In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Tortoises]

OR you will have guild leaders requiring logs to be submitted at the end of each raid so they can be reviewed by leader and officers.

 

Where there is a will, there is a way (at least in guilds).

 

Sounds like its turning the game into a job if you ask me.

 

 

"I WANT THOSE DPS REPORTS TURNED IN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE RAID SO WE CAN CONDUCT A REVIEW OF YOUR PERFORMANCE!, ANYONE FOUND TO NOT BE PERFORMING WILL BE PUT ON A PERFORMANCE PLAN!"

 

Who would want to play a video game with people like that?

[Sulmithagreyse]

... Just ....

 

Competition provides motivation and the self confidence to achieve and want to set goals. I'm honestly in shock from your reaction. Why do you think we don't live in a communist society? Then again, that is probably over your head. Promoting competition is generally a good characteristic of life, not just video games.

 

And yes, when people argue against combat logs/recount, it generally means they are bad and don't wanna be called out for it.

 

or it means they know most MMO players are bad and that their experience will be less stressful if they don't know how bad their friend is.

 

there is NO HELPING bad players. bad players aren't like someone with a disease you can cure, they're like someone with an ugly face that is just going to be ugly forever. they are bads. bads are bads for life. they mainly don't CARE enough to be competent.

 

weed that kind of person out by overall game knowledge and gear checking. if someone can fool you past that point, they've got hope and the meters may not show that. every well geared bad i've seen had someone behind them telling them HOW to do everything. if you ahve to tell someone HOW to gear they're never going to be good.

 

recount won't change that. recount is why people refuse to interrupt or throw an offheal.

[hushia]

... Just ....

 

Competition provides motivation and the self confidence to achieve and want to set goals. I'm honestly in shock from your reaction. Why do you think we don't live in a communist society? Then again, that is probably over your head. Promoting competition is generally a good characteristic of life, not just video games.

 

And yes, when people argue against combat logs/recount, it generally means they are bad and don't wanna be called out for it.

 

What the hell does communism have to do with anything said here, haha! And what's up with the 'that is probably over your head'? You don't have enough confidence in your arguments that you have to try and insult me instead?

 

Anyway, if people want to play a game in a competitive manner, by all means, let them. I don't care. Heck, I'm competitive as hell when I'm raiding and have a dps meter to look at

 

I'm just saying it's nonsense to state that people start playing Wow, only because they aspire to be the best player there is in the world top raiding guild. I know so many people who started playing wow because they like to play a game with other people in a friendly setting, not because they have ****** hardcore aspirations.

 

On topic: I'm all for a personal combat log parser so I can see the effect of rotation, gear, etc on my dps. Everyone can decide for themselves whether or not to use it.

 

I'm not too keen on having a global meter running real time when I am in a pug. And you know why? It's not because my dps sucks, or because I want to slack. It is because a substantial number of people are stupid and don't know how to interpret the data. They will use any stick they can get to start beating on everyone else if things don't go as they expected.

[ProfessorWalsh]

You want to join my heroic pug.. I'll force you to upload a combat log from within the last week to a website validating your claims of being able to defeat content.

 

I need a reason to start programming web pages again.

 

I simply will never group with you.

[hushia]

combat logs are so people can point fingers. i 100% understand why people want them, but then it takes away immersion from the game.

 

you can talk to someone and know in 15 seconds if they're a competent player or not. you can look at their gear. it's really simple to know who the problem is gonna be before you even enter combat.

 

at the same time, min-maxing is something people TALK ABOUT more than they do. when mr. bad smuggler tries to min-max his stats while having tons of slop in his rotation, he's really wasting time and probably becoming an unlikable ***** in the process

 

i can see the use of combat logs for internal testing for tuning purposes but everything after that is for e-peen

 

i've played MMOs for over a decade and i'm always one of the guys who can do his job exceptionally well. that's less about me and more about the average MMORPG player. i'll always know that the logical decisions i make for my toon will 100% work.

 

at the same time, the more math you introduce into the community, the less the game feels like an MMORPG. when you can't play a smuggler because the dps is 7% worse than a sorc, you've hurt the game.

 

i'd honestly rather fail more with a group i LIKE than knock out bosses with a group i don't care about. the point is to have fun and the people are the main factor in that.

 

when you realize that what you do in the game means NOTHING, you quit wanting to win at all costs and just want to have fun.

 

Thank you for this post. I totally agree with you.

[ProfessorWalsh]

You have no clue what a combat log is do you? You can't Photoshop it. It is literally a second by second log of your combat. To even attempt to edit it is THOUSANDS of lines just for one person. All damage to you and done by you is logged..

 

You just have to build a parser that modifies the text file to add a small random amount of damage to each and every damage input coming from the player. Then upload that log to the website that you decide on. In fact I will program one and distribute it if people start demanding to see other people's personal logs. You don't have the right to demand to see anyone's personal data if they don't want to show you.

Edited January 14, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Whash]

You just have to build a parser that modifies the text file to add a small random amount of damage to each and every damage input coming from the player. In fact I will program one and distribute it if people start demanding to see other people's personal logs. You don't have the right to demand to see anyone's personal data if they don't want to show you.

It's not personal data in a team-based game. This is like refusing to tell the other guys you're running a relay race with what your practice times are.

[Cheeba]

i need to see what i've dished out as well as the damage that i received (whether it be from a mob or player) i need to know so that it lets me better judge what i need to work on, etc...

 

oh yeah devs, still waiting on my chat bubbles as well!! (give us the option to enable/disable in prefs and all are happy)

[ProfessorWalsh]

It's not personal data in a team-based game. This is like refusing to tell the other guys you're running a relay race with what your practice times are.

 

No it is personal data. This is a game you don't need to check my stats. This isn't the Super Bowl here. If I don't want to show you I don't have to show you.

[Oneirophrenia]

I actually prefer it this way. It would certainly help prevent all of the pubescent, e-peen measurement, poo flinging contests that is common in some other MMOs. Not knowing how your DPS stack up against your teammates' DPS is a small price to pay for that benefit. Edited January 14, 2012 by Oneirophrenia

[Whash]

No it is personal data. This is a game you don't need to check my stats. This isn't the Super Bowl here. If I don't want to show you I don't have to show you.

The super bowl is a game too. Just because they play out at different levels, doesn't make them any less of a game, or any less team based. Your failure in TOR impacts your teammates in TOR in the same way a football player's does his teammates, or a bowler's does her teammates, or a golfer's does their teammates. The idea that your performance in a game is "personal data" that shouldn't be shared with the people you're playing with, is pretty crazy. Edited January 14, 2012 by Whash

[jarjarloves]

OR you will have guild leaders requiring logs to be submitted at the end of each raid so they can be reviewed by leader and officers.

 

Where there is a will, there is a way (at least in guilds).

 

thats when you quit the guild and find one that isn't run by control freaks.

[Chosenxeno]

I find it funny all the anti-WoW people drift from MMO to MMO and then fight against any improvement to the game that would make it more like WoW.

 

Then no one except those people play it because it doesn't have any of the convenience features a modern MMO should have.

 

Then the company realizes people are leaving in droves and starts adding these features to staunch the wound.

 

But it's too late, the game is mostly dead. Then the people who didn't want the game to be anything like WoW leave because it's now more like WoW and they go ruin the next MMO.

 

All the while they blame the death of the game on the WoW people.

 

This is exactly how it happens. Smart money is on being as Accessible as WOW without outright cloning it out of the gate. Masochists keep begging for EQ or Vanilla WOW. While we keep begging for it to be accessible. Then they accuse us of wanting a WOW clone lol when it's obvious those 2 crowds want a clone.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[EternalFinality]

I can't believe how idiotic people are being in this topic. I like how people have desperately tried to distract the issue away from a combat log to "dps meters."

 

Combat logs are not DPS meters.

 

Combat logs are not Recount.

 

Combat logs are not threat meters.

 

Combat logs are not guilds kicking you because your dps is too low.

 

A dps meter is a third party mod that uses the output of the combat log. If you don't want dps meters, why aren't you lobbying with Bioware to prevent those?

 

What can a combat log do?

 

Show how much an enemy hit you for.

Show who is attacking you.

Show how much your abilities hit enemies for.

Show when an enemy resists you ability in some manner, and why.

Show how much damage an enemy absorbs.

Show when an enemy uses an ability, like a buff.

Show when an enemy is healed, and for how much.

Show who is healing an enemy.

 

Obviously, much of this is indispensable information in PvP, and also has some utility in PvE encounters.

 

To cripple crucial gameplay functionality because you're afraid not of having more information, but what other players could do with that information to discriminate against you with a 3rd party mod is beyond moronic. Words cannot describe how much I hate short sighted people who believe such a position. More information is ALWAYS BETTER.

Edited January 14, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Whash]

Except, and this is a pretty major different here, TOR is not a competitive sport which we are paid hundreds of thousands a year to play.

So? You couldn't walk into your local bowling league and get away with telling your fat, chain smoking, 64 year old teamate with a limp that he couldn't keep track of your score because it was your "personal data".

[babynubnub]

Combat logs only for yourself, this is a stupid idea, it's just inane that you would not be able to see what is happening to the group. I understand the thought process of not wanting other people feelings getting hurt, but if they are bad, they should know it and everyone else should so that they won't be grouped with.

[hushia]

You cannot compare a computer game people play as passtime with a competitive sports where the stakes are high and money is involved (super bowl). Edited January 14, 2012 by hushia

[sosolidshoe]

So? You couldn't walk into your local bowling league and get away with telling your fat, chain smoking, 64 year old teamate with a limp that he couldn't keep track of your score because it was your "personal data".

 

A; I never used the term "personal data", learn to respond to the person who you are quoting. B; nobody outside of America bowls, this is doubly true when discussing organised leagues, it's a joke sport played by children for their birthday parties in the rest of the world. C; MMOs are not even on the level of a semi-pro or amateur league, perhaps excepting PvP, they are more akin to you and a few mates kicking a ball around in the park on a saturday. D; you handily failed to refute my point that PvE play in MMOs is cooperative, not competitive.

 

Next.

[Mannic]

This is an example of one of those half-*** measures that developers take when they're trying to look like they're doing something without pissing people off. It will cause more complaining.

 

Either don't do it at all, and say that you aren't in favor of metrics, or provide the tools for metrics and let the community do with those tools what they will. Don't make a half-assed tool and expect it to placate the community.

[Whash]

A; I never used the term "personal data", learn to respond to the person who you are quoting. B; nobody outside of America bowls, this is doubly true when discussing organised leagues, it's a joke sport played by children for their birthday parties in the rest of the world. C; MMOs are not even on the level of a semi-pro or amateur league, perhaps excepting PvP, they are more akin to you and a few mates kicking a ball around in the park on a saturday. D; you handily failed to refute my point that PvE play in MMOs is cooperative, not competitive.

You can change the sport or the game to anything you'd like, and the analogy still holds. You can't play a team based game without everyone on the team knowing what you're doing.

[EternalFinality]

A; I never used the term "personal data", learn to respond to the person who you are quoting. B; nobody outside of America bowls, this is doubly true when discussing organised leagues, it's a joke sport played by children for their birthday parties in the rest of the world. C; MMOs are not even on the level of a semi-pro or amateur league, perhaps excepting PvP, they are more akin to you and a few mates kicking a ball around in the park on a saturday. D; you handily failed to refute my point that PvE play in MMOs is cooperative, not competitive.

 

Next.

 

You know what's a real joke sport? Soccer.

 

Regardless, how about a different example: Golf.

 

Even people outside of America play that.

[hushia]

Combat logs only for yourself, this is a stupid idea, it's just inane that you would not be able to see what is happening to the group. I understand the thought process of not wanting other people feelings getting hurt, but if they are bad, they should know it and everyone else should so that they won't be grouped with.

 

A combat log for yourself is a great idea. It gives you the opportunity to see how changes in your character's gear and rotation affect your dps output. If you think that is stupid, I wonder why you think seeing other ppl's combat results is not stupid.

 

Personally I do not need to see other ppl's combat logs. If they are a bad player I don't need a log to tell me. People who do not know how to play their character will also be the ones rolling need on the wrong stuff, standing in the wrong spot at the wrong time and doing other silly things during fights.

 

/edit

Come to think of it.. people use dps to measure if someone is a good or bad player. But dps is just one of the many things that define a good player. I personally rather have someone with decent enough dps and great awareness of what's going on in the fight, than a killer dps blindly focussing on the boss.

Edited January 14, 2012 by hushia

[Chosenxeno]

I can't believe how idiotic people are being in this topic. I like how people have desperately tried to distract the issue away from a combat log to "dps meters all week."

 

This is so true. You know what's even more funny? I'm not even a DPSers. I Heal and i've pretty much been in here fighting for a meter.

 

As a healer I am a blame target with or without a Parser. A Parser/ Meter would lessen the chances of people automatically assuming" i'm not doing my job" after multiple wipes now that you can better see:

 

Who died standing in what.

 

Who continued to DPS when they should have been interupting.

 

Who's not Dispelling that mark of doom.

 

Who's AFK for burrito and not attacking.

 

This thing is just as important for lessening the amount of blame for tanks and healers, as it is for Damage output.

 

So I will keep fighting for it. People think that they get blamed too much and removed from groups? Try healing for a while. The level of Blame is on a whole different level lol

Edited January 14, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Spliffmaster]

This is so true. You know what's even more funny? I'm not even a DPSers. I Heal and i've pretty much been in here fighting for a meter.

 

As a healer I am a blame target with or without a Parser. A Parser/ Meter would lessen the chances of people automatically assuming" i'm not doing my job" after multiple wipes now that you can better see:

 

Who died standing in what.

 

Who continued to DPS when they should have been interupting.

 

Who's not Dispelling that mark of doom.

 

Who's AFK for burrito and not attacking.

 

This thing is just as important for lessening the amount of blame for tanks and healers, as it is for Damage output.

 

So I will keep fighting for it. People think that they get blamed too much and removed from groups? Try healing for a while. The level of Blame is on a whole different level lol

 

Everyone should read this post. You are 100 percent spot on. I have healed in MMOs for the last 8 years and can empathize. I like the idea. I like the idea of knowing who auto-attacks.

[Whash]

A combat log for yourself is a great idea. It gives you the opportunity to see how changes in your character's gear and rotation affect your dps output.

I hear not everyone plays DPS.