In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[steezi]

Elitism is a problem with a person, not a tool. Meters and logs are tools, and very useful ones at that. Again, tools do not cause elitism. Quit blaming meters because some people like to flaunt their e-peen

 

+1. Tools in which, for most, allow much more game-time and allow perfection to those of us who enjoy that sort of thing.

 

For me personally, I watch my dps go up and up, and it drives me to keep playing and keep getting better.

[ProfessorWalsh]

You must not have much raiding experience if you think that one player can constantly watch others, during a fight in which you're also working to heal/tank/dps and avoid mechanics. Any really hard boss mechanic requires attention. Obviously after months of farming something you'd have that time, but definitely not while trying to progress.

 

On the contrary... I have been doing this since the days of Ultima Online and EverQuest. I likely have a lot more experience raiding than you do. More importantly I have far more experience raiding without meters and parsers than you do.

 

What you aren't grasping is that you aren't supposed to complete content on the day it is released. You are supposed to try it several times. Suffer through wipes. This process used to take several weeks to several months before people managed to clear things.

 

Kind of like the +10 datacron in the middle of the Republic Fleet. It took players months of looking to find it. Months. In the Beta nobody I knew had any clue how to find it, and then let us not forget the Magenta Adegan Crystal which was only recently discovered.

 

As to the complaint of:

 

"I can't watch everyone at once!"

 

Of course you can't, that is what you have officers for in a guild. You have assistants to help you with things that you can't do on your own.

 

If you aren't up to snuff and aren't able to do it then it simply means you don't have the skills needed to be a raid leader in a log-free environment. There is no shame in that. People like myself, who are used to doing it, will teach you how. You need to learn to ride without the training wheels.

 

You possess all the tools you need.

 

A brain. Two eyes. Two ears.

 

Those are all you need to get the information you need.

 

You want a log. You don't, and never will, need a log.

[steezi]

On the contrary... I have been doing this since the days of Ultima Online and EverQuest. I likely have a lot more experience raiding than you do. More importantly I have far more experience raiding without meters and parsers than you do.

 

What you aren't grasping is that you aren't supposed to complete content on the day it is released. You are supposed to try it several times. Suffer through wipes. This process used to take several weeks to several months before people managed to clear things.

 

Kind of like the +10 datacron in the middle of the Republic Fleet. It took players months of looking to find it. Months. In the Beta nobody I knew had any clue how to find it, and then let us not forget the Magenta Adegan Crystal which was only recently discovered.

 

As to the complaint of:

 

"I can't watch everyone at once!"

 

Of course you can't, that is what you have officers for in a guild. You have assistants to help you with things that you can't do on your own.

 

If you aren't up to snuff and aren't able to do it then it simply means you don't have the skills needed to be a raid leader in a log-free environment. There is no shame in that. People like myself, who are used to doing it, will teach you how. You need to learn to ride without the training wheels.

 

You possess all the tools you need.

 

A brain. Two eyes. Two ears.

 

Those are all you need to get the information you need.

 

You want a log. You don't, and never will, need a log.

 

Why are you so against this tool? Why should so many people, do so much extra work because of something so easily fixed by tools created by games in the past?

 

 

 

I still do not agree with your statement. Now you are adding that officers must contribute. So how many people need to watch others? What if these officers of yours are now the ones slacking on DPS because they are having to watch a handful of others ANIMATIONS on their character. This concept is ridiculous.

 

 

I'm glad you've played MMO's for so long, I also played UO and EQ. But uhh...this doesn't make me better than you, or you better than me.

 

 

I don't think being conservative is the answer in this case, games get better and improve. I don't see why we should take a step back and reduce a games quality of FUN (the reason you game, right?).

 

 

Allow others the meters, and you can run a guild where meters are banned and not spoken about. Deal?

[Joeymtl]

How do you weed out the bad dps? Take each one to mobs and see who kills it quicker?

 

Example..4 dps in your 8man raid. They are all geared fully with Columi gear, yet you are still hitting enrage timers. Who do you get rid of? All of them? What if one of them is just slacking or doesn't know their rotation?

 

The easiest fix to this is a DPS meter to show who is slacking, and so the raid can say "Hey ____ you need to up your dps before next weeks raid, go read some rotation strats on your class and practice!"

 

 

Welcome to hardcore raiding. It seems as people want best of both worlds, meaning that you want to compete at the highest difficulty of the game, but put no time into making your dps excellent. It doesn't make sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bad logic, sir.

 

"You watch which class he's playing. You have the knowledge to know what is a good dps rotation for that class against specific mobs. And, since all abilities have player feedback from an animation, a sound, or a VFX, you can see if he's using it.

 

You also can determine with experience what is an acceptable kill time for a specific mob depending on the composition of your team. "

 

Again, the players who calls themselves hardcore and elite need tools to know who's good = lulz.

 

To be frank, I'm not against this tool. I was a huge DPS whore in Anarchy Online and I used a DPS meter. But it was simply to know if I was able to acheive perfection, not simple efficiency. I want to pierce my eyes with a fork when I read people saying that there is no way to know if someone is slacking or not without a DPS meter however.

 

I want raid leaders to require simple efficiency, not perfection. And that, you can see with your eyes. People want to have fun while raiding with people displaying acceptable skills. Not be judged for not reaching some elitist requirements.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Joeymtl

[KorrigTS]

You don't need a cellphone.

You don't need e-mail.

You don't need power steering.

 

Sure, we don't need them. People survived a year or two without them IIRC. Standards change and things become expected for a reason. They make life more pleasant.

 

Why make things difficult for the sake of making them difficult? Why don't I just play with only my index fingers on both hands for SUPER HARDMODE?

 

It's 2012. Combat logs have been standard for years. The 'but...but....but we dont need them!' argument is worn out and unrealistic.

Edited January 16, 2012 by KorrigTS

[skitzopath]

I find it funny that alot of the same people in theese forums who said "I want logs so Ican see what I am doing, and improve MY OWN PERSONAL DPS." Are now crying about the fact that now that we are getting combat logs, that it is only their own combat logs that they will get to see.

 

No I don't wanna see how much dps / hps / tps / ffs you are doing. I don't care how much I am doing.

 

All I care about is that I am having a good time with my friends and that is that. If the boss dies GG who cares who did the most dps. If the boss dosent die, well try to find out why the boss didnt die, adjust strategey, and try again.

 

People want to make a game into a 2nd job. for me that sucks the fun right out of it.

 

You got your logs, be happy.

[KorrigTS]

I find it funny that alot of the same people in theese forums who said "I want logs so Ican see what I am doing, and improve MY OWN PERSONAL DPS." Are now crying about the fact that now that we are getting combat logs, that it is only their own combat logs that they will get to see.

 

No I don't wanna see how much dps / hps / tps / ffs you are doing. I don't care how much I am doing.

 

All I care about is that I am having a good time with my friends and that is that. If the boss dies GG who cares who did the most dps. If the boss dosent die, well try to find out why the boss didnt die, adjust strategey, and try again.

 

People want to make a game into a 2nd job. for me that sucks the fun right out of it.

 

You got your logs, be happy.

 

Skitzopath, this is perfectly fine. Nobody is trying to take that from you. There are many people that share your same view.

 

However, there are people that play for a different reason (progression). A progression raid wanting these to provide insight on boss encounters does not prevent you from playing how you play with your friends.

[skitzopath]

Skitzopath, this is perfectly fine. Nobody is trying to take that from you. There are many people that share your same view.

 

However, there are people that play for a different reason (progression). A progression raid wanting these to provide insight on boss encounters does not prevent you from playing how you play with your friends.

 

I cant speak for you, but I have done progression raiding. It's one of the main reason I play mmo's. Nothing is more fun than when a group of friends can come together and pull off a raid boss kill.

 

If you boil down progression raiding into a flowchart saying that our healers are at x HPS tanks are doing y TPS and our deeps are doing z DPS, so adding x+y+z = dead boss, you wind up with a game that is better played with a calculator.

 

You can have progression raiding without threat meters dps meters and deadly boss mods. I hate WoW for allowing theese things in to this genre.

 

Out of all the mmo games in the world I can name 2 that have DPS meters, and only 1 that has a threat meter. Saying that this is the norm is WRONG. It is the norm for World of Warcraft. And even over there it is a 3rd party addon.

 

You are more than welcome to your opinion, but when someone gives you a hamburger you should thank them instead of complaining that you wanted mac and cheese.

 

Logs, and meters are not by any means nesescary to be competive.

[KorrigTS]

I don't see how having the capability to crunch numbers (however, your usage suggestion is not how I use logs btw) makes it a game better played on a calculator. You still have to do the same amount of playing with or without logs. You just have a better measuring stick with them.

 

I don't really follow your food analogy. A better suited analogy is more along the lines of:

I purchase a new vehicle (MMO) and I expect it to have a speedometer (log). I don't need the speedometer (log) to operate (play) the vehicle (MMO), and I can probably use my better judgement on approximate speed (performance). But wouldn't it just be so much more pleasant to have it?

 

And I'm not wanting the log/meter to flaunt the e-peen. I'm wanting it to have more information on why we wiped. Who didn't use CDs at the right time? Who didn't target the correct mob when they should be? Who wasn't cleansing the nasty dot? Who was taking too much damage from standing in fire? This isn't some plea so that 'elitists' can look down upon anyone doing 10 dps less...

[Morcova]

Right click, Inspect player, Look in right spot, Profit.

In case of DPS it's exceptionally easy to find out.

 

That doesn't tell you which player isn't doing the right dps. You assume that a player can't be well geared and underdpsing. Since it's exeptionally easy to find out which of your dps are underdpsing please tell me.

[Morcova]

You watch which class he's playing. You have the knowledge to know what is a good dps rotation for that class against specific mobs. And, since all abilities have player feedback from an animation, a sound, or a VFX, you can see if he's using it.

None of which tells you if he's got all of his abilities up to date. And none of which tells you how much damage he's actually putting out. Hell with this 2002 UI you can't even tell what he's targetting.

[Voidence]

It is, but it became a tool for devs to reintroduce challenge after damage meters led to perfected specs and rotations in, "that other game".

 

When the original "enrage timer" was set for DPS efficiency of 75% of maximum but players with damage meters are pumping out 92% of maximum efficiency - the encounters tend to feel easy - thus, enrage timers are tightened to require that 92% baseline on future encounters.

 

At that point - everyone has to use damage meters to get the content down without overgearing it.

 

This... And after all this happens.... Then you start getting nerfs because only 2% of the population can down the raid/operation. Then all the elite/hardcores cry because the casuals are getting the game nerfed. Mark my words(better yet I will copy this and paste it in a year) It will happen.

 

This is a story driven/casual MMO, Dont ruin this game because you idiots wanna stroke your damn E-peen. And yes thats what it WILL be used for more then not.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Voidence

[KorrigTS]

Using it to stroke the E-peen is misuse of the tool. Does not further the argument for why it shouldn't be in for people to use correctly

[Chosenxeno]

This... And after all this happens.... Then you start getting nerfs because only 2% of the population can down the raid/operation. Then all the elite/hardcores cry because the casuals are getting the game nerfed. Mark my words(better yet I will copy this and paste it in a year) It will happen.

 

This is a story driven/casual MMO, Dont ruin this game because you idiots wanna stroke your damn E-peen. And yes thats what it WILL be used for more then not.

 

Let's play spot the E-Peen Stroking in my post:

 

(I figured what the hey 1 more time for kicks)

 

Sigh I was hoping to retire this thing:

 

I'm not a DPSers. I Heal and i've pretty much been in here fighting for a meter.

 

As a healer I am a blame target with or without a Parser. A Parser/ Meter would lessen the chances of people automatically assuming" i'm not doing my job" after multiple wipes now that you can better see:

 

Who died standing in what.

 

Who continued to DPS when they should have been interrupting.

Who's not Dispelling that mark of doom.

Who's AFK for burrito and not attacking.

 

 

Why is it OK for my role Healer to be instantly blamed when things go bad when we have could have proof that it's not us?

 

How in the world is not knowing the above better for any of us?

 

Why do you assume that only DPSing meter whores want this?

 

This thing is just as important for lessening the amount of blame for tanks and healers, as it is for monitoring Damage output.

 

 

You cannot tell me that the 4 things in italics isn't relevant to pugs AND raids or that they scream of Elitism nor can you give me logical answers for what is bold. I am not being mean when I say this( For Mods: I admit I was kinda earlier and yea you got me lol), but you have no real Argument if you are against.

 

The fact that I am a healer alone kills the Epeener Argument.

"Guess who sucks" is not a successful raid model.

 

Doing the 4 things in italics have gotten more people removed than output in a PuG.

 

Output is only a factor when everything else seems to be going right.

 

You have the choice of not joining a Guild that Requires you to install addons, parsers ect.

 

I could go on and on and on:cool:

 

INB4 your Argument switches:D

Edited January 17, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[OZGOD]

For those of you who think that a combat log or any type of measure that provides transparency of performance, whether it is your own or that of others, think of it this way. Imagine if all the gear in this game did not have stat bonuses or tooltips that indicated if one was better than the other. Imagine they were just...blank.

 

Imagine having to try each drop you found and then get into combat to see which one is helping you "kill stuff quicker". Eventually you will figure it out, or you will make do with an underoptimised set because you might still be killing things with lesser gear.

 

It's funny. With gear and other items, we want to know what value each is providing to our character, but when it comes to players, somehow it's not acceptable to try and determine the value they are bringing to a raid or group. Because maybe some people's feelings might be hurt by what the meters reveal. Keep in mind that the PLAYER is in total control of what his or her meter displays, because it's his or her own performance that is being measured.

 

And a meter doesn't tell the whole story of someone's value - but it is an input that can be used in evaluation, along with other things, like whether the person stood in fire (again, a meter can tell you that by looking at Damage Taken, which is in fact probably the most important measure that most raid leads will use a meter to review, far more than DPS or HPS or whatever). Or how many times someone interrupted/dispelled/etc, which is an indication that they are able to execute a strategy properly.

 

Right now it doesn't matter because all the content is easy - the fights are pretty much tank and spank. Once they get harder, and groups start failing more, and hitting enrage timers, it will be a different story.

Edited January 17, 2012 by OZGOD

[Chosenxeno]

For those of you who think that a combat log or any type of measure that provides transparency of performance, whether it is your own or that of others, think of it this way. Imagine if all the gear in this game did not have stat bonuses or tooltips that indicated if one was better than the other. Imagine they were just...blank.

 

Imagine having to try each drop you found and then get into combat to see which one is helping you "kill stuff quicker". Eventually you will figure it out, or you will make do with an underoptimised set because you might still be killing things with lesser gear.

 

It's funny. With gear and other items, we want to know what value each is providing to our character, but when it comes to players, somehow it's not acceptable to try and determine the value they are bringing to a raid or group. Because maybe some people's feelings might be hurt by what the meters reveal. Keep in mind that the PLAYER is in total control of what his or her meter displays, because it's his or her own performance that is being measured.

 

And a meter doesn't tell the whole story of someone's value - but it is an input that can be used in evaluation, along with other things, like whether the person stood in fire (again, a meter can tell you that by looking at Damage Taken, which is in fact probably the most important measure that most raid leads will use a meter to review, far more than DPS or HPS or whatever). Or how many times someone interrupted/dispelled/etc, which is an indication that they are able to execute a strategy properly.

 

Right now it doesn't matter because all the content is easy - the fights are pretty much tank and spank. Once they get harder, and groups start failing more, and hitting enrage timers, it will be a different story.

 

This is excellent. Unfortunately the Grumpy Old Men of EQ, and other Archaic cumbersome garbage would find trying on every piece of gear and testing it appealing.

 

They've been told this by 5000 people. Apparently they don't want people Epeening their dispels and interrupt number. Dispelling and interrupting also leads to Elitism.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Joeymtl]

None of which tells you if he's got all of his abilities up to date. And none of which tells you how much damage he's actually putting out. Hell with this 2002 UI you can't even tell what he's targetting.

 

That's the thing, you don't need to know how much damage he's doing, all you need to know if he's efficient enough by not slacking.

 

Ultimatly, you want to kill something. All you need is for it to be dead. And if you need a tool to know what went wrong if you wiped, play more or be more aware.

 

The only real need for metrics is for self improvement, and you're going to get that.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Joeymtl

[KorrigTS]

During hectic fights you cannot watch everyone to see what the cause of failure was. Combat logs are for examining after the fact. And no, they don't just serve as self-evaluation tools...

[Chosenxeno]

During hectic fights you cannot watch everyone to see what the cause of failure was. Combat logs are for examining after the fact. And no, they don't just serve as self-evaluation tools...

 

I'd love to know what slow-paced garbage dump game he came from where this is possible....O wait I know lol:D

[Joeymtl]

I'd love to know what slow-paced garbage dump game he came from where this is possible....O wait I know lol:D

 

I actually pvp'ed in AO, where you can splat people about twice as fast as in wow, and have to react twice as fast.. nice try

 

We both play swtor though, I thought we were talking about swtor here, I must be in the wrong forums. I also suggest you act a bit more mature when arguing online. It helps giving the points you want to make credibility.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Joeymtl

[Joeymtl]

During hectic fights you cannot watch everyone to see what the cause of failure was. Combat logs are for examining after the fact. And no, they don't just serve as self-evaluation tools...

 

Well with the content we have now, my opinion differs on that. It could change if they introduced harder raids in the future though.

[Chosenxeno]

Well with the content we have now, my opinion differs on that. It could change if they introduced harder raids in the future though.

 

And yet you continue.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Morcova]

That's the thing, you don't need to know how much damage he's doing, all you need to know if he's efficient enough by not slacking.

 

Ultimatly, you want to kill something. All you need is for it to be dead.

 

The only real need for metrics is for self improvement, and you're going to get that.

 

Riiight... I guess that's the difference between you and me. When I'm playing I want the mobs I'm fighting to die asap so that we can continue, given your fear of data you might kill the mob.. you might not. And you'll take longer than my group.

 

 

And if you need a tool to know what went wrong if you wiped, play more or be more aware.

 

Either you've never actually raided or you've never been a raid leader if you think you can watch what 16 other players are doing all at the same time all the while doing your own job flawlessly.

 

Unless your botting.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Morcova

[Joeymtl]

And yet you continue.

 

Well then request it when they do I won't argue then.

 

Riiight... I guess that's the difference between you and me. When I'm playing I want the mobs I'm fighting to die asap so that we can continue, given your fear of data you might kill the mob.. you might not. And you'll take longer than my group.

 

 

 

 

Either you've never actually raided or you've never been a raid leader if you think you can watch what 16 other players are doing all at the same time all the while doing your own job flawlessly.

 

Unless your botting.

 

I never once said I feared data. I simply laugh at people saying that the tool is essential to spot leechers in the current content. I've also been raid leader and raided 5 years. I also don't bot. You're pretty presumptuous.

 

Stop saying that something is impossible if you can't do it. Others can.

 

I can however understand if you want to kill mobs in 4 minutes instead of 5 minutes. If you have such short patience, I can't change you.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Joeymtl

[Mynden]

Well then request it when they do I won't argue then.

 

 

 

I never once said I feared data. I simply laugh at people saying that the tool is essential to spot leechers in the current content. I've also been raid leader and raided 5 years. I also don't bot. You're pretty presumptuous.

 

Stop saying that something is impossible if you can't do it. Others can.

 

I can however understand if you want to kill mobs in 4 minutes instead of 5 minutes. If you have such short patience, I can't change you.

 

and if the enrage timer is 4 minutes, you may not be killing them at all.