In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Chosenxeno]

The only case you have made is your are too lazy to play the game so you need help. Most people don't need parsers. Your ridiculous and delusional attitude is one reason parsers should not be used. I am confident in any given situation you could not explain the math used to judge what is good or not good.

 

If you have to guess who sucks without a parser the answer is easy, you suck. If you can't do raids without handholding you have not shown you are capable of doing the content.

 

Instead of flailing your arms here trying to distract people from the facts just admit parsers make the game easier and remove major social component from the game. People who struggle with cooperative social interaction and paying attention want a parser crutch. I am telling you if you pay attention and work on your social skills you don't need a parser.

 

You clearly have your own issues and the last thing you need to be doing is worrying what other people are doing. If you werent running around pointing fingers at people you would not have others intentionally trying to make you fail.

 

Learn the game, play the game, foster teamwork and cooperation and you will do fine

 

Still waiting on you to give me a solid Argument for the Against beyond"Omg i iz so leet I don't needz dem":cool: No matter what the size of your paragraph that's all your argument amounts too let's be honest:)

 

As far as fact you totally got me there with my great big "Healers are the 1st to get blamed" Lie.

 

I also made up why 99% of people are removed from Raid groups and PuGs*more eye rolling*

 

It makes perfect since for 1 role to forcibly accept 99% of the blame and not be able to have any concrete proof to the contrary. This totally makes me wanna Raid even more as a healer*Sarcasm with a smirk*

 

If people with struggling with "social interaction" are the only one who wants parser then my does the phrase "my guild" in "Raids" doesn't this imply that they are quite social?

 

You haven't shown why what was in italics is a lie or given logical answers for what's in bold. All you have provided was attacks and no real Arguments for the Against.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Chosenxeno
laughing so hard

[Maltuvion]

How is it fair that your affecting MY fun by forcing an app that groups MY PERSONAL INFO into your hands. You forcing this APP on my hands. This game started without recount or add on's and it will live on that way. Now YOU know your DPS. And I KNOW mine.

 

You just can't scream at people in raid for low numbers. I don't get it, you got YOUR PERSONAL DPS. Now you want MY INFORMATION. Once you pay my sub you can.

 

This is beyond stupid. I'm guessing being part of a group and a community isn't your strong suit nor something you're familiar with. Posts such as these are really, really sad.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Still waiting on you to give me a solid Argument for the Against beyond"Omg i iz so leet I don't needz dem":cool: No matter what the size of your paragraph that's all your argument amounts too let's be honest:)

 

Here is the argument you have been looking for:

 

While it is possible for parsers and open combat logs (logs that cover other players other than just yourself) to be a useful tool to help improve game play performance they also can serve as hindrances to both other players and game designers.

 

They can hinder other players by creating what I called, when I was a designer, as the "False Standard" among players. This "false standard" is effectively a benchmark created, usually by Hardcore gamers which judges anything lower than optimal as being unusable. This leads to people who chose to spec a line for fun, but which may be 7% less effective than another available line being left out of game content because elitists can show a statistical representation showing them that they cannot possibly be as good as a line they did not choose. Thus the player is referred to as "Bad" and is told, quite often to re-roll or re-spec if they wish to participate.

 

Now, as to why this is a "false standard" is very simple. Encounters are not designed in such a way that something beyond 10% won't matter. Frankly these "false standards" serve to trivialize content as everyone has the most efficient and effective build as dictated by the raid leader/hard core community.

 

This trivializing of content is a hindrance to designers because once such things proliferate enough through the player based and the game environment becomes saturated with these "optimized build" characters the designer has to design to that "false standard" which causes the "false standard" to become the "true standard" of the game. This ties the hands of the designer. This is why some mods, such as WoW's "Mighty Boss Mod" made many designers highly annoyed.

 

The hard content ceases to be hard because the boss will be fully analyzed and not only will effective strategies be developed (Note: In TOR we have already developed effective strategies for bosses. Proving that a log is unneeded.) but these effective strategies will become "guaranteed win statistics" because the players have, what in old school tabletop would be referred to has, illogical and unrealistic knowledge of the monster manual.

 

Such separation leads to the creation of content that casual gamers cannot complete. Normally games at this stage split the content into "normal" and "hard" content. Such classifications are actually quite condescending to players of the appropriate level but who don't want to be forced into a box.

 

The primary argument for an open log are simple:

 

1. They wish to optimize themselves.

 

This argument is debunked, you don't need an open log, you don't even need a log, to accomplish that. A private log, or simply some hard work, will accomplish that.

 

2. They don't wish to be blamed.

 

This is a problem that has less to do with a log and more to do with who you run with.

 

3. They want to judge others.

 

You don't have the right to do that.

 

4. They want to find out why they cannot defeat content.

 

Try new things. You don't need a cheat book. If you don't want to lose and have to live through wipes go play another game.

[Chosenxeno]

Here is the argument you have been looking for:

 

While it is possible for parsers and open combat logs (logs that cover other players other than just yourself) to be a useful tool to help improve game play performance they also can serve as hindrances to both other players and game designers.

 

They can hinder other players by creating what I called, when I was a designer, as the "False Standard" among players. This "false standard" is effectively a benchmark created, usually by Hardcore gamers which judges anything lower than optimal as being unusable. This leads to people who chose to spec a line for fun, but which may be 7% less effective than another available line being left out of game content because elitists can show a statistical representation showing them that they cannot possibly be as good as a line they did not choose. Thus the player is referred to as "Bad" and is told, quite often to re-roll or re-spec if they wish to participate.

 

Now, as to why this is a "false standard" is very simple. Encounters are not designed in such a way that something beyond 10% won't matter. Frankly these "false standards" serve to trivialize content as everyone has the most efficient and effective build as dictated by the raid leader/hard core community.

 

This trivializing of content is a hindrance to designers because once such things proliferate enough through the player based and the game environment becomes saturated with these "optimized build" characters the designer has to design to that "false standard" which causes the "false standard" to become the "true standard" of the game. This ties the hands of the designer. This is why some mods, such as WoW's "Mighty Boss Mod" made many designers highly annoyed.

 

The hard content ceases to be hard because the boss will be fully analyzed and not only will effective strategies be developed (Note: In TOR we have already developed effective strategies for bosses. Proving that a log is unneeded.) but these effective strategies will become "guaranteed win statistics" because the players have, what in old school tabletop would be referred to has, illogical and unrealistic knowledge of the monster manual.

 

Such separation leads to the creation of content that casual gamers cannot complete. Normally games at this stage split the content into "normal" and "hard" content. Such classifications are actually quite condescending to players of the appropriate level but who don't want to be forced into a box.

 

The primary argument for an open log are simple:

 

1. They wish to optimize themselves.

 

This argument is debunked, you don't need an open log, you don't even need a log, to accomplish that. A private log, or simply some hard work, will accomplish that.

 

2. They don't wish to be blamed.

 

This is a problem that has less to do with a log and more to do with who you run with.

 

3. They want to judge others.

 

You don't have the right to do that.

 

4. They want to find out why they cannot defeat content.

 

Try new things. You don't need a cheat book. If you don't want to lose and have to live through wipes go play another game.

 

How is it a "false standard" when multiple games that have them are more succesful than the games that don't. Even the Genre biggest failure of all time Vanguard has a meter/parsers.

 

The option to not join guilds that will do this is and has always been there.

 

In general a Parser has almost nothing to do with the difficulty of an encounter or improving a player. All they do is streamline information in the combat log.

 

The internet will provide more than any Addon for either. This alone is almost a reason why it might as well be in the game. We are going to find out anyway. The only solution is not to have inspect or put in an Armory or you will be asked to play the "Optimal Spec". What's wrong with being asked by your guild to do what's best for the team? I never understood this one.

 

Reading blogs like:Resto4Life, TreebarkJacket and Plusheal have done more to improve my play than these "boogeymen" Addons.

 

 

1. What about for Theorycrafting? I used to regem all the time to test out theories found on the site above.

 

2. I raided for 6 years in WOW 5 in the same guild and I cannot tell you how many times I heard"What's going on healers". I would then link the healing done and say "What do you mean we are all well above "X" for hps". Concrete proof that snuffed out any potential drama. You gotta love it:)

 

3. None of what I listed was "Judging" it was about having the information to see what is holding us back. Judging is:"LOL you are at the bottom you suck!" That's what people who assume everything is about output do. The stuff I listed is more than likely to have you removed than output.

 

4. I'm pretty sure that there is no 1 way to kill any boss in the History of MMOs because not everyone has the exact same makeup for their raid. The reality is you are more too have that 1 important utility or buffer class and build from there.

 

Parsers show you the information. They do not magically enhance your reaction and awareness.

 

Who said anything about DBM? I can read a cast Bar quite well.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Stunstun]

Just pointing this out there but once people know what the best dps specs/rotations/priorities are it wont be too hard to spend 2 minutes in a dungeon/raid watching the abilities someone else is doing or how they are playing to tell if they are know what they are doing or not. Saying you dont want dps meters because you dont want people to tell you you are bad is not going to help.

 

I agree that the level of elitism that can come with recount type addons can be too much, but then the people that dont want those type of addons because it keeps them out of doing high level content need to realize that you dont belong in the high level content. If 8 people performing the same as you are can't down encounters then you shouldn't be there.

 

Basically if you don't want recount and you want to do easy content and not have people yell at you for sucking, i sympathize with you, but if you want to do content meant for people maximizing their class then i have no sympathy for you.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Stunstun

[DigitalShield]

Best way to include a combat long IMO.

The last thing I want is some 13 year old complaining how according to his combat log my DPS is not up to scratch.

The only thing that matters to me in operations and flashpoints is that we can get it done.

[ProfessorWalsh]

How is it a "false standard" when multiple games that have them are more succesful than the games that don't. Even the Genre biggest failure of all time Vanguard has a meter/parsers.

 

Games that are successful have had them.

Games that are not successful have had them.

 

This does not indicate that the logs are what makes the game successful or not. Also it isn't the log that makes the "False Standard" it is the players who do that when they become elitist about them.

 

The option to not join guilds that will do this is and has always been there.

 

No it hasn't. There have been multiple MMORPGs that didn't have logs.

 

In general a Parser has almost nothing to do with the difficulty of an encounter or improving a player. All they do is streamline information in the combat log.

 

Which in turn makes reviewing a fight much easier. Which in turn allows an encounter to be "figured out" easier. Which in turn makes completing it in future runs easier. Thus modifying the difficulty of the encounter.

 

The internet will provide more than any Addon for either. This alone is almost a reason why it might as well be in the game. We are going to find out anyway. The only solution is not to have inspect or put in an Armory or you will be asked to play the "Optimal Spec". What's wrong with being asked by your guild to do what's best for the team? I never understood this one.

 

What is wrong is simple. This is a game. We play it to have fun. If it is not possible to complete the content with a specific build, IE, if it is that broken, then I can see it. Though then it becomes a problem for the devs.

 

If the content can be completed, even if it is slightly harder, then the guild, the team, should not infringe on a person's individuality.

 

Reading blogs like:Resto4Life, TreebarkJacket and Plusheal have done more to improve my play than these "boogeymen" Addons.

 

This is actually more of an argument against logs. You have just confirmed that you don't need add ons and logs to improve your game play.

 

1. What about for Theorycrafting? I used to regem all the time to test out theories found on the site above.

 

You can theorycraft without a log. It simply requires more work.

 

2. I raided for 6 years in WOW 5 in the same guild and I cannot tell you how many times I heard"What's going on healers". I would then link the healing done and say "What do you mean we are all well above "X" for hps". Concrete proof that snuffed out any potential drama. You gotta love it:)

 

WoW was not the first MMO nor is it even a good one in my opinion. I raided for years in EQ and DAoC. We didn't have meters, add ons, and parsers were not widely used. We had no drama. Everyone understood that everyone else was trying and that was enough.

 

The problem you are outlining, the "Drama" is a problem with the players, not the logs. Players "acting like adults" will fix most of that drama as well.

 

3. None of what I listed was "Judging" it was about having the information to see what is holding us back. Judging is:"LOL you are at the bottom you suck!" That's what people who assume everything is about output do. The stuff I listed is more than likely to have you removed than output.

 

This is still about judging. You are talking about using this as a tool to remove people.

 

4. I'm pretty sure that there is no 1 way to kill any boss in the History of MMOs because not everyone has the exact same makeup for their raid. The reality is you are more too have that 1 important utility or buffer class and build from there.

 

This statement has nothing to do with logs and so I don't know why you are bringing it up. The fact is that add ons significantly changed how designers made encounters and it limited them in how they wanted to make them by forcing them to cater to the optimization crowd.

 

Parsers show you the information. They do not magically enhance your reaction and awareness.

 

Actually they do magically enhance your awareness. If they did not then you wouldn't need a parser to tell you how much healing your party was doing or which abilities they were using. Awareness means that you can tell what your people are doing at any given point.

 

A parser tells you how much damage someone did. Meaning you don't have to pay attention.

 

A parser tells you how much healing someone did. Meaning you don't have to pay attention to it.

 

A parser tells you how long into a fight it was when the boss enraged. Meaning you don't have to try to count it off, you have the facts handed to you.

 

All of that means you need less combat awareness with logs than without.

 

Try living in a world without logs for a few months, then see if you don't adapt properly before you beg for one.

[Baaddare]

Games that are successful have had them.

Games that are not successful have had them.

.

 

yes but there are also games that are and or were successful that did not have them. Just wanted to add that in as I agree with everything you said.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Baaddare

[Icecrypt]

I think its wierd because after WZ when you get that window you can see your dps, damage done, healing done etc etc. Its just like a recount over a fight. Dont understand why you cant have one of those after every boss fight or something. Obviously they already have measurement tools for your dmg, dps and healing etc. They just wont give it to us.

[jettemakaron]

Best way to include a combat long IMO.

The last thing I want is some 13 year old complaining how according to his combat log my DPS is not up to scratch.

The only thing that matters to me in operations and flashpoints is that we can get it done.

 

The problem isent when u get the things done, its when u fail to get things done and noone know why, if it is because your dps is to low and that 13 years old have to suffer because of it.

 

So give us dps logs so we get things done and can help people that need some help on their dps rotation/healing/tanking/targeting/moving or what else there is that makes us fail.

[Rasstavad]

Best way to include a combat long IMO.

The last thing I want is some 13 year old complaining how according to his combat log my DPS is not up to scratch.

The only thing that matters to me in operations and flashpoints is that we can get it done.

 

If you are getting outdps'd by a 13yo .... lol

 

Take some time to research your class, gear properly and learn to use the apporpriate CD's at the appropriate times.

 

PvE is not about "uber FPS reaction speed and precision"... it's more about who knows more about their class, gear, and fight mechanics.

 

Since gear in TOR is handed out for free that shouldn't be an issue... if some random 13yo is doing twice your dps and calls you out for it - the issue is YOU.

[Chosenxeno]

Games that are successful have had them.

Games that are not successful have had them.

 

This does not indicate that the logs are what makes the game successful or not. Also it isn't the log that makes the "False Standard" it is the players who do that when they become elitist about them.

 

 

 

No it hasn't. There have been multiple MMORPGs that didn't have logs.

 

 

 

Which in turn makes reviewing a fight much easier. Which in turn allows an encounter to be "figured out" easier. Which in turn makes completing it in future runs easier. Thus modifying the difficulty of the encounter.

 

 

 

What is wrong is simple. This is a game. We play it to have fun. If it is not possible to complete the content with a specific build, IE, if it is that broken, then I can see it. Though then it becomes a problem for the devs.

 

If the content can be completed, even if it is slightly harder, then the guild, the team, should not infringe on a person's individuality.

 

 

 

This is actually more of an argument against logs. You have just confirmed that you don't need add ons and logs to improve your game play.

 

 

 

You can theorycraft without a log. It simply requires more work.

 

 

 

WoW was not the first MMO nor is it even a good one in my opinion. I raided for years in EQ and DAoC. We didn't have meters, add ons, and parsers were not widely used. We had no drama. Everyone understood that everyone else was trying and that was enough.

 

The problem you are outlining, the "Drama" is a problem with the players, not the logs. Players "acting like adults" will fix most of that drama as well.

 

 

 

This is still about judging. You are talking about using this as a tool to remove people.

 

 

 

This statement has nothing to do with logs and so I don't know why you are bringing it up. The fact is that add ons significantly changed how designers made encounters and it limited them in how they wanted to make them by forcing them to cater to the optimization crowd.

 

 

 

Actually they do magically enhance your awareness. If they did not then you wouldn't need a parser to tell you how much healing your party was doing or which abilities they were using. Awareness means that you can tell what your people are doing at any given point.

 

A parser tells you how much damage someone did. Meaning you don't have to pay attention.

 

A parser tells you how much healing someone did. Meaning you don't have to pay attention to it.

 

A parser tells you how long into a fight it was when the boss enraged. Meaning you don't have to try to count it off, you have the facts handed to you.

 

All of that means you need less combat awareness with logs than without.

 

Try living in a world without logs for a few months, then see if you don't adapt properly before you beg for one.

 

They have become THE STANDARD if games that have failed and have not both have them. So I proved your argument that it's a "False Standard" Wrong. Did I mention that even a Free To Play like "Runes of Magic has this STANDARD Feature. Don't twist my words to suit you, and then argue as if, you've proved something you haven't when, it's clear the opposite of what you said has been proven. You did fool that 1 guy quoting you though.People demanded Airbags too that's why they have become STANDARD things become A STANDARD based on success rate.(you probably hate Airbags because they make surviving a car accident "less challenging" in your opinion).

 

2 cars same price same features except 1 has Airbags. Which one is more likely to sell? Should the people not buy the one with the Airbag? If they do are they "care-bears" and "crutch user" drivers? I could actually wrap this debate up with that alone but i'll bite;)

 

The minute you said DaOC and EQ(as if, I needed him to tell me this *guffaws*) you lost a lot of cred with me because those people are usually against anything that would make the game more accessible to anyone who is not some sort of Masochist.They think that somehow because they came from Cumbersome garbage with a Timesinkers Only model that they are better players than us.

 

No. The Fact that you can go on the Internet and it's more likely to improve you than these magical ADDONs and parsers, did more to prove your nonsense about them being behind improving a player(or the way you put it making it ez mode) is a lie. Reading does more than a parser. So if that's gonna make it easier for me than why can't I have a inferior tool that we both seem to believe is more for fun?(you agreed to my point about theorycrafting)You are basically saying that it's inferior to reading the internet, but it makes the game easier---> <---actual face. Maybe we shouldn't include the internet in the game lol:rolleyes:

 

Things a Masochist would say: "You can theorycraft without a log. It simply requires more work."Why does something as trivial as Theorycrafting need to be "work"? lol:rolleyes:

 

 

You took my "Judging" to the extreme end of it. Yes you should get removed if this is the 20th time you've stood in stuff you shouldn't. Heck you should willingly leave.

 

I am starting to believe you people when you say you've never used a parser since you seem to believe there's some guys standing there mid fight watching it. It's all post fight data.I actually laughed when you said "A parser tells you how much damage someone did. Meaning you don't have to pay attention. A parser tells you how much healing someone did. Meaning you don't have to pay attention to it."

This is beyond ignorant. It's actually closer to sad.

 

You play for fun. The majority plays for fun. Not having this would make the game a lot less fun since they are now for a lot of people because they are A STANDARD(and clearly viewed by Developers as such). Not having a combat log and parser in 2012 is an archaic design philosophy.

 

When I stopped playing in August: My Guilds Main Tank was 38yrs our, GM was 38yrs, Our Original Guild OT was 42. I would say the average age of our guild as a whole was maybe 28.

Drama as a whole will happen. Drama over Boss kill is good. Drama over loot is bad. We avoided the latter. We were closer to a family than a guild. I said I was there for 5 years some were there for 6-7 years. Do not attack my family as children. Please show some respect.

 

Terms like "beg" are an attack. Which means you lose. Yet another EQ/DaoC/Vanilla WOW type fighting against anything that screams accessibility. Lemme guess you also hate Dungeon Finders and Macros too right?

 

I have unmasked yet another. Sorry we don't want a game built for 10 people.

 

 

P.S. If you can't quote my posts in their entirely as I have written them than you are attempting to deceive just as you attempted to do above.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Jylian]

So bads can still hide the fact that they're bads lol.

[ProfessorWalsh]

They have become THE STANDARD if games that have failed and have not both have them. So I proved your argument that it's a "False Standard" Wrong. Did I mention that even a Free To Play like "Runes of Magic has this STANDARD Feature. Don't twist my words to suit you, and then argue as if, you've proved something you haven't when, it's clear the opposite of what you said has been proven. You did fool that 1 guy quoting you though.People demanded Airbags too that's why they have become STANDARD things become A STANDARD based on success rate.(you probably hate Airbags because they make surviving a car accident "less challenging" in your opinion).

 

Nice try.

 

No.

 

The logs are not the standard. The "false standard" isn't the log either.

 

The "false standard" is the optimized character build as dictated by a log.

 

You simply don't like the fact that BioWare isn't giving you a persecution tool. Personal logs are more than enough. You do not need logs. With any luck you will never get them.

[Vervain_CC]

 

 

You simply don't like the fact that BioWare isn't giving you a persecution tool.

 

I don't see how you think they are not. Even if the tool they do release is only viewable to you, the elitest guilds will require you to submit a screenshot or upload your logs to verify your performance. This is just proof that is not necessarily the tool the breeds elitism, but the players themselves. Of course, you will not have to participate in a guild that requires such things, but neither would you be required to participate in a guild abusing actual parsers and recount like addons.

 

Arguing whether or not these types of tools will injure SW:TOR is a moot point, as SOME form of tool is obviously coming.

 

And to chosenxeno, obviously I am on your side of the arguement, however; you really need to stop claiming you've "won" anything after every single post. It makes you sound like a total raving tool.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Vervain_CC

[Chosenxeno]

Nice try.

 

No.

 

The logs are not the standard. The "false standard" isn't the log either.

 

The "false standard" is the optimized character build as dictated by a log.

 

You simply don't like the fact that BioWare isn't giving you a persecution tool. Personal logs are more than enough. You do not need logs. With any luck you will never get them.

 

Face it you've been unmasked as a EQ/Vanilla WOW masochist and that's that. More than enough feel like they do need them. Your Paragraphs have gotten noticeably smaller btw.

 

The Fact is High Population(emphasis on high) Subscription based MMORPGS have logs/parsers or Allow for the community to make them, and when people come from them to another game they expect them to be there. The Population views them as a Standard and they should be treated as such.

 

Your Niche games didn't have them and that's why they are Niche. A lot has changed while you've been playing EQ for the last 10 years.

 

My original post did not Allude to any form of persecution. It simply pointed out:

 

A) Output is at the back end of why people get removed from groups/raid.

 

B) They do more than show output.

 

You on the other hand attack people with your very thinly veiled comments alluding to people that want a functional Parser/meter as being "bad players".

 

As far as your "Optimized Builds being a False Standard" if the data suggests that more people with "X" spec are killing "X" boss than, for that particular encounter that spec will be the standard.

 

There's no point in even commenting on Specs. The internet exists. If 1 spec has proven to be more efficient or effective for a fight than others you will be asked by your guild to play that Spec. Your Argument is moot. Again I asked what's wrong with getting ask to do what's best for the team? The goal is to kill the boss isn't it? I'd like to think the people in my guild are intelligent enough to know that this is why we raid.

 

Anyone who as ever raided has been asked to perform tasks that they'd rather not do. Raiding is all about the team though and you do what's best for the team. This includes everything from letting the Main Tank gear up first to playing the "Optimal Spec".

 

Baa Baa Black sheep have you any wool? Absolutely not.

 

As for all of your Addons/Parsers = EZ Mode nonsense.

 

I checked the progression numbers in "Another Game that's pretty popular" for the final instance and in almost 2 months time only 30 Guilds have been able to kill the final boss vs 4000 that have killed the 1st boss. The tier before that only 2k of 50k were able to clear that instance. They are not The "I win" buttons you make them out to be.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Morcova]

You simply don't like the fact that BioWare isn't giving you a persecution tool.

 

Such drama.

 

This IS the dating simulator game you are looking for.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Face it you've been unmasked as a EQ/Vanilla WOW masochist and that's that. More than enough feel like they do need them. Your Paragraphs have gotten noticeably smaller btw.

 

Just because they want them doesn't mean that they need them. Just because they feel like they need it doesn't mean that they need it either. Small children often feel that they need candy, but a responsible parent will say no to that request.

 

You want it, but it ain't here. You will adapt to it. Simple as that. You aren't going to force BioWare into including it and people won't quit because of it.

 

They are used to their crutch and it is time for those people to learn to stand on their own. All children have to have their training wheels removed from their bikes eventually... That time is now.

[Chosenxeno]

Just because they want them doesn't mean that they need them. Just because they feel like they need it doesn't mean that they need it either. Small children often feel that they need candy, but a responsible parent will say no to that request.

 

You want it, but it ain't here. You will adapt to it. Simple as that. You aren't going to force BioWare into including it and people won't quit because of it.

 

They are used to their crutch and it is time for those people to learn to stand on their own. All children have to have their training wheels removed from their bikes eventually... That time is now.

 

Now you attack as children while you stand there, with you fingers planted firmly in your ears going" la la la la la la" instead giving Valid reason why we shouldn't have a meter or parser?

 

Reduced to arguing just to Argue. This is sad.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Baaddare]

Just because they want them doesn't mean that they need them. Just because they feel like they need it doesn't mean that they need it either. Small children often feel that they need candy, but a responsible parent will say no to that request.

 

You want it, but it ain't here. You will adapt to it. Simple as that. You aren't going to force BioWare into including it and people won't quit because of it.

 

They are used to their crutch and it is time for those people to learn to stand on their own. All children have to have their training wheels removed from their bikes eventually... That time is now.

 

nicely stated

[Valcutio]

Interesting. I wonder if they'll remove talent trees now.

[Chosenxeno]

nicely stated

 

Which low pop low subs game did you come from EQ, DaOC, or are you a huge fan of Vanilla WOW.

 

All the High population and High Subs Games have these. I have exposed at least 4 now as Masochists from the above that are against anything that makes the game accessible. This game will be played by millions and that's that. This will not be a game played by 10 people because Grumpy Old Men from Cumbersome games with Archaic Design Philosophies want to hold it back.

 

 

They are also in the LFG and Macro Threads. I have yet to see anyone from a real MMORPG game vote against(INB4 liar).

[Setanian]

The minute you said DaOC and EQ(as if, I needed him to tell me this *guffaws*) you lost a lot of cred with me because those people are usually against anything that would make the game more accessible to anyone who is not some sort of Masochist.They think that somehow because they came from Cumbersome garbage with a Timesinkers Only model that they are better players than us.

 

 

I don't think anyone where is interested in gaining 'cred' with you.

 

The fact is, while you call those games 'cumbersome garbage' others find them to be more a challenge than, say something like 'kiddie MMO' WoW, which takes 'easy-mode' to the very extreme.

 

I certainly wouldn't claim to be a better player than you, how-ever the fact that you cannot play such a game without all the easy-mode additions, does indicate such a scenario.

 

You also 'claim' wildly that these easy-mode additions are 'the standard'. I would suggest, that for you and people like you, they are the standard. You expect to be handed everything on a plate, without once engaging your brain. And, that is fine, so long as you don't force your easy-mode on me.

 

I prefer challenging raids not raids that are care bear friendly and require nothing more than a face roll of the keys to win. Your mileage obviously differs.

[Setanian]

Which low pop low subs game did you come from EQ, DaOC, or are you a huge fan of Vanilla WOW.

 

All the High population and High Subs Games have these. I have exposed at least 4 now as Masochists from the above that are against anything that makes the game accessible. This game will be played by millions and that's that. This will not be a game played by 10 people because Grumpy Old Men from Cumbersome games with Archaic Design Philosophies want to hold it back.

 

 

They are also in the LFG and Macro Threads. I have yet to see anyone from a real MMORPG game vote against(INB4 liar).

 

Because all the MMOs that you accept as being the best cater for no-one else but care bear raiders.

[Aryzyra]

I prefer challenging raids not raids that are care bear friendly and require nothing more than a face roll of the keys to win.

 

 

Without a combat log, this game will be exactly what you claim to fear. Faceroll.

 

Or it will be completely inaccessible and hemorrhage players at cap.

 

Those are the options in an information void.