Lack of Guild Features

[ElementalCrisis]

Also nothing suggested that this was specifically aimed at RP guilds. Anyone attempting to run a PVE raiding guild without a website is an idiot.

 

I disagree, why should a guild force its members to constantly visit a website just to maintain membership and get informed on current events? Wouldn't an in-game system, if available be able to do these things ant more?

 

Also, stating that essentially the majority of current guilds and their leaderships are idiots is elitist. If you think a proper guild requires a website then your in the minority.

[Yhor]

Also nothing suggested that this was specifically aimed at RP guilds. Anyone attempting to run a PVE raiding guild without a website is an idiot.

 

Your guild sounds like so much fun!

 

BTW

I always date psycho chicks because I'm a masochist.

[Xontier]

Again, I disagree. Here are the questions I would put to you:

 

1) Where do you host your guild rules?

Even WoW had a rather elaborate guild description menu. This is where rules could go and its worked fine for a lot of guilds.

2) Where do you discuss guild policy? You can't just do this ad hoc in guild chat and keep it fair and open.

See above.

3) Where do you link levelling guides etc? I know you're RP but surely that doesn't mean you have absolutely no interest in playing well!!

Maybe its because I haven't been in a raiding guild for many years, but I can't remember a single time anyone ever threw up guides on an RP guild forum simply because the mindset of an RPer is different. Most of us don't care about the fastest or most effecient way to hit max level simply because... well, max level for us is no different than level 20.

4) Where do you give details about RP events?

Again, a calendar function, properly implemented in game, can easily fix this.

 

5) If someone was unable to attend an event they had committed to how would they let you know this?

In-game mail, which, even with a website is how I've usually seen it done. AT least then its guaranteed to be seen by those that need to see it.

 

I know quite a few RP guild leaders with established websites. I seriously think anyone trying to run a guild without bothering to use a site is just holding themselves back.

As have I. But saying a guild website is required is far from true. If Developers actually took the time to add tools to their game most of these features could replace guild websites.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not speaking out against a website. I'm just saying that with the right tools, its much less required. SWTOR as it stands now a guild website is pretty much required, but if the UI team took the time to add some of the features mentioned, for the vast majority of guilds a website wouldn't be needed or even required.

[Amonette]

Your guild sounds like so much fun!

 

BTW

I always date psycho chicks because I'm a masochist.

 

It is actually, we have a great time. Partly because people love the fact that we've taken the time to put the basics in place and the guild really works, which is why we're the ones doing the raids first and getting server firsts. We're not being ***** about forum usage, it's just the system our guild uses and we have attracted players that like having a forum and a system. we're a chatty, social guild and having a good forum has meant that we have achieved the things we want to achieve in and out of game. If there was an in game system we'd use it as well but that doesn't make it necessary, it really isn't at all (except guild bank - I can't store epics on my website!!) . Personally I think that guild leaders who go to such great lengths to justify why they haven't set their guild and forum up properly in the first place are just extremely lazy and only started a guild to have some kind of power or haven't got the smarts to put a simple forum together and are hiding this by pretending they don;'t think forums are useful.

 

Go and have a look at the top guilds in ANY MMO and you will see well thought out and well maintained forums.

[Amonette]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not speaking out against a website. I'm just saying that with the right tools, its much less required. SWTOR as it stands now a guild website is pretty much required, but if the UI team took the time to add some of the features mentioned, for the vast majority of guilds a website wouldn't be needed or even required.

 

Yeah I can see why having more in game features would make a website less necessary, but that's not a good thing! It means guilds get lazy, they have the basics in game so they never sort out anything else and miss out on a lot. If you're a really small guild though it isn't quite as important, but if like me you are running a guild of around 50 or more then a website will make you far more effective (unless, as I said before, you're more interested in a power trip than a functioning guild).

[Xontier]

Yeah I can see why having more in game features would make a website less necessary, but that's not a good thing! It means guilds get lazy, they have the basics in game so they never sort out anything else and miss out on a lot. If you're a really small guild though it isn't quite as important, but if like me you are running a guild of around 50 or more then a website will make you far more effective (unless, as I said before, you're more interested in a power trip than a functioning guild).

 

I can't say this in any polite form but to me... the leaders of raiding guilds are the ones on a power trip. I have never met more rude, stuck up, and *****ish people than them. I'm not saying you or everyone falls under this category, but I've found raiding guild leaders to be the most distastful leaders I have ever met in guilds.

 

ALSO, *** does it matter what other guilds do? If you're afraid that not utilizing a website would detract from the awesomeness of your guild, then continue to force the use of your website. You already do that, so what would be different? Why would a guild that doesn't do this affect you in any way? Their raiding progression does not hinder yours. Trying to claim that adding such features would be bad for YOUR GUILD is the true stupidity. If a leader wants to be "bad" at leader, then let them. If you want to be "good" at leading, then by all means continue what you're doing.

 

Having these features would affect you in no way whatsoever, whether or not other guilds use them. They would actually probably help more guilds than they harm, if they would do any harm in the first place. Which I doubt.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh or offensive in any way, though I honestly can't think of a truly polite way to bring those up.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Xontier

[Yhor]

 

Go and have a look at the top guilds in ANY MMO and you will see well thought out and well maintained forums.

 

I understand, I've actually been there and done that. My post was more facetious than sarcastic, though looking at it now, it does look like pure sarcasm.

 

 

 

On topic: Different strokes for different folks. A website isn't necessary for people who are operating (in) social / RP / PvP / casual guilds... unless they aim to please everyone in their niche of the game world. More guild features are definitely needed; BW says some new features are incoming, but if they're doing like they're doing their official forums... I wonder if it will be anything like what the customers are requesting.

[Amonette]

I can't say this in any polite form but to me... the leaders of raiding guilds are the ones on a power trip. I have never met more rude, stuck up, and *****ish people than them. I'm not saying you or everyone falls under this category, but I've found raiding guild leaders to be the most distastful leaders I have ever met in guilds.

 

ALSO, *** does it matter what other guilds do? If you're afraid that not utilizing a website would detract from the awesomeness of your guild, then continue to force the use of your website. You already do that, so what would be different? Why would a guild that doesn't do this affect you in any way? Their raiding progression does not hinder yours. Trying to claim that adding such features would be bad for YOUR GUILD is the true stupidity. If a leader wants to be "bad" at leader, then let them. If you want to be "good" at leading, then by all means continue what you're doing.

 

Having these features would affect you in no way whatsoever, whether or not other guilds use them. They would actually probably help more guilds than they harm, if they would do any harm in the first place. Which I doubt.

 

I'm not trying to be harsh or offensive in any way, though I honestly can't think of a truly polite way to bring those up.

 

Yes, raiding guild leaders do tend to be pretentious ******es. We're a casual raid guild that became successful without trying, partly due to our level of organisation.

 

This is a discussion topic in which I am airing my opinion, so I'm not sure why you are taking it as me telling people what to do. of course it wouldn't affect my guild.

 

Actually I would like to see the other guilds on our server get their acts together, then maybe I wouldn't have to go through so many damn applications! getting a bit sick of hearing 'you're the only guild in the server that is organised so I want to join' and having hardcore raiders getting all angry when we tell them they probably want a more raid focussed guild then us. So yeah I would dearly love to see more organised guilds on our server!

 

Also I haven't claimed that adding the features are stupid, what I'm saying is that having these features in game only goes half the way. Not sure why you're being a dick about it...

[Xontier]

Yes, raiding guild leaders do tend to be pretentious ******es. We're a casual raid guild that became successful without trying, partly due to our level of organisation.

 

This is a discussion topic in which I am airing my opinion, so I'm not sure why you are taking it as me telling people what to do. of course it wouldn't affect my guild.

 

Actually I would like to see the other guilds on our server get their acts together, then maybe I wouldn't have to go through so many damn applications! getting a bit sick of hearing 'you're the only guild in the server that is organised so I want to join' and having hardcore raiders getting all angry when we tell them they probably want a more raid focussed guild then us. So yeah I would dearly love to see more organised guilds on our server!

 

Also I haven't claimed that adding the features are stupid, what I'm saying is that having these features in game only goes half the way. Not sure why you're being a dick about it...

 

Actually, your previous posts point out the exact mindset you're claiming to not have. I'm not trying to start a war here, and maybe you had a poor choice of wording or a misunderstanding due to the lack of tone in text but you've claimed multiple times that guilds that do not use such features are somehow "bad" and the leaders are "idiots". To me, this says that you view such guilds as inferior and they're not doing it correctly. Hence, telling people what to do.

 

I AM sorry if it came off as rather harsh, but I must admit the way I read your posts sounded quite harsh to begin with. Again, I chalk this up due to poor word choice and lack of tone through text.

[Amonette]

Well yeah I think really I was responding to the hostility on your posts tbh.

 

I stand by what I said though - if you are running PVE RAID (note that I am taking only about raiding guilds) guild and you don't use a forum in a game like this you are either an idiot who doesn't know any better or they simply have no appreciation of the work it takes to run a raiding guild well. I have seen people in disorganised raiding guilds - they're usually the ones pugging for members because they didn't think of having an application process and don't have a class balance, or they enter around the same time of us and when we finish it a little later they are still on the first bit and screaming at each other because no one asked them to watch a guide to the raid they are running before they arrived (or had anywhere to post a link on it) and none of them have the slightest clue what they're doing. I'm sticking to this opinion because I have seen it to be true time and time again, I'm sorry if you think that's arrogant.

 

And it's not about forcing people to check the forum - I have an average of 20 guild members a day checking the forum (more if we have something planned) because they WANT to. They appreciate the amount of time I spent getting this guild running and they see the effects of it. No one is forcing anyone. We're not a hardcore raiding guild - we're just organised.

[Xontier]

For raiding guilds, sure I could see the benefit. Like I said, I used to raid years back before the drama and stress got to be too much for me. Then again, if the tools were indepth and fleshed out enough in-game, I still believe that the use of forums could be eliminated entirely. Hell, how awesome would it be to have customizable in-game forums where you could set your own sections and moderators? Until your past couple of posts though, you didn't make it clear you were talking solely Raiding. It sounded more along the lines of you speaking about all guild types.

 

As for my own hostility, I admit I've grown rather callous toward forum posters simply because most of them state opinion and fallacy as fact and truth.

 

Finally, I do believe you said you required members to be active on your forums to keep membership in your first or second post on this thread. To me that sounds like being forced to use them.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Xontier

[SlayerUnas]

I disagree, why should a guild force its members to constantly visit a website just to maintain membership and get informed on current events? Wouldn't an in-game system, if available be able to do these things ant more?

 

Also, stating that essentially the majority of current guilds and their leaderships are idiots is elitist. If you think a proper guild requires a website then your in the minority.

 

Just wanted to say that I like your comment and I agree.

 

Although, one thing I agree with is how would the person get any information if they can't log into the game?

 

Say 10 people are waiting for one person who is late, and that person is on the bus home. Well, he can't log into the game and tell everyone. If he has a smart phone, and lets say he does for this example, then he could go to the site and post. And IF the guild leader or someone on the roster is paying attention to both the site and game then they should be able to see it.

 

But still, I like your stance in this matter, not picking on someone and not calling them stupid.

[Xontier]

Just wanted to say that I like your comment and I agree.

 

Although, one thing I agree with is how would the person get any information if they can't log into the game?

 

Say 10 people are waiting for one person who is late, and that person is on the bus home. Well, he can't log into the game and tell everyone. If he has a smart phone, and lets say he does for this example, then he could go to the site and post. And IF the guild leader or someone on the roster is paying attention to both the site and game then they should be able to see it.

 

But still, I like your stance in this matter, not picking on someone and not calling them stupid.

 

True, though I have to say I for one do NOT browse forums on my Android that are NOT mobile friendly. Its simply too much of a PITA to do. Though yes, in an 'emergency' one could take the time to log in and throw a quick message its still a very (relatively) limited number of people that own smartphones.

 

then again, to counter your argument they could easily implement an App that allows you to log into your account and talk to your guildmates that are online. WoW did the exact thing with WoW Remote, though I personally don't see the point of paying EXTRA every month for the feature. If it was free, it would have much more benefit.

 

That and if they don't have a smartphone... a website still wouldn't help.

[Amonette]

 

Say 10 people are waiting for one person who is late, and that person is on the bus home. Well, he can't log into the game and tell everyone. If he has a smart phone, and lets say he does for this example, then he could go to the site and post. And IF the guild leader or someone on the roster is paying attention to both the site and game then they should be able to see it.

 

 

Thgis is EXACTLY the reason an out of game contact point is essential if you are running a raiding guild.

[Amonette]

 

Finally, I do believe you said you required members to be active on your forums to keep membership in your first or second post on this thread. To me that sounds like being forced to use them. [/color]

 

Making something a requirement does no t force people to do it. Yes, it is a guild rule that you have to log onto the forum at least monthly. However if you want to raid you have to sign up on the forum. that's not forcing people to do anything, if they don;t want to do it that's fine, but they won;t be raiding with us because we didn't know they wanted to come. It's not about forcing people to do anything it's called ORGANISATION!

[Xontier]

Making something a requirement does no t force people to do it. Yes, it is a guild rule that you have to log onto the forum at least monthly. However if you want to raid you have to sign up on the forum. that's not forcing people to do anything, if they don;t want to do it that's fine, but they won;t be raiding with us because we didn't know they wanted to come. It's not about forcing people to do anything it's called ORGANISATION!

 

So making it a requirement to post on your forums in order to raid is not forcing people?

 

Force and requirement are synonyms in this context.

 

Again, I'm not speaking out against forums or external contact in any way, but I'm saying that if the UI developers actually gave use proper tools they could eliminate the need for a website entirely since it would just be redundant. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to save on hosting each month?

 

Proper in-game tools and a free App that lets you talk to in-game guildmates from your smartphone solves pretty much every situation I could think of in terms of why websites are required. And ultimately, it WOULD make the game better since everyone would have access to such deep and useful tools right in-game without having to alt-tab or log out.

[anstalt]

The best solution Bioware (or any mmo developer) could offer to satisfy everyone is to develop an API that allowed an exchange of information between in game and external sources.

 

So, for the vast majority of guilds, a website (or more specifically, a forum) is necessary to record information like walkthroughs, guild policies etc and also important for organising events, sorting DKP etc. Guild members need access to this sort of information when they aren't in game.

 

Similarly, websites aren't necessary for everyone and the implementation of in game guild tools would be more preferable. However, you are then completely limited in terms of access to information by the requirement of being in game. If your guild leader posted an event on the ingame calendar, you'd never know about it until you logged in and thus might miss out on it.

 

 

Now, if you could sync the in game tools with external websites then everyone wins. If I could post events in game and they appear on the website too, its win-win all round. Same with DKP / SK or whatever. You could keep your forums for discussions, rules etc but core functionality (calendar, loot rules or whatever) could sync. Granted, this would take quite a lot of effort for the developers to perform and get to work correctly and security becomes an issue (imagine someone wiping out your dkp list...) but I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

[Amonette]

So making it a requirement to post on your forums in order to raid is not forcing people?

 

Force and requirement are synonyms in this context.

 

Again, I'm not speaking out against forums or external contact in any way, but I'm saying that if the UI developers actually gave use proper tools they could eliminate the need for a website entirely since it would just be redundant. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to save on hosting each month?

 

Proper in-game tools and a free App that lets you talk to in-game guildmates from your smartphone solves pretty much every situation I could think of in terms of why websites are required. And ultimately, it WOULD make the game better since everyone would have access to such deep and useful tools right in-game without having to alt-tab or log out.

 

No of course it isn't forcing them. If they don't want to do it they don't have to, but the result of that is not raiding. Our guild rules are clear to everyone, you don't have to sign up if you don't want to. That's what rules are - if you want to belong to an organisation you abide by it's rules. I find it interesting that you think I am forcing people to post on a forum yet in another thread you are getting angry about people not sticking to naming convention rules and asking the GMs to force them to do that. Don't see the irony? How would you suggest we do raid signups - just ask people to run up if they feel like it? We will eventually have 40 people in the raiding pool when we're all level capped, if you haev a better way of organising a fair raiding system that allows for varying level sof gearing and time commitment I'd love to hear it, I could use a laugh.

 

Sounds like you lost track of yourself a few posts back and are just trying to disagree with me. You're actualy suggesting that a smartphone app that lets you communicate in game is a more sensible tool than a simple forum...

[Xontier]

The best solution Bioware (or any mmo developer) could offer to satisfy everyone is to develop an API that allowed an exchange of information between in game and external sources.

 

So, for the vast majority of guilds, a website (or more specifically, a forum) is necessary to record information like walkthroughs, guild policies etc and also important for organising events, sorting DKP etc. Guild members need access to this sort of information when they aren't in game.

 

Similarly, websites aren't necessary for everyone and the implementation of in game guild tools would be more preferable. However, you are then completely limited in terms of access to information by the requirement of being in game. If your guild leader posted an event on the ingame calendar, you'd never know about it until you logged in and thus might miss out on it.

 

 

Now, if you could sync the in game tools with external websites then everyone wins. If I could post events in game and they appear on the website too, its win-win all round. Same with DKP / SK or whatever. You could keep your forums for discussions, rules etc but core functionality (calendar, loot rules or whatever) could sync. Granted, this would take quite a lot of effort for the developers to perform and get to work correctly and security becomes an issue (imagine someone wiping out your dkp list...) but I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

 

Actually, that's a pretty bloody good idea. In-game tools linked to external ones.

 

Sadly it'll probably never happen, just like developers probably will never implement decent in-game tools to begin with.

[Xontier]

(Curse Bioware for not letting me delete my own posts. Sorry for the DP)

 

 

Actually, that's a pretty bloody good idea. In-game tools linked to external ones.

 

Sadly it'll probably never happen, just like developers probably will never implement decent in-game tools to begin with.

 

No of course it isn't forcing them. If they don't want to do it they don't have to, but the result of that is not raiding. Our guild rules are clear to everyone, you don't have to sign up if you don't want to. That's what rules are - if you want to belong to an organisation you abide by it's rules. I find it interesting that you think I am forcing people to post on a forum yet in another thread you are getting angry about people not sticking to naming convention rules and asking the GMs to force them to do that. Don't see the irony? How would you suggest we do raid signups - just ask people to run up if they feel like it? We will eventually have 40 people in the raiding pool when we're all level capped, if you haev a better way of organising a fair raiding system that allows for varying level sof gearing and time commitment I'd love to hear it, I could use a laugh.

 

Sounds like you lost track of yourself a few posts back and are just trying to disagree with me. You're actualy suggesting that a smartphone app that lets you communicate in game is a more sensible tool than a simple forum...

 

Actually, I'm starting to think we both lost track here.

 

here's the thing: If rules are enforced, that is, it is required to either do or not do something, then you're being forced to do or not do that action in order to continue participation. Just like in my other thread, I simply stated that Bioware should enforce their rules. If the rules say you can only use certain names, and you are not abiding by those rules, then you should not be part of the organization (game) any longer (or rather have them let you choose a new name).

 

While your guild rules say that you are required to post on a Raiding even thread in order to raid, that is forcing the person to post there. If they want to raid, they have NO CHOICE. I am simply pointing out that you seem to misunderstand the meaning of the word. Again, if an action is required to do something else, it is being forced upon the person. Not saying this is a bad thing, but I'm pointing out that's how it is.

 

Now please, I ask that you read the following VERY carefully because this is exactly what I'm saying on this particular issue:

 

If the proper tools were added in-game (even linked to a smartphone app or website API) then EVERYONE would benefit. Those that don't want a website would have the full access to in-game tools (forums, calendar, charts, whatever) and those that want a website would be able to easily sync information keeping everything together.

 

 

That API mentioned above was downright brilliant.

 

Finally, BEFORE the API was mentioned, I was saying that I saw very little need for a website if ALL THE TOOLS WERE AVAILABLE IN-GAME. The ONLY thing a website would be beneficial for are those that were unable to log in at the time, which is when I said a simple smartphone app would solve that issue in-case they couldn't make it to a raid. I can not honestly picture any situation were a website would be required IF BIOWARE GAVE US THE PROPER TOOLS. That is what I was saying.

 

The only difference now (since the API idea was brought up) is that both parties could get the most benefit.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Xontier

[Amonette]

TL: DR. I'm gonna get bored and wander off now.

[Amonette]

Although I will say that the reason it is not forcing people is simple. If you join the guild, you by doing so agree to abide by the rules. You have CHOSEN to do so. Therefore no one is being forced to do anything.

[Xontier]

Although I will say that the reason it is not forcing people is simple. If you join the guild, you by doing so agree to abide by the rules. You have CHOSEN to do so. Therefore no one is being forced to do anything.

 

Just as by playing the game you've chosen to agree with Bioware's rules.

 

Yes, they chose to join your guild, but no matter how you look at it if they wish to stay, they're forced to post. I'll state one last time, that "requirement" and "force" mean the exact same thing in this context. You cannot disagree with the English language.

 

But you're right. This is pointless. We are getting no where.

[SlayerUnas]

*Bash head on table* x3

 

I just got where the "Everybody's dead Dave," came from. Red Dwarf. I'm that nerdy. Nad I didn't even have to click it.

 

I think that a Guild with a website is rather neat, but also not entirely necessary. My guild has a website, but I only use it to commune with those who are not online. I like to have things organized, but I'm rather slack about it.

 

I'd love to see something implemented from BW that adds updates from the website to the game. I believe that has been suggested before.

 

I think the people who want to visit the site, will visit the site, and those who don't want to just will not.

 

I don't think that a guild has to have a website to be on top, or server firsts. And how does one know if they have a server first item?

 

I don't play much MMO's honestly. I jumped from SWG to WoW, to SWG again to see what was different... then some Perfect World, then back to WoW, then horde got shafted and too many idiots on WoW (Not everyone, and present company excluded I'm sure,) so I quit that, and played AOE Online and Eden Eternal for a extremely short bit while I waited for TOR.

 

So, in short I'm not a nerd for MMO's, I play what I like, and I'm pretty slack. I believe the bottom line is, if players wants to visit the site, or want a site, then they do, if not, then that's fine. If that's how they choose to play, then so be it. No one is wrong, they just enjoy what they enjoy.

[Amonette]

Just as by playing the game you've chosen to agree with Bioware's rules.

 

Yes, they chose to join your guild, but no matter how you look at it if they wish to stay, they're forced to post. I'll state one last time, that "requirement" and "force" mean the exact same thing in this context. You cannot disagree with the English language.

 

But you're right. This is pointless. We are getting no where.

 

No, they do not. Having a requirement for a voluntary group is not the same as forcing someone to do it. I'm really not sure why you're getting so upset but I strongly suggest that you try to refocus on reality. You sound worryingly immersed. It is probably a good idea for you to take a break from this and re focus on reality.