In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Hairless]

You saying it's fact does not make it fact. Alot of people believe it would not be healthy for the community and I am one of those people. Just because you believe in yours as strongly does not make my position any less invalid no matter how much you would like it to. Their is no data...because their is no combat log.

 

You guys are just an extreme minority. Combat logs, addons, etc never negatively affected an average player raiding with his average guild.

An average guild benefited from combat logs and addons because it assisted them in progression.

An average player does not get kicked from pugs for underperforming.

For every 1 baddie that got kicked, there were 24 others who benefited from it.

There are immensely more average players in the game than extreme bads who get kicked from pugs.

Having combat logs and addons is more beneficial to the community as a whole.

Tons different communities healthily exist in WoW. There are RP guilds, casual guilds, pvp guilds, social guilds, raiding guilds, hardcore guilds, etc. Combat logging/addons in WoW didn't prevent those communities from forming and prospering.

Without full combat logging, the raiding community in SWTOR will be a joke.

Without addons, there will be no add ons community.

 

BW/EA wants to make as much money as possible. Why did they even bother putting in raiding content? They aren't here to profit off a little casual playground. An MMORPG made for that intent is Maplestory.

[Cranberries]

Confirmed for 12 year old.

 

This.

[DragonAgeOrgins]

Being abusive verbally over the internet also does not make your point more valid. It just show's a taste of what's to come if you get your little crutch to lean on. For now I am basking in the glory that you no have it nor will it come in the near future.

[Korialstrazs]

Being abusive verbally over the internet also does not make your point more valid. It just show's a taste of what's to come if you get your little crutch to lean on. For now I am basking in the glory that you no have it nor will it come in the near future.

 

How is any kind of parsing program a crutch, tell me this.

[Chosenxeno]

oh vanguard what game it could of been too bad nobody played it at least on the servers i tried.

 

grouping leads to much stronger communities within the game. there was mutual respect among players (for the most part). the bosses were up for everyone, not instanced like wow at least when i played). we had rotations for dungeons and agreements among guilds. how would that work out in wow?

 

as for the addons i didn't mind them at first but after a while i got really bored of being told when the next boss move is. now the encounters are so unforgiving you cannot play the game without them. the kills just didn't seem as rewarding.

 

 

Yea VG could have been special. I actually chose to go to it instead of buying TBC at the time:)

 

Back to the war:

 

Grouping can sometimes lead to griefing isn't that partly why you were against LFD and Parsers because of potential griefing while "grouped" they could lead too? Does what you want somehow become impossible with these things? Does griefing while "grouped" suddenly disappear with out them?

 

Instancing came about because it's not fun to watch that 1 leet guild gear up every week. Instancing makes it so everyone has a shot at the best gear in the game not just the people who happened to be awake 3:23 A.M on the 2nd of june during a snowstorm lol.

 

Why is the more inclusive style(instancing) bad? Everyone gets a chance this way. Why do EQers have this "snowflake" mentality. Why can't we all look good? You claim to want grouping to enhance the social aspect, but your not wanting instancing points to a very Elitist and Un-inclusive mentality. "Time-Sinkers should have the best stuff and that's it!" is what you really feel. You want as many people gasping at the size of your epeen as possible instead of feeling the same feeling of pride as you. That's really sad.

 

 

Again. I'm 100% sure you don't have to download addons and that there is nothing in the EULA of any MMO that says you MUST join a guild that uses them.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[DragonAgeOrgins]

How is any kind of parsing program a crutch, tell me this.

 

For those who need a mod to down content in a certain amount of time and those who can figure it out without a MOD telling them what to do. It's a weakness for those who are not self aware and those who need a mod to tell them EVERYTHING to do. Those who are smart can figure it out without it and that's sad.

 

It's a crutch. A weakness. It's something to lean on. Now I'm going back to the MOD FREE game and continue to play it while you sit here and complain about not having something. Enjoy your time on here. I will be enjoying my time in recount free SWTOR.

[Cranberries]

For those who need a mod to down content in a certain amount of time and those who can figure it out without a MOD telling them what to do. It's a weakness for those who are not self aware and those who need a mod to tell them EVERYTHING to do. Those who are smart can figure it out without it and that's sad.

 

It's a crutch. A weakness. It's something to lean on. Now I'm going back to the MOD FREE game and continue to play it while you sit here and complain about not having something. Enjoy your time on here. I will be enjoying my time in recount free SWTOR.

 

You are in a 16 man raid. You have 10 DPS, 5 healers and 1 tank.

 

You need each DPS to do 1500 DPS.

 

Why is parsing a crutch when content is designed around enrage timers?

Edited January 13, 2012 by Cranberries

[Chosenxeno]

You are in a 16 man raid. You have 10 DPS, 5 healers and 1 tank.

 

You need each DPS to do 1500 DPS.

 

Why is parsing a crutch when content is designed around enrage timers? You're pretty stupid.

 

It's fun watching people like him that have no real Argument talk in circles isn't it? I could go back and forth with him all day:)

[Korialstrazs]

For those who need a mod to down content in a certain amount of time and those who can figure it out without a MOD telling them what to do. It's a weakness for those who are not self aware and those who need a mod to tell them EVERYTHING to do. Those who are smart can figure it out without it and that's sad.

 

It's a crutch. A weakness. It's something to lean on. Now I'm going back to the MOD FREE game and continue to play it while you sit here and complain about not having something. Enjoy your time on here. I will be enjoying my time in recount free SWTOR.

 

Parsers will not automatically improve your performance. They do not tell you what to do, they do not help you be more aware and a smart person can still be uninformed without the data they provide. There is no weakness in a lack of information, if you can tell me right now the dps differential between each of the dps specs in the game I will acknowledge I am unskilled, while you clearly are.

[Chosenxeno]

Yea VG could have been special. I actually chose to go to it instead of buying TBC at the time:)

 

Back to the war:

 

Grouping can sometimes lead to griefing isn't that partly why you were against LFD and Parsers because of potential griefing while "grouped" they could lead too? Does what you want somehow become impossible with these things? Does griefing while "grouped" suddenly disappear with out them?

 

 

Instancing came about because it's not fun to watch that 1 leet guild gear up every week. Instancing makes it so everyone has a shot at the best gear in the game not just the people who happened to be awake 3:23 A.M on the 2nd of june during a snowstorm lol.

 

Why is the more inclusive style(instancing) bad? Everyone gets a chance this way. Why do EQers have this "snowflake" mentality. Why can't we all look good? You claim to want grouping to enhance the social aspect, but your not wanting instancing points to a very Elitist and Un-inclusive mentality. "Time-Sinkers should have the best stuff and that's it!" is what you really feel. You want as many people gasping at the size of your epeen as possible instead of feeling the same feeling of pride as you. That's really sad.

 

 

Again. I'm 100% sure you don't have to download addons and that there is nothing in the EULA of any MMO that says you MUST join a guild that uses them.

 

Quoted because I want to hear GuidedbyVoices make more nonsensical and contradictory arguments:)

Edited January 13, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[kiddeth]

It's a start.

 

Its all there needs to be.

[Hy_C]

I'm pretty sure those two are just trolling.

[Blackwater]

It's a start.

 

Hell yeah it is! SWTOR will be up to 2003 standards in no time!

Edited January 13, 2012 by Blackwater

[Chosenxeno]

I think I tucked those 2 in for the night. They have no Argument. They want this game to be EQ and every stance they take proves it.

[ironix]

if this is in game why do you need a parser again?

 

Really? Your argument is that people can jump through idiotic hoops to measure their DPS as the reason we shouldn't have any type of public combat logging?

 

I'm sorry, but as many people have already noted, the only reason I can see that people oppose having access to data metrics is simply because of fear.

[Dazgra]

Originally Posted by Cranberries

 

 

Most people in this thread are *********** clueless so let me fill you in.

 

Let's take the current ONLY impossible fight in the game: Soa, the Infernal One, on nightmare mode. This thread details why is it impossible: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=147413

 

Note where you have to meet utterly IMPOSSIBLE DPS requirements over a set period of time to even come close to killing the boss. This is why universal combat logs are necessary. If I'm playing and achieving 2.2k DPS over 20 seconds (it's actually impossible at the moment, but I digress) and everyone else it apart from 1 person who is doing 1.1k DPS I have a bloody right to know who that complete *********** moron is so I can either tell him to DPS properly, or get the **** out of my progression - aiming for World Firsts - guild.

 

Let's take a completely doable fight, Commander Jorland in Boarding Party:

The engineer has no aggro table and 90,000 hp~

The medic has an aggro table and 90,000 hp~

Commander Jorland has 120,000 hp~

 

The enrage is 150 seconds:

400,000 / 2666.66

2666.66 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 888.88

 

Now this is a tightly tuned enrage, which also requires interrupts on the Medic (else he gets healed) and exceptional healing. If you wipe to the enrage there are multiple reasons why:

1) Interrupts on medic weren't occuring, meaning he was taking longer to kill

2) DPS wasn't high enough

3) Healing didn't allow DPS to properly rotate their max DPS rotation

4) People weren't focusing properly

5) Someone died - out of their own stupidity/healing issue

 

That's 5 reasons why a boss didn't die due to a strict enrage. A global combat log, thus something designed like Skada (Skada) would help identify the reason. Skada has these different modes:

- Damage done,

- DPS, Threat,

- Enemy damage done,

- Enemy damage taken,

- Healing, Overhealing,

- Total healing,

- Absorbs estimated,

- Damage taken, Dispels,

- Mana regen,

- Debuff uptimes,

- Activity

 

There is only 1 reason why people wouldn't want something like Skada in this game: they don't want their DPS to be recognised. If someone said to me "your DPS will be too low" I'd say to them, as a good player, "take me and let me wipe the floor with you." I know I'm good, I know a combat log would show I'm good, thus I'm not afraid of a combat log being added into the game.

[Kourage]

You're kidding me right? You that naive?

They'll put in a combat log. With this, people will make a parser like they did in AoC. We will track everyone's performance.

[Hairless]

You're kidding me right? You that naive?

They'll put in a combat log. With this, people will make a parser like they did in AoC. We will track everyone's performance.

 

After seeing all these BS from the bads not wanting full combat log, I AM GOING TO USE IT TO THE FULLEST when we get them.

 

inb4 some anti-meter herpderp quotes my post and goes "this is why it's bad for the community"

[Reecelol]

Going to repost this since the other one was re posted and their argument was for and mine is against I believe this does express what I believe just as the other quoted expresses what they believe in.

 

those addons didnt do anything to wow. aside from making it harder for sub-par players to find groups and pointing out people who afking in parties to be fed already easy to get loots.

 

communities kill games. not addons. living with your heads in the sand and ignoring poor performance will result in this game being considered a huge joke.

[trajic]

thank god i dont pve >< its full of sissy girls Edited January 13, 2012 by trajic

[Hairless]

I am a sissy girl.

[Setanian]

I think I tucked those 2 in for the night. They have no Argument. They want this game to be EQ and every stance they take proves it.

 

Why do you feel you have the monopoly on being allowed to troll everyone you don't agree with, with blatant insults and references to stupid sites and then claim them as fact.

 

The facts are these;

 

The only reason you actually need parsers is because WoW and it's derivatives insist on creating raids (with a small r) containing a boss mob that kills people arbitrarily if it enrages. This fosters a requirement for all dps to be at their max for the entire encounter.

 

This in turn fosters elitism. We have seen this already in this thread; "If you're joining my group you'll submit a combat log to my site"

 

Oh! really!!?? You got the wrong chap mate. I play a game not a p*ssing contest. I've probably played MMOs longer than 80% of the people here. If you think I am going to stoop to kiddie mode to submit anything to your site, you have yet to mature into adult mode.

 

Fact, those people not subscribing to add-ons and combat logs does not equal "bad". That you might think so, is just another juvenile attempt to play Mr. Internet Anonymous.

 

Fact, I don't care whether you need logs to ensure everyone is pumping out the same dps with the same face rolling rotation with the same spec. Faceroll your heart out. What I do care about is the community on the game. You'll get your parsers, you cried long and hard for care bear raiding and you shall have it. The problem is, that will trickle all the way down to the casuals looking to do a class quest and then be asked to (sorry this makes me laugh) submit a log for perusal by some kid who thinks he's Captain Raider Extraordinaire.

 

Fact: WoW had better graphics than EQ1. It had many built in add-ons that EQ never had and never will have. It had no run for your corpse timesink and it had no EQ1 type grinding. It attracted all the care bears and even more as it and technology allowed for a younger and younger audience. Does that make it better ? Absolutely Not.

 

Fact: Wow attracts kids by the droves. It's care-bear in absolutely every way. PvE, Raiding, crafting, everything. That is why it is so popular. Blizzard recognized that early on and reaped the benefits by making it easier and easier.

 

Fact: After parsers we had GearScore. Everyime you needed a group or more, you were examined for a gearscore and some kiddie who couldn't even talk properly without a 'z' on the end of everything told you were inferior. When you became eligible, it turns out all those kiddie gearscore peeps were just face rolling the keyboard and had absolutely no idea what to do if something went wrong but blame anyone but themselves.

 

Fact: WoW and meters fostered the notion of cookie cutter class specs. By having the infinite details of every encounter, people were able to code up lists that everyone else what dps was required and to attain that level of dps you required a certain rotation of certain abilities only available by selecting a given spec for your class.

 

Fact: WoW and the add-ons created a game that was played by millions of players who all played the flavor of the month spec and rotation. Added to that was the ability to be told by the game what key or ability to press next. Then added to that was the ability to be told when to move during an encounter.

 

Fact: These meters and their ilk, fostered a player who was no more than an dumb automaton rolling the instructions of someone else who had gleaned all the numbers and macro'd it.

 

Fact: Now we are in a situation whereby every MMO must have these meters and add-ons so the players will not feel inferior and (laughing again) 'bad' because they were never really able to play without the game or it's add-ons telling them what to do.

 

 

 

You guys can have your meters and your helpers and add-ons, I will rest easy knowing that at least for a special moment in my life, I was actually able to play my class without them.

 

I'll rest easy knowing that what we're really seeing is the dawn of the player paying a subscription to a game which they play by following the instructions on the packet.

 

I never really understood why people called others "care bear" in forums. Now, I see the light. Hallelujah !

[Aryzyra]

 

Oh! really!!?? You got the wrong chap mate. I play a game not a p*ssing contest. I've probably played MMOs longer than 80% of the people here. If you think I am going to stoop to kiddie mode to submit anything to your site, you have yet to mature into adult mode.

 

If this is unintentional irony, it's quite precious.

 

If that post full of "facts" was parody, bravo. If not, well, um, carry on..

[Hairless]

Why do you feel you have the monopoly on being allowed to troll everyone you don't agree with, with blatant insults and references to stupid sites and then claim them as fact.

 

The facts are these;

 

The only reason you actually need parsers is because WoW and it's derivatives insist on creating raids (with a small r) containing a boss mob that kills people arbitrarily if it enrages. This fosters a requirement for all dps to be at their max for the entire encounter.

 

This in turn fosters elitism. We have seen this already in this thread; "If you're joining my group you'll submit a combat log to my site"

 

Oh! really!!?? You got the wrong chap mate. I play a game not a p*ssing contest. I've probably played MMOs longer than 80% of the people here. If you think I am going to stoop to kiddie mode to submit anything to your site, you have yet to mature into adult mode.

 

Fact, those people not subscribing to add-ons and combat logs does not equal "bad". That you might think so, is just another juvenile attempt to play Mr. Internet Anonymous.

 

Fact, I don't care whether you need logs to ensure everyone is pumping out the same dps with the same face rolling rotation with the same spec. Faceroll your heart out. What I do care about is the community on the game. You'll get your parsers, you cried long and hard for care bear raiding and you shall have it. The problem is, that will trickle all the way down to the casuals looking to do a class quest and then be asked to (sorry this makes me laugh) submit a log for perusal by some kid who thinks he's Captain Raider Extraordinaire.

 

Fact: WoW had better graphics than EQ1. It had many built in add-ons that EQ never had and never will have. It had no run for your corpse timesink and it had no EQ1 type grinding. It attracted all the care bears and even more as it and technology allowed for a younger and younger audience. Does that make it better ? Absolutely Not.

 

Fact: Wow attracts kids by the droves. It's care-bear in absolutely every way. PvE, Raiding, crafting, everything. That is why it is so popular. Blizzard recognized that early on and reaped the benefits by making it easier and easier.

 

Fact: After parsers we had GearScore. Everyime you needed a group or more, you were examined for a gearscore and some kiddie who couldn't even talk properly without a 'z' on the end of everything told you were inferior. When you became eligible, it turns out all those kiddie gearscore peeps were just face rolling the keyboard and had absolutely no idea what to do if something went wrong but blame anyone but themselves.

 

Fact: WoW and meters fostered the notion of cookie cutter class specs. By having the infinite details of every encounter, people were able to code up lists that everyone else what dps was required and to attain that level of dps you required a certain rotation of certain abilities only available by selecting a given spec for your class.

 

Fact: WoW and the add-ons created a game that was played by millions of players who all played the flavor of the month spec and rotation. Added to that was the ability to be told by the game what key or ability to press next. Then added to that was the ability to be told when to move during an encounter.

 

Fact: These meters and their ilk, fostered a player who was no more than an dumb automaton rolling the instructions of someone else who had gleaned all the numbers and macro'd it.

 

Fact: Now we are in a situation whereby every MMO must have these meters and add-ons so the players will not feel inferior and (laughing again) 'bad' because they were never really able to play without the game or it's add-ons telling them what to do.

 

 

 

You guys can have your meters and your helpers and add-ons, I will rest easy knowing that at least for a special moment in my life, I was actually able to play my class without them.

 

I'll rest easy knowing that what we're really seeing is the dawn of the player paying a subscription to a game which they play by following the instructions on the packet.

 

I never really understood why people called others "care bear" in forums. Now, I see the light. Hallelujah !

 

Damn. You experience in WoW must have been traumatic. Sounds like a lot of people used meters against you. I really wonder why.

 

I have a solution for you. STOP TRYING TO RAID WITH PUGS. They obviously don't like you man. People don't pay $15 a month to play with people they don't want to play with. Just find a guild that will be nice to you. It's as simple as that.

[CyberData]

OR you will have guild leaders requiring logs to be submitted at the end of each raid so they can be reviewed by leader and officers.

 

Where there is a will, there is a way (at least in guilds).

 

Then quit the guild if you don't like their policy.

 

I personally won't join a guild if an "interview" is required. Doesn't mean it's bad, just not my cup of tea. I'm laid back and want to chill with laid back peeps.

 

Some of you need to grow a spine....