reason for this feature not to be implemented, it naturally follows that the reason would involve it being detrimental to the game otherwise how could you rationally argue against it?

 

You're restricting your view of the counter argument to a narrow field of what you find to be acceptable. There are choices beyond the realm of "good or bad for this game" that come into play. Is it good or bad for a player to have to relearn a completely different style of gameplay?

 

You can currently switch between roles by skill tree respec. i.e. Sorcerers can switch between DPS and healing.

 

If it good or bad for Bioware to have to program this feature and potentially make balancing efforts more difficult?

 

How would if make balance difficult? The AC would be the same, people would still play all ACs.

 

Is it good or bad for people who choose to play on the cutting edge of PvP and PvE to feel the need to change classes (at a cost mind you, since these things often pan out as cash sinks for the company) on a per-fight basis because their alternate class is better at X, Y or Z? These are all things that pertain to the good of others who PLAY/DESIGN the game but not necessarily the game itself.

 

Why are any of these things bad? And need I remind you people will switch to the "OP PvP spec" anyway, they just have to invest time instead of credits. Being able to respec your AC is not going to invent this problem, it already exists.

 

I didn't say you were: I said you'd have more success asking for a faction change and thereby seeing the fruits of your labor having leveled the mirror class of you choice on the opposing faction. Leveled a Gunslinger but decided you'd rather heal? Cool, level an Operative instead. Ask for faction changes while you do it, see it implemented, pay a fee - BAM: you've got a Scoundrel at max level and got to see an all new storyline. Finish leveling your Gunslinger as an alt at your leisure to finish that storyline.

 

But we're not asking for faction changes, we're asking to be able to respec our AC on our existing character so that we don't lose (or worse, have to re-tread) the exact same content just to get back to where we already were.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[aznthecapn]

I'd be totally fine with choosing the advanced class at level 1 instead of level 10, it would have the same net effect as a respec essentially.

 

And you wouldn't still be asking for a way to change AC at level 40?

[hata]

And you wouldn't still be asking for a way to change AC at level 40?

 

has a valid point. you basically agreed to rerolling.

[princey]

You blindly pick your class after already having invested several hours into your character.

 

So you're admitting to not taking the opportunities, that the game provides, to look over the fundamentals of the advanced classes before making your choice? You don't bother to look at the codex entries you get before making your choice? You don't inspect the skill trees before choosing, another thing the game allows you to do? Do you just go "eeny meanie" to make you choice? That's not a reason to allow AC respecs, and if you look at the information that the game provides you prior to making your choice, then you are not "blindly picking".

 

While I will concede to being fine with them allowing a one-time-only AC respec prior to level 20, anything after that, or in a greater number, will cause more problems than it solves, by an enormous margin. It won't give players "choice" as the OP suggests. In fact, it will only serve to remove more choice from the game. It'll make the decision at level 10 a psuedo-choice, one with no consequence.

 

If they were to allow AC swapping more than once, and at 50, the door opens for numerous problems. You will have players needing on gear for their "alternate spec", as if needing for companions isn't bad enough. You'll have players being strong armed to respec so the group doesn't have to wait on a healer or tank. You'll have people being alienated by their own guilds into playing a role that they don't prefer. Dual speccing within one AC will already see those last two to some degree, but swappable ACs will only facilitate that mindset.

 

ACs are not equivalent to talent trees in any other game. This system isn't some unknown, brand new feature, never before seen in the MMO space. It was in DAoC back in 2001. Classes with the same starting class shared basic skills and had advanced skill that differentiated them. (Sound familiar?) I didn't see anyone begging or demanding to change their Paladin into an Armsman back then. If they did, I'm sure they would have been told to reroll a fighter and choose Armsman at level 5 this time, just like people should expect to do here.

 

Again, I can understand developing a distaste for an AC prior to level 20. That's plenty enough time to ascertain whether you like that class or not. Suffering with an AC that you hate, just to get to 50 and swap, or using an AC that you perceive as "easier to level" only to switch to the one you want at cap? No. Big no. That would be asking for a system just so you could abuse it.

[Brundhila]

Am I missing something? You choose your specialization at level 10. Play it for a few levels and if you dont like it reroll. You can make level 10 in a few hours of play. What's the problem?

[PJEBarlow]

And you wouldn't still be asking for a way to change AC at level 40?

 

No because if the AC is chosen at level 1 it's exactly the same as being able to respec, you've not invested a significant amount of time already.

 

I would be fine with either a. AC being chosen at a very early level (if not 1) or b. AC being changeable later for a fee with limitations. The core issue most people promoting this idea have is losing invested time, both options would be a solution.

 

Am I missing something? You choose your specialization at level 10. Play it for a few levels and if you dont like it reroll. You can make level 10 in a few hours of play. What's the problem?

 

If you had read the thread whatsoever you would know the problem is that people don't want to waste a few hours of play (which is a lot of time to a lot of people) re-treading the exact same content just to get back to exactly where they were before.

 

Implementing a respec option, or choosing your AC at level 1, would prevent this.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[doctor_atomic]

Bioware,

 

Please allow Advanced Class Respec. There's no reason for this, give players the choice! If you're worried it will hurt your story or something - don't. You don't seem to care you send Jedi to go slaughter hundreds of Sand People, so why care about something that is needlessly restricting players?

 

Thanks!

 

EDIT:

If you want to say "NO" or "Bioware will never do this!"...

 

WATCH:

 

Thanks to Salzwasser for the link.

 

...and to finally put matters to rest, read: http://torwars.com/2011/12/01/stephen-reid-on-advanced-class-switching/

 

No.

 

What's next, will people whine to be able to change their base class too?

[aznthecapn]

Am I missing something? You choose your specialization at level 10. Play it for a few levels and if you dont like it reroll. You can make level 10 in a few hours of play. What's the problem?

 

People who took until level 40+ to realize they didn't like their AC (AKA were told it was underpowered at 50) and now want to swap and pretend the gameplay difference doesn't exist.

[Pyrolight]

A Jedi Guardian is neither copied, patterned or emulated from a Jedi Knight. On its own, a Jedi Knight is nothing. He has few useful skills and a very limited range of abilities. It is not until he choose a class - Guardian or Sentinel - that he becomes that archetype which we represent.

 

1. On the Holonet Bioware calls "AC" Specializations.

2 On the Holonet Bioware calls "base classes" archetypes

3. The Jedi Guardian and Sentinel both use Jedi Knight skills and gain them to 50.

4. By the definition an archetype cannot be a specialization it would have to have no common traits or abilities.

5. While you gain new abilities the base traits do not change from Knight -> Guardian.

6. Prototype and base design = Jedi Knight.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Pyrolight

[hata]

No because if the AC is chosen at level 1 it's exactly the same as being able to respec, you've not invested a significant amount of time already.

 

I would be fine with either a. AC being chosen at a very early level (if not 1) or b. AC being changeable later for a fee with limitations.

 

The core issue most people promoting this idea have is losing invested time, both options would be a solution.

 

But whether it is chosen at lvl 10 or 1 you are still releveling. I do not understand what you are trying to say. you call making a new character a respec if its at lvl 1 but it is still rerolling. and you can currently do that you just pick your AC at lvl 10 which even if you picked it at 1 would still have to lvl to 10 eventually.

[PJEBarlow]

People who took until level 40+ to realize they didn't like their AC (AKA were told it was underpowered at 50) and now want to swap and pretend the gameplay difference doesn't exist.

 

Since the quests are the same for both ACs and you can make alignment and affection go any way you want, there isn't a difference. The only difference would really be if you got some great items on your way to 40+ (or even 10+) you would lose them, or if you levelled up your crafting you would lose that.

 

Essentially, keeping the current method over a level 1 AC choice or a respec is only promoting losing all your time and stuff over an understandable change of mind.

 

But whether it is chosen at lvl 10 or 1 you are still releveling. I do not understand what you are trying to say. you call making a new character a respec if its at lvl 1 but it is still rerolling. and you can currently do that you just pick your AC at lvl 10 which even if you picked it at 1 would still have to lvl to 10 eventually.

 

You seem to have gotten mixed up, because the two things aren't mutually exclusive. Even if they implemented it in a way that you chose your AC at level 1 instead of level 10, it would only be fair to give everyone the option of a free one-off respec (in fact they'd probably actually do this if they ever made any changes to talent trees and whatnot).

 

I'm not saying "I'd happily delete my level X character if I could respec my AC at level 1", because I wouldn't. I'd be happier because it would mean the situation would never come up again, but I'd probably still not re-roll my current character and would prefer a one-off respec for it.

 

I am saying it's a good alternative to a respec system that is implemented and stays in the game permanently.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[Kourage]

Wonder why they changed their mind about it.

Probably someone suggested they could charge $10 for it down the road.