butchered lore?

[Llilium]

for RP reasons, i've been trying to study lore on star wars and such throughout the generations and history.

 

all i can say is, how can george lucas allow so much garbage contradictory in this stuff? i understand there is a ton of continuation stuff and non canon continuity and EU (extended universe) stuff, but theres things that seriously cling to established things that make NO sense.

 

now i haven't played force unleashed 1 or 2, but what i've seen on youtube from cinemagics (yes i typo'd that on purpose) was stuff like Starkiller and luke and blah blah having clones or soemthing, and then luke becoming star killer's apprentice on hoth.

 

supposedly this game was done in George lucas' blessing? i tried reading the wiki article on the game to better understand what's going on but all i could see is rediculous slaughter of established lore just so the player could have this SUPER ****** sith guy that literally seems to be undefeatable killing Shaakti, obi wan's ghost, luke skywalker, and Jesus all put together

[Galadorn]

I think you watched cinematics from the wrong game. Either that or I am on the wrong website altogether.

 

Force Unleashed is not the same as Knights of the Old Republic. It's not even close.

[ChampionChains]

This is done a lot in the Star Wars universe. Especially in videogames. They create characters that are capable of force clapping planets in half in an attempt to make the player feel like the most powerful being to ever exist. Then these characters somehow get spproved and become canon. It's really stupid.

 

In the original trilogy, Vaders strength and mastery of the force was established through the use of a few awesome force chokes. Palpatine had lightning. Then along comes "Starkiller" who is Vaders apprentice yet can pull a star destroyer out of orbit and drive it into a planet like a railroad spike. Where Luke (according to canon the most powerful force user ever) struggles to pull a lightsaber to his grasp from like six feet away.

[Tovenar]

You are watching the cinematics from the extra downloadable content which features an alternate universe where Starkiller kills darth vadar, falls to the darkside, and becomes the emperors apprentice.

 

There are then a bunch of missions where in you go through the major plot points of the 3 classic movies but with star killer as the cyborg assassin and "win" it for the darkside. This includes killing Obi, then ALSO killing his force ghost, and finally climaxes with turning Luke to the darkside.

 

You said you did research but all you did was look at a few cinematics and make a judgement. Those extra content were as well done or better then the actual game, and had a massive nostolgia value by allowing one to see a different universe where the darkside wins.

 

It was massively fun.

[Malastare]

now i haven't played force unleashed 1 or 2, but what i've seen on youtube from cinemagics (yes i typo'd that on purpose) was stuff like Starkiller and luke and blah blah having clones or soemthing, and then luke becoming star killer's apprentice on hoth.

 

A moment of researching on my part shows that you are talking about the declared non-canonical, alternate timeline created by the non-canonical darkside story arc of Force Unleashed. Is now a good time to point out that it's non-canonical?

 

The nature of roleplaying (stretching the term for Force Unleashed) means that the story presented has a bunch of different paths which are almost guaranteed to conflict with each other. Normally, Star Wars games have a single canonical path. For Unleashed, that is the Light Side path that has Marek starting and supporting the rebellion.

 

See also KoTOR and KoTOR II. You can find cinematics where Revan and Bastilla both go Dark and take off in a ship together. Obviously, that conflicts with SWTOR. As does the possibility that Revan doesn't help the people in the Undercity take off for the Promised Land... which they obviously do in SWTOR. In KoTOR II, I (occasionally) played the Exile as a guy. Turns out he was actually a she.

 

You see, with games, just because it happens doesn't mean its part of the universe. Only one path is canon.

 

The stuff you're complaining about? Not canon.

[DarkestDaemon]

I think you watched cinematics from the wrong game. Either that or I am on the wrong website altogether.

 

Force Unleashed is not the same as Knights of the Old Republic. It's not even close.

 

Yeah, this is.

 

You're watching cinematics from a game taking place 2-3,000 years later than this takes place.

[Xylex]

for RP reasons, i've been trying to study lore on star wars and such throughout the generations and history.

 

all i can say is, how can george lucas allow so much garbage contradictory in this stuff? i understand there is a ton of continuation stuff and non canon continuity and EU (extended universe) stuff, but theres things that seriously cling to established things that make NO sense.

 

now i haven't played force unleashed 1 or 2, but what i've seen on youtube from cinemagics (yes i typo'd that on purpose) was stuff like Starkiller and luke and blah blah having clones or soemthing, and then luke becoming star killer's apprentice on hoth.

 

supposedly this game was done in George lucas' blessing? i tried reading the wiki article on the game to better understand what's going on but all i could see is rediculous slaughter of established lore just so the player could have this SUPER ****** sith guy that literally seems to be undefeatable killing Shaakti, obi wan's ghost, luke skywalker, and Jesus all put together

 

Just a couple small notes, I am sure some of you will understand and others won't. Have you ever read a comic book? I only ask because they've been using alternate universes forever now to explain all the crazy things they do(Marvel has at least a thousand universes). For canon related to this game forget the movies exist, forget clone wars exists. Focus on the knights of the old republic games and everything on this sites holonet. Just because it is Lucas Arts licensed doesn't make it relevant. Just enjoy it.

 

My 2 cents.

[ErikModi]

A few things to understand:

 

There are a few levels of canon in the Star Wars universe.

 

G-Canon is canon is that which comes from George Lucas himself. The movies, mostly.

 

T-Canon is from TV series, like the Clone Wars, and the live-action Dark Times era series that's been on hold for ages now.

 

C-Canon is from other EU sources, such as comics, books, games, and the like.

 

S-Canon is mostly older Star Wars additions that may or may not quite fit in with current canon, but has yet to be contradicted by other established canon.

 

N-Canon is not canon. This is where your gripes with The Force Unleashed come in. The missions your describing are N-Canon, or to put it in Marvel Comics terms, "What-If?" N-Canon are things that have either been contradicted by higher-level canon, or are written as being non-canon with the intent to explore the aforementioned "What-If?" effect.

 

Secondly, there is the concept of eras. The movies take place in and define their own Eras. The prequels are the Rise of the Empire Era, the original trilogy are the Rebellion Era. Between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope is the Dark Times Era, during which The Force Unleashed is set. Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars: The Old Republic both take place in The Old Republic Era, 4,000 - 1,000 years before the start of The Phantom Menace. In essence, comparing events in The Force Unleashed to events in The Old Republic is like comparing the events of the American Civil War to events in Ancient Egypt.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon

 

Wookieepedia is a FAR better resource for Star Wars lore than YouTube.

Edited January 11, 2012 by ErikModi

[Malastare]

Just a couple small notes, I am sure some of you will understand and others won't. Have you ever read a comic book? I only ask because they've been using alternate universes forever now to explain all the crazy things they do(Marvel has at least a thousand universes). For canon related to this game forget the movies exist, forget clone wars exists. Focus on the knights of the old republic games and everything on this sites holonet. Just because it is Lucas Arts licensed doesn't make it relevant. Just enjoy it.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Not quite... Canon for Star Wars is tiered

 

1. Movies
   
2. TV (Clone Wars, etc)
   
3. Novels & Canon-Path Video Games
   
4. "Extra" comic books, loosely affiliated novels
   
5. Christmas Special
   

 

Items within a tier are supposed to adhere to the canon above them. Thus, for SWTOR, you absolutely can take anything in the movies or TV episodes (Yes... The Clone Wars is canon) as factual canon. And yes, SWTOR is writing Star Wars canon. The story was approved by Lucasarts just like any of the official novels.

 

The issue here is more with the idea of "canon-path" in video games. The rule has been that unless otherwise stated, the canon path is always the Light Side path. Thus, Revan redeemed Bastilla. Mission didn't die on Lehon. Vrook was killed by Darth Traya, not the Exile. The videos noted in the OP are from the non-canonical Dark Site path.

[ChampionChains]

Christmas special canon trumps all other tiers though, right? Right?

[DarkestDaemon]

Christmas special canon trumps all other tiers though, right? Right?

 

Of course. IT'S CHRISTMAS!

[Wheezal]

no...it's LIFE DAY!

[ForceWhisper]

Yea i have played all the games, u can get it confused easy if u dont understand where these games all line up chronologically.

[ChoarkAx]

One thing that puzzles me is why people get upset about Starkiller pulling down a Star Destroyer. One of the first lessons Yoda tries to get into Lukes head is that Size-does-not-matter/size-matters-not. It shouldn't matter if it is a small rock, an asteroid or a Star Destroyer, if you have the time, patience and will, all should be possible in the force.

 

The only reason Luke first failed is because he didn't believe it possible. He struggled with the Light Sabre on Hoth because he was still pretty much untrained at that point.

 

I know, as well, Yoda seemed to struggle with the ship but we hadn't really seen him use the force until then, only training Luke verbally, so its likely his age was already getting to him and was easily fatigued.

 

I don't know, of all the things that people can find to bother them about the game, I always wonder why they pick this.

[ErikModi]

And it's not like he waved his hand and a Star Destroyer fell out of the sky. The Star Destroyer was already crashing, and it's quite clear that it took a LOT of effort. . . it's practically a level in and of itself, gameplay-wise.

[ChampionChains]

One thing that puzzles me is why people get upset about Starkiller pulling down a Star Destroyer. One of the first lessons Yoda tries to get into Lukes head is that Size-does-not-matter/size-matters-not. It shouldn't matter if it is a small rock, an asteroid or a Star Destroyer, if you have the time, patience and will, all should be possible in the force.

 

The only reason Luke first failed is because he didn't believe it possible. He struggled with the Light Sabre on Hoth because he was still pretty much untrained at that point.

 

I know, as well, Yoda seemed to struggle with the ship but we hadn't really seen him use the force until then, only training Luke verbally, so its likely his age was already getting to him and was easily fatigued.

 

I don't know, of all the things that people can find to bother them about the game, I always wonder why they pick this.

 

 

They pick it because it's absolutely ridiculous and completely overshadows and outshines every force action that any other force user has ever performed. Even though he's just a second rate character from a videogame. He pulled a ship...damn near the size of a small moon...out of orbit...from how many miles away?..and drove it into the planet. While Yoda (to use your example) who is supposed to be one of the top like 3 most powerful (if I remember correctly), struggles to lift an x-wing from like 30feet away.

 

He pulled a star destroyer out of space and into a planet. Everyone points that one out because it's so absolutely absurd.

[Jenel]

for RP reasons, i've been trying to study lore on star wars and such throughout the generations and history.

 

all i can say is, how can george lucas allow so much garbage contradictory in this stuff? i understand there is a ton of continuation stuff and non canon continuity and EU (extended universe) stuff, but theres things that seriously cling to established things that make NO sense.

 

now i haven't played force unleashed 1 or 2, but what i've seen on youtube from cinemagics (yes i typo'd that on purpose) was stuff like Starkiller and luke and blah blah having clones or soemthing, and then luke becoming star killer's apprentice on hoth.

 

supposedly this game was done in George lucas' blessing? i tried reading the wiki article on the game to better understand what's going on but all i could see is rediculous slaughter of established lore just so the player could have this SUPER ****** sith guy that literally seems to be undefeatable killing Shaakti, obi wan's ghost, luke skywalker, and Jesus all put together

 

Ok, firstly "how can george lucas allow so much garbage contraditcory in this stuff?" all of the EU stuff is strictly controlled by Lucasfilm and Lucas himself gave the order that if the EU was to happen, each book would need to impact the other, the universe would need to be one and continuous. And this created a great ongoing saga after the movies (for the most part) which gave birth to a huge amount of reference books which encompased the movies and the EU. However Lucas himself decided to spit in the eye of all that hard work keeping the canon continuous when it came to the prequels. There were so many contradictions to actual official publications just to fit things into the movies a lot easier.

 

However, The Force Unleashed and it's sequel is not considered canon, it really is just an excuse to go absolutely crazy with force powers. So yeah, they do seem completely overpowered when it comes to what we see in the movies, but it made for awesome gameplay, I mean who didn't want to throw Tie-Fighters through windows to watch the Stormtroopers get blown out into space? The story for FU should basically be ignored, I mean it's absolute tripe, but that game is all about the freedom to do stuff with the force that you've never seen but would love to.

[ErikModi]

They pick it because it's absolutely ridiculous and completely overshadows and outshines every force action that any other force user has ever performed. Even though he's just a second rate character from a videogame. He pulled a ship...damn near the size of a small moon...out of orbit...from how many miles away?..and drove it into the planet. While Yoda (to use your example) who is supposed to be one of the top like 3 most powerful (if I remember correctly), struggles to lift an x-wing from like 30feet away.

 

He pulled a star destroyer out of space and into a planet. Everyone points that one out because it's so absolutely absurd.

 

Okay, first, a Star Destroyer is a LOT smaller than you seem to think. 1.6 kilomters in point of fact. That's CONSIDERABLY smaller than a "." Second, the Star Destroyer in question was already crashing, and well within the planet's atmosphere. All Starkiller was trying to do was shorten its crash so that it didn't land on his ship, with his friends in it. Thus, it was not "in orbit." As for "how many miles away," not that many. And as I said before, he didn't simply wave his hands and bring it down. It takes the player, and thus the character, several tries and quite some time to actually bring it down.

[masterleonidas]

I don't want to sound like i don't care about the thread, but what does canon mean?

[Meira_Arirai]

Canon, for our purposes here, is used in the same way as the Catholic Church uses it. It means "Something that is agreed upon by the designated authorities to be true/authoritative, especially as contrasted with other, seemingly conflicting options." In a lot of big, decade-spanning intellectual properties, especially ones that encourage participation by authors other than the original one/s, the decisions on which stories reflect things that did or didn't "actually occur" can get pretty elaborate and confusing.

[ErikModi]

"Canon" essentially means it happened in the universe. The levels of canon for Star Wars are there basically to resolve conflicts between sources. I was at a writing seminar at GenCon some years back, with some of the main Star Wars authors, including Timothy Zhan. Someone had related the story of the liason between Bantam Books and Lucasfilm, telling the Star Wars authors, "You're playing with George's toys in his driveway, and you're adding a few of your toys to the pile. When George backs up the truck that is Episode I, he's going to run over a lot of your toys."

 

That's why the different levels of canon were created, to resolve conflicts between what has been added to Star Wars by non-Lucas authors (the "your toys" in the above analogy) and the stuff Lucas himself envisioned. For example, Timothy Zhan originated the name "Coruscant" as the capital world of the New Republic, before that the Empire, and before that the Old Republic. George Lucas, in writing the prequels, could have easily named the planet "Glemnar," or "Philandros," or "Bob," invalidating everything Zhan had written about "Coruscant." And even though Lucas did take the name, he dramatically changed the planet's character from the way Zhan had envisioned it.

 

Canon vs. Non-Canon becomes especially important in the realm of video games. Nearly every Star Wars video game has two endings, a Light Side ending and a Dark Side ending, depending on the choices the character makes. When slotting the video game's story into the canon of the Expanded Universe (the catch-all term for anything that isn't Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, Star Wars: Attack of the Clones, Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, Star Wars: A New Hope, Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back, or Star Wars: Return of the Jedi) one ending or the other must be established as the "correct" ending. Typically, this is the Light Side ending, though I think there might be one or two games where the Dark Side ending is canon.

[Kashaan]

Lucas doesn't give two ****s about EU. In his mind, it's a completely separate universe from his own. He's stated as such. But he tolerates it because he thinks of it as an "alternate reality" to his own vision.

 

As far as within the EU, however, there is relatively low contradiction. There's a few "rogue writers" who write BS crap that goes against established lore, but it's pretty rare.

 

 

May I ask specifically what kind of things you're talking about?

Edited January 12, 2012 by Kashaan

[ErikModi]

While that may be true now, when the EU first really got going, Lucas personally approved everything that went in. I remember Timothy Zhan talking about his original plans for the Thrawn Trilogy, and how the Noghri were supposed be the Sith species, and the insane clone of Joruus C'Baoth was supposed to be an insane clone of Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Lucas shot down those ideas.

 

I also remember Kevin J. Anderson talking about writing the Jedi Academy trilogy, and defining "spice" as a drug, to which the Lucasfilm liason was saying "no, no, Han wasn't a drug dealer." He asked "so, if spice isn't a drug, what is it?" "Well, it's a food additive." "So, Han Solo was dodging Imperial patrols with a hold full of oregano? I don't think so. Let's ask George." They sent a memo to George Lucas, "Is spice a drug?" The reply? "Of COURSE it's a drug!"

[krisslanza]

However, The Force Unleashed and it's sequel is not considered canon, it really is just an excuse to go absolutely crazy with force powers. So yeah, they do seem completely overpowered when it comes to what we see in the movies, but it made for awesome gameplay, I mean who didn't want to throw Tie-Fighters through windows to watch the Stormtroopers get blown out into space? The story for FU should basically be ignored, I mean it's absolute tripe, but that game is all about the freedom to do stuff with the force that you've never seen but would love to.

 

I think that's false if I recall. The "canon" story of TFU is indeed canon. It shapes up how the Rebellion got its symbol and all that.

 

What ISN'T canon is the DLC content of TFU, where you do crazy things like kill Luke. Or kill Han and Chewie. That's in the game purely as a "what-if" scenario.