Bioware: Allow Advanced Class Respec!

[Gunryu]

But people aren't asking to change their peanut butter cookies for chocolate chip, they're asking to change it for a loaf of bread.

 

 

No..........they aren't! Even on their own website under classes they say that ACs are ARCHETYPES not classes! Do you know what an archetype is?

 

Here just in case.......

 

1. The original pattern or model of a work; or the model from which a thing is made or formed.[/Quote]

Edited January 14, 2012 by Gunryu

[Pyrolight]

No they're really not. The Sith Warrior plays in the same way from level one to level 10. At level 10 I get to choose my Advanced Class and gain unique class abilities. At level 10 I ALSO get to put points into a skill tree in which to further refine my unique class abilities. It's exactly the same as DAoC and not like WoW.

 

You gain access to talent trees at 10 in WoW which you can put points into.

 

Again I am talking about how the AC play vs talent trees, not the exact setup.

 

A Jug is arms/prot and mara is fury in effective function.

 

WoW's warrior doesn't play the same as a WoW Druid from level one to 10. A Warrior in Wow can spec into three different play styles at level 10 but they don't change their basic fundamental class, they don't suddenly become able to heal or to cast magic.

 

I think you are being intentionally obtuse intentionally here. When did I ever say a Warrior = Druid or can ever be a druid. I never one made the direct comparison between sith warrior and sith inquisitor.

 

That's the difference between changing between classes and changing between specialisations.

 

Which has nothing to do at all with the comparison of the AC or according to the website are specializations and talent trees.

[BrigOrion]

This is just another thing they got wrong because the devs utterly failed to learn from other MMOs' mistakes.

 

When EQ2 launched everyone started out as a commoner. At level 2 we picked our archetype. At level 10 we picked our class. At level 20 we picked our subclass. We didn't get to find out what the subclass actually played like until level 34. It was a fail design in EQ2, and it is a fail design in TOR.

 

SOE finally woke up and dropped the whole system so that you picked your final subclass right at character creation so you could actually find out whether or not the class was right for you within a few levels rather than spending weeks or months playing the game only to have to reroll to something different.

[hata]

Here is the best example I can give before I give up because you guys are too stubborn to understand a concept like subclass and classes........

 

I have a bakery, in the bakery I make cookies and decide to make chocolate chip, peanut butter, sugar, molasses, and chocolate............those are sub categories of cookies THEY ARE NOT CAKE!

 

Saying because someone wants to change from their AC it's they want to change their class is saying someone wants a piece of cake because they want to exchange for chocolate chip from peanut butter cookies!

 

So you can understand. I do not want people to be able to change their SUBclass.

[Pyrolight]

No..........they aren't! Even on their own website under classes they say that ACs are ARCH-TYPES not classes! Do you know what an arch-type is?

 

No they don't.

 

Show me where on that page an AC is listed. The BASE classes are listed as the archetypes and the AC are specifically called specializations.

 

It's not even ambiguous.

 

You even posted the definition. Both Sentinel and Guardian are based on the Jedi Knight class, you know the original aka archetype.

 

noun

1.

the original pattern or model from which all things of the same kind are copied or on which they are based; a model or first form; prototype.

 

just to quote it again.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Pyrolight

[aznthecapn]

Because this is how discussion works. One side proposes a change, the side that is against this change proposes a reason why it would be detrimental to the game if it were implemented. That is how you convince people their idea is a bad idea.

 

Except you're restricting your acceptance of why its a bad idea. To you, the only way its a bad idea is if its detrimental to the game and there's many ways its a bad idea beyond this. Is it my fault or anyone else's that you're too narrow minded to see that?

 

There is an avenue available to people who want to change their advanced class, but the entire reason this question is asked over and over is because people don't see why that avenue couldn't use a change. Why arbitrarily make people re-tread over hours of content, mashing their space bar, if they will end up back in the same position as the way we propose?

 

Because it CAN be different. Every choice you make affects the path of your character, be it LS/DS points to companion affection. If it matters that much to you to change your AC, you should be more than willing to do what you need to get there, and time spent on the forums is time you could be spending leveling the AC you want.

 

There's also a completely different side to the story on Republic/Empire. There's always a choice of going over there and picking the mirror image of your AC. If story and choice matters as little to you as it seems, just do it over there and see the new content. You'd be more successful battling for a faction change than a class change.

[Keihryon]

There is an avenue available to people who want to change their advanced class, but the entire reason this question is asked over and over is because people don't see why that avenue couldn't use a change. Why arbitrarily make people re-tread over hours of content, mashing their space bar, if they will end up back in the same position as the way we propose?

 

 

There's your avenue. but, because it isn't an instant gratification avenue, it is unacceptable.

 

I think i see your problem now.

[Gunryu]

So you can understand. I do not want people to be able to change their SUBclass.

 

 

So you are fine with forcing people to re-roll a class and go through the same story because they found out at level 30 they dislike what they picked because they are underpowered? You will find not many people are willing to do this which in turn will cause said people to either

 

1) Quit the game

 

or

 

2) Stick with an underpowered class forcing others to make up the difference in damage or exclude them from groups

 

Yeah real fair there.

[aznthecapn]

No..........they aren't! Even on their own website under classes they say that ACs are ARCHETYPES not classes! Do you know what an archetype is?

 

 

You're splitting hairs. In every way, advanced classes function as classes. Their playstyle is different, their talent trees are (mostly) different, many of the skills don't overlap. That is a sign of different classes.

 

What the developers choose to label them on the website is not indicative of their function.

[Gunryu]

No they don't.

 

Show me where on that page an AC is listed. The BASE classes are listed as the archetypes and the AC are specifically called specializations.

 

It's not even ambiguous.

 

You even posted the definition. Both Sentinel and Guardian are based on the Jedi Knight class, you know the original aka archetype.

 

 

 

just to quote it again.

 

 

Go look under classes on the website it's not difficult to find if you read.

 

In the decades since the Great War began, a careful study of professional classifications, or classes, has identified several archetypes of great interest. Individuals belonging to these classes gravitate towards key roles in history-making events. Because of the likelihood that representatives of these archetypes will shape the future of the galaxy, a closer analysis of each class is warranted and is posted here for further study and discussion.[/Quote]

 

You're splitting hairs. In every way, advanced classes function as classes. Their playstyle is different, their talent trees are (mostly) different, many of the skills don't overlap. That is a sign of different classes.

 

What the developers choose to label them on the website is not indicative of their function.[/Quote]

 

A frost mage and a fire mage play different they are not different classes, a sub rogue and a combat rogue play different they are not different classes.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Gunryu

[PJEBarlow]

I resorted to utter nonsense because I believe the topic of discussion is utter nonsense.

 

Well that's real mature.

 

As far as a simple explanation goes, well, simple explanations are useless on these forums from what I've seen. If I had certifiable proof that I was correct the opposing side of the argument would still call BS. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

That's really just speculation though, not only that but it's a pre-emptive ad hominem and not useful to the discussion.

 

Here's a simple explanation anyway, more time sink = more money, coming from Bioware/EA perspective. Do I agree with this one? Not really. But that was about as simple as I could come up with.

 

I don't agree because it's actually saying a bad thing about the game if they rely on arbitrary time sinks to keep us subscribed. I know MMOs are full of time sinks, but usually they serve a real purpose (such as travelling instead of being able to teleport anywhere in the game world). Making people re-roll to change their AC doesn't really serve a purpose, it's just the way it happens to be and I'd argue there'd be no harm in changing it slightly.

 

BTW, under level 16 with a fee... it wouldn't be the end of the world. But, I think most people are asking for more than this.

 

I'm curious as to why it would matter if it was even up to level 30 with a fee and limited number of respecs (as an example).

[BrigOrion]

You're splitting hairs. In every way, advanced classes function as classes. Their playstyle is different, their talent trees are (mostly) different, many of the skills don't overlap. That is a sign of different classes.

 

What the developers choose to label them on the website is not indicative of their function.

 

There are about a dozen skill differences between each fraternal twin. That isn't "many of the skills", because most of the skills are shared.

[aznthecapn]

1) Quit the game

 

Their choice, but if something this insignificant causes them to quit, they had one foot out the door already. If it matters enough, someone will find a way to make it happen. This includes playing the new class with different choices or choosing to do so on the other faction for a new experience.

 

 

 

2) Stick with an underpowered class forcing others to make up the difference in damage or exclude them from groups

 

 

Balance should not be the deciding factor on your AC. Balance always changes. If people are permitted to change their AC on a whim because of balance issues, there would be not point to trying to balance.

[hata]

So you are fine with forcing people to re-roll a class and go through the same story because they found out at level 30 they dislike what they picked because they are underpowered? You will find not many people are willing to do this which in turn will cause said people to either

 

1) Quit the game

 

or

 

2) Stick with an underpowered class forcing others to make up the difference in damage or exclude them from groups

 

Yeah real fair there.

 

yeah I think that. I believe you are being slightly over dramatic but I understand you are riled up you have been posting for a while and are frustrated.

 

I do feel that being able to at will change your subclass would cause game balance issues. do i believe there could never be a one time switch with a 6 to 12 month reset eh that would be fine. because many people would choose not to use it.

[aznthecapn]

There are about a dozen skill differences between each fraternal twin. That isn't "many of the skills", because most of the skills are shared.

 

Definition of MANY

1

: consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number

 

Its many. I didn't say most. I said many. Key word: indefinite.

[Gunryu]

Their choice, but if something this insignificant causes them to quit, they had one foot out the door already. If it matters enough, someone will find a way to make it happen. This includes playing the new class with different choices or choosing to do so on the other faction for a new experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Balance should not be the deciding factor on your AC. Balance always changes. If people are permitted to change their AC on a whim because of balance issues, there would be not point to trying to balance.

 

 

Insignificant??????? How is making it so they can't enjoy the class the pick insignificant????? If I am level 30 and decide that my Sniper is underpowered or performs badly I don't want to have to go through all the crap to get him back there!

[Keihryon]

Insignificant??????? How is making it so they can't enjoy the class the pick insignificant????? If I am level 30 and decide that my Sniper is underpowered or performs badly I don't want to have to go through all the crap to get him back there!

 

If you are calling the gameplay you did to get him there crap...you are playing the wrong game.

 

If you are rolling with a sentinal, try a juggernaut, Different AC, different Story, gear etc...

Edited January 14, 2012 by Keihryon

[Gunryu]

yeah I think that. I believe you are being slightly over dramatic but I understand you are riled up you have been posting for a while and are frustrated.

 

I do feel that being able to at will change your subclass would cause game balance issues. do i believe there could never be a one time switch with a 6 to 12 month reset eh that would be fine. because many people would choose not to use it.

 

 

What I am riled up and frustrated about is people can't tell the difference between a class and an archetype! It's simple commons sense in the MMO world!

[aznthecapn]

Insignificant??????? How is making it so they can't enjoy the class the pick insignificant????? If I am level 30 and decide that my Sniper is underpowered or performs badly I don't want to have to go through all the crap to get him back there!

 

Then I guess it doesn't matter to you. Try a trooper instead.

 

For the record, I'm perfectly fine with a finite number of AC changes prior to max level (cap it at 40 or so) but it should not be an option at endgame where your choice should matter for the long term. AC should be a choice based on preferred playstyle - not balance which shifts and changes from patch to patch. If you can't decide whether or not you like your chosen playstyle by 40, then too bad.

[Skylarke]

No it isn't, it follows the mechanics of Dark Age of Camelot or EverQuest II before it gets anywhere near WoW or Rift.

 

This.

 

/unsigned

[kitsunethefox]

I guess no one played EQ2. I'm not going to read the 50+ pages of replies so here goes:

 

In EQ2, when you did a "betrayal quest(changing factions)" you could change your class. Sometimes, for paladins, you were forced to become the "evil" counterpart(shadowknight).

 

But for "neutral" classes(like rogue, bard, or druid), you were given the option to change your "advanced class" or not. Very easy and simple change, besides the entirely new spam of abilities to learn.

 

I don't see what the big deal is about being able to change your advanced class. The story will be the same, the companions will be the same. You will have to relearn a lot of new abilities and find an entire set of new gear, but this is all manageable.

[BobTheTeepo]

Insignificant??????? How is making it so they can't enjoy the class the pick insignificant????? If I am level 30 and decide that my Sniper is underpowered or performs badly I don't want to have to go through all the crap to get him back there!

 

No class is that imbalanced. JK/SW have a harder time with content, but you're only going to see a vast improvement by switching to Trooper/BH, furthermore, all content is easily cleared by using your healer pet (Doc, and Quinn for each respective class).

 

While I at least agree that there should be a limited respec (one that costs real life cash, or one that can only be used once) I think you're being WAY too over dramatic.

Edited January 14, 2012 by BobTheTeepo

[MigSebes]

It's an advanced CLASS, not spec. There is no need for respecs. Should we be able to respec to another class too? no? Then voila!

[Gunryu]

If you are calling the gameplay you did to get him there crap...you are playing the wrong game.

 

 

No what I am saying is I don't want to have to repeat the same story I have already seen to get to level 30! It's bad enough I have to do the same voice acted cut scenes for dang near everything just to have a different class let alone an archetype!

[PJEBarlow]

Except you're restricting your acceptance of why its a bad idea. To you, the only way its a bad idea is if its detrimental to the game and there's many ways its a bad idea beyond this. Is it my fault or anyone else's that you're too narrow minded to see that?

 

Hurling ad hominems around like calling me "narrow minded" won't progress this discussion, in fact it'll just make me want to stop discussing this with you while other people are discussing it in a mature manner.

 

The reason I "limit" my acceptance of why it's a bad idea to "something that's detrimental to the game" is because that's a simple logical standpoint, and it's how discussions work. Why would you argue against a change if it would theoretically only have a positive net effect on the game without taking anything away from it?

 

If you're against the proposition, the onus is upon you to demonstrate why it's bad.

 

Because it CAN be different. Every choice you make affects the path of your character, be it LS/DS points to companion affection. If it matters that much to you to change your AC, you should be more than willing to do what you need to get there, and time spent on the forums is time you could be spending leveling the AC you want.

 

LS/DS points aren't really relevant to this because you barely break 1,000 in the sort of level range I have in mind. And even if you did, so what? You can change your alignment at any time by questing. The same goes for affection.

 

There's also a completely different side to the story on Republic/Empire. There's always a choice of going over there and picking the mirror image of your AC. If story and choice matters as little to you as it seems, just do it over there and see the new content. You'd be more successful battling for a faction change than a class change.

 

I am pretty sure nobody is asking for faction change, only an AC change. And changing your AC does not change your class quest.

 

There's your avenue. but, because it isn't an instant gratification avenue, it is unacceptable.

 

I think i see your problem now.

 

Are you guys just getting upset now, or what? Because people are making some pretty demeaning assumptions about me now. No, this is not about instant gratification, it's about the difference between difficulty and tedium.