HHHHellraizer Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Dear Bioware, You were merged with Mythic by EA. Mythic was the company that designed one of the greatest PvP games of the last 15 years - that being DAoC. Totally agree with OP, DAoC was the best PvP game that has been out in ages. Realm vs Realm was just that! enemies beating on your doorstep and your gates to take your land and take your relics. Its amazing how skilled the healers and casters were in DAoC. Recall that anything short of someone looking at you interrupted your cast. Healers and Casters in this game were AMAZING at kiting and healing on the run. Once world of warcraft came out (along with other games) they made it so that anyone can cast with 5 people beating on them. This was a step in the wrong direction in pvp design, but it is one that every lazy MMO developer has mirrored since then. Sure the game released with a TERRIBLE CC system, but in no time it was fixed with a fantastic system of diminishing returns. Gear was also a fantastic implementation. Everyone could spellcraft their top tier armor with max stats, THUS giving everyone a perfectly even field that only rewarded cohesive group play and player skill. Once they added the PVE expansions we can ALL agree that the game went to complete crap. It made terrible players gods (like all items in modern MMOs) and it FORCED the PvP community to do PVE raids and all the PVE content and expansions just to stay competitive. Forcing your player base to do anything is always a bad choice. Mordern day MMOs are like a nuclear arms race. You have people who have power vs other people who have power, and its an even fight determined by skill. You then have one side who massively gears out and feels awesome and has FUN because they not destroy the competition. Someone at some point comes along, plays more than you, gets better items and then destroys you and kills your fun. In the end, items are the root of all evil. So how do we reward people for PvPing while not making it a complete land slide for new players or those with less time? I dont mind gear giving slightly more damage, more hp, etc What I think is stupid is to have items that are flat out better than other counterparts and then add ANOTHER stat like expertise that essentially boosts its effectiveness orders of magnitude more than anything else. DAoC had the right idea, give players the chance to upgrade their characters via Realm Points and add incentives like relics that give +melee/+magic damage boosts. The idea behind a PvP game has always been to fight another human being on equal footing and prove yourself more skillful in battle. Somewhere along the way we got lost as game developers and decided that to have fun we need to acquire more powerful items to outpace the competition, and once outpaced we must have another carrot ahead of us teasing us with even BETTER gear so we can further outpace the competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AidenPryde Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 12 WZ losses in a row facing level 50 Champ/Battlemaster Republic players... Best example of what will happen when Brackets are in without Valor caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon- Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I hope Bioware fix the PvP before people motivation is run down and they moved on to other games. Because once motivation is gone it's doesn't matter if other parts of the game are great. There is always this bad taste in your mouth making people reluctant to play at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circuits Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I love paying 15 bucks a month to get farmed by premades of geared 50s, watching everyone afk at spawn because they got tired of getting two shotted. I should just tape down my w key during matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AidenPryde Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 I love paying 15 bucks a month to get farmed by premades of geared 50s, watching everyone afk at spawn because they got tired of getting two shotted. I should just tape down my w key during matches. Its getting to the point where I can't complete my dailies because they require a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumfizz Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 PVP system is fine. Once they get rid of the 50s. What is flawed is that i have to come here and read nonsense in between zone loads because they take so long. Anyways, Alderaaaaaan finally loaded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolutelyz Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) PVP system is fine. Once they get rid of the 50s. What is flawed is that i have to come here and read nonsense in between zone loads because they take so long. Anyways, Alderaaaaaan finally loaded... Rofl, Nope current pvp is flawed Edited January 14, 2012 by Absolutelyz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordhaizen Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 The point is no one as lvl 50 want play with lvl 10 in team If you cry about this is cuz you want more easy games for empire Fact AH in republic is pathetic in my server like same search results in 4 pages and in dark side like 200 pages , stop cry you will not beat valor 100 easy like that prepare for real warzone no more easy valor and stop QQ still done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AidenPryde Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 PVP system is fine. Once they get rid of the 50s. What is flawed is that i have to come here and read nonsense in between zone loads because they take so long. Anyways, Alderaaaaaan finally loaded... PvP system isn't fine. I'm running against 50s with full PvP gear and cant hurt them, can't out damage their healers, can't do anything against them. 20 losses in a row now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTyrantXerxis Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Your whole problem with pvp hinges on the fact that gear is a divider, but guess what: You're playing an MMO. Even in your proposal the people who have your version of PVP gear would still have a significant advantage over non-pvpers. It's a case of the have and the have nots, and the have nots are going to complain until they earn their right to be in the haves. (P.S. I only have 2 pieces of PVP gear) Now let me explain this, if your gear was implimented then gear would essentially be thrown back to the pre-resilience days of WoW. The reason this is bad, because apparently you have short-term memory if you actually do have all this experience in MMOs, is that once people gear up for raids they will do massive damage and with no stat to defend against it people literally get one shot. You honestly don't remember that from WoW? Because I only had BWL gear and I was oneshotting priests all over the place. Not even Nax gear, just T2. BWs only mistake in this system was making expertise increase your damage. That's unneccesary, I feel, as the stats on the gear itself is enough of a dps increase that it's not needed. Your entire arguement is flawed because in MMOs gear will always be a strong influence on the outcome of fights. If you don't like that, then I suggest you try a new type of game where that ISN'T an influence (or go play Legends in DCUO. That's an MMO and there is a PVP game mode where gear is removed. Oh yeah, but everyone hates that game mode. ) ******** ... all they need to do is remove Expertise and replace it with higher defensive stats, i.e. Armor, Resists, and HP on the PvP gear. Simple, now someone who is decked in raid gear is not going to "one-shot"anyone in pvp gear. I pvp'd pretty heavily in WoW until Resilience came out. Then I quit .. the game all together. Resilience killed that game in my eyes. And I know more than one person that agrees with me on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrdust Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Agree with op 100% hope this **** is heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AidenPryde Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Agree with op 100% hope this **** is heard. 25 losses in a row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_Waltfeld Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 /signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bregah Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I just want to say I completely agree with the OP, and as someone who's done the gear grind multiple times on multiple toons in WoW, I will not do it again in any game. PvP should be about skill. Your skill should not be artificially boosted because of the amount of time you've PvP'd - your skill should be your skill. If I'm a fresh level 50, in regular level 50 gear, and am better than you, you shouldn't get a free win because, while less skilled than me, you have grinded your gear for 2 or 3 months. That's simply not actually competition. To put it another way - would the community see it as fair in Starcraft 2 if, for every 100 wins you have, one of your units permanently got 5% more damage, more health and more defense? So that after 1000 wins, 10 different units were boosted always, and after 2000 wins, 20 different units had this auto-boost? Eventually you could just grind enough wins so that every unit for every race you produced was 5% better than a person who just bought the game. Do you think Starcraft 2 would continue to be viewed as a competitive esport if that were the case? No - it would be viewed as a joke by everyone who played all past RTSs that didn't offer your units a boost for wins. There is a reason why in WoW's arena tournaments everyone gets top gear - it's because they are testing skill. As someone who enjoys PvP immensely, I know I will not PvP on any character the moment they ding 50 (once the 50-only bracket is implemented), as I have no desire to ever do a gear grind in MMO PvP again. PvP here is good only to gear up you and your companions at levels 20 and 40, and gain a bit of bonus xp on the way up. But if I ever did have the desire to PvP gear grind again, I surely wouldn't pick a game that drops my FPS down by 50~66% the moment I zoned into a warzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skrill Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 What came first...the skill or the gear? People PvP for a reward....this reward is gear...this gear makes you better at PvP through being stronger than your opponent...this allows you to get more rewards...which makes you better at PvP through gear.... This will never change. Competition for competitions sake with no reward would never succeed in a MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjwho Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 What came first...the skill or the gear? People PvP for a reward....this reward is gear...this gear makes you better at PvP through being stronger than your opponent...this allows you to get more rewards...which makes you better at PvP through gear.... This will never change. Competition for competitions sake with no reward would never succeed in a MMO. I'm sorry, guild wars and in a few months GW2 just called. They said competitve pvp>gear pvp every day of the mf week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AidenPryde Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'm sorry, guild wars and in a few months GW2 just called. They said competitve pvp>gear pvp every day of the mf week. Sometimes it seems like a lot of people playing this game have no inkling that there were other MMOs besides WoW. So if WoW had it, they expect every other game they play to have it. Finally got a win tonight, but it didn't update my PvP daily. Thanks Bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjwho Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sometimes it seems like a lot of people playing this game have no inkling that there were other MMOs besides WoW. So if WoW had it, they expect every other game they play to have it. Finally got a win tonight, but it didn't update my PvP daily. Thanks Bioware. Its funny how white knights side with the company on super obvious ways to get the player base to grind their time away on meaningless chores isn't it? Whew, didn't update? that sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon- Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) What came first...the skill or the gear? People PvP for a reward....this reward is gear...this gear makes you better at PvP through being stronger than your opponent...this allows you to get more rewards...which makes you better at PvP through gear.... This will never change. Competition for competitions sake with no reward would never succeed in a MMO. The system already started with an imbalance and the dev's should have come up with something to prevent it from growing. It began with a 2:1 Sith to Republic ratio. Which lead to one side grow a disproportional amount of 50's. Eventually dominating the warzones. Since most people see gaming as extracurricular activity not a day-to-day work they stop playing if doesn't provide entertainment. Means when you're facing multiple 50's on the other-side with you being the only one and rest of your team between 10-30... Well, they find better more enjoyable things to do. I started to play PvP since I hit the fleet for the first time around ~lvl 12 December 22nd. All the other people I used to play PvP during main time (8-11pm) on my side quit PvP out of frustration. That PvP except for Huttball hasn't died completely is for the poor newcomers. Young lvl 10-25 players still with hopes and dreams. Which are soon to be shattered. Eventually they quit PvP and never come back too. Just to be replaced by an other naive level ~10 player that got to the fleet his first time and picked up the daily PvP quest. So, one side got now many lvl 50's playing PvP (mainly Huttball against their own side I may add) acquiring champion bag after bag, while the other side is virtually dead PvP wise. Consisting only of new low level players that after a few match have enough. The sad thing is once they hit 50 and may give PvP an other shot after the patch 1.1 they will facing again an imbalance. Inexperience lvl 50 with no valor or pvp gear facing a murder of lvl 50, valor 50 with purple pvp gear. What could possibly go wrong? Edited January 14, 2012 by Dragoon- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Bad players worry about expertise. You will have the gear too, the only requisite is you play pvp. You don't have to win or be good just play. I don't think that is asking much. Thee complaints always sound like pve players who don't want to compound their skill deficit with gear deficit. This is a character progression game. Playing pvp to get pvp gear is entirely reasonable. One of the biggest logic flaws is peole acting like they will be the only person without gear. It doesn't take but seconds to realize how silly that is. This is no about gear it is about excuse making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'm sorry your guild doesn't have that many 50s. But there was a WZ bug at launch that I won't explain; but basically it allowed people to get four or more times of the exp they should have gotten for completing the WZ. So there were level 50s around the two week mark. There is a guild on my server that runs around in WZs in full Battlemaster gear already. With Battlemaster Expertise you are lucky to hit them for more than 1200 on a crit as a DPS Juggernaut without full Champ Gear (I have 3 pieces of the set currently). If you'd faced them, and the other Republic guilds on my server, you'd know how much of a game changer Expertise is. I'm also sorry that you desire a special stat to set you above the rest when real PvP should be about like geared people meeting in battle and their skill determining who wins. Not what their gearscore is. So get some gear then and show us how awesome you are and demonstrate the only reason they beat you was gear. The challenge is on Gogogogo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 DAoC proved that you didn't need a PvP stat. Your argument is false. Lol wat... Daoc had like 100k players most who pvped. Pve players don't tolerate pvp players getting equal gear. Join modern day mmogs when deciding what works or does not work. Originally on the eq pvp server you could loot someone's corpse and take everything... Doesn't mean that would work today. Expertise is just another stat. It impacts combat like other stats. If they removed it but made the top tier pvp gear do 15% more damage and take 15% less would those saying it is bad be okay? Not likely... So people need to stop saying expertise is bad. It is part of the overall gear progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 If they just made it so that it took (for example!) 20 hours to get an item from PvPing and 20 hours to get an item from PvE/Crafting then all would be well and they wouldn't need a special stat. But that requires some forethought and well implemented itemization balancing which, if people raiding in PvP gear is any indication of, isn't well implemented at all. A guild on my server has done all HM FPs and is on the last boss of Eternity Vault while using PvP gear because it is easier to obtain than PvE gear. Pve players will not accept equal time investment equal gear. They think pve is harder. Realize pve is the problem. Go ask them on the general forum how they feel about equal gear for equal time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 12 WZ losses in a row facing level 50 Champ/Battlemaster Republic players... Best example of what will happen when Brackets are in without Valor caps. Why does one side only have players with full gear and the other side no players with gear? The only barrier to gear is time played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaScroll Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Dear Bioware TLDR: Expertise divides community, discourages new people from getting into PvP and bracketing or Arenas will not fix this because many players already have high end PvP gear. Normalize PvP/PvE gear - same effort for similar rewards. I was once thinking that brackets were going to be a solution... I then realized I was 110% wrong about it ... seeing how bad "expertise" was destroying every bit of fun I had. ... I also totally agree with you on your entire post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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