Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Well if the only way you can wrap your head around something is to insult a group of people …it really speaks volumes about the type of person you are; which is a shame because I have seen you make good points. I’m just going to speak on this once today because I have a lot of meetings. The all or nothing attitude that is being displayed is precisely why the pro meter crowd is being limited. The way it stands now Hardcore guilds that are doing operations as a guild can figure out what their DPS is doing. Bioware feels that pugs are just that Pugs you take the hand you are dealt; if you want a more controlled experience then Raid with your guild, and honestly if you guys stop doing pugs it would actually improve the experience for everyone because there would be a lot less pissing and moaning about perfection. Also I honestly would not look for a 3rd party tool as my gut tells me that you’re not even going to be able to access this information until after the fact; that is basically the way we are going to be doing it on the project that I am involved with but that is beside the point. For good or bad the attitudes that are Bing displayed is why we are at this point; Hardcore Raiders (not all but most) have this “We are the kings and we should rule over the masses” philosophy ; the problem with that is the masses pays the bills and brings in the employee bonuses. I know I have been in the industry for ten years now. Despite what the investor spin says Blizzard has lost a huge chunk of its casual base in the west and they are scrambling (Honestly jobs are on the line) not so much to recoup but just to stop the hemorrhaging. They have found out that ramping up the difficulty was a bad idea; but more importantly they found out that the vast majority of people who left and are leaving are sick of being treated like crap by the Gearscore and Meter folks …their Genie is out of the bottle but they have put together a new team just to put him back in…..that speaks volumes. One thing Bioware is good at and it is noticing not only how their players are behaving but also how the competitions players are behaving; you don’t add Open parsers, gear score and DPS meters when across the street you have literally millions filing out the door because of it; Bioware has seen that their core base can and will leave and honestly at the end of the day it is a numbers game and above all you guys should respect numbers…and there are enough people who will play the Operations and Flashpoints with just a personal combat log…those who leave over it are acceptable losses…though I suspect most will just continue to gripe and keep playing. Anyway that’s pretty much all I have to say on the matter other than any more debate is basically pointless……Bioware really doesn’t do the whoever is loudest on the forums wins thing and it is going to be sometime before we even see the personal combat log….so you might as well enjoy other aspects of the game until you decide if TOR is for you or not. Okay I’m off take care guys and try to be civil none of this stuff is worth being moderated. See you Tomorrow. tl;dr "You guys think you're good, but you're mean! The devs will fix your wagon!" Raiders don't care what you think, but for some reason you feel they should. To you, raiders are evil overlords. To them, you're basically scenery. Edited January 12, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) EDIT: <Snip> Don't worry about it any more. This clearly isn't my sort of place. It's easier just to leave than try to change anyone's mind. Have fun guys. I'm completely done for real this time. Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sendrel Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 No. We should be able agree on the simple solution of having one type of server, and the people who want to use them do and the people who don't want to use them don't... but unfortunately the anti parser/addon/anything crowd is too caught up in controlling how other people play the game. I don't care whether you use addons or not; I expect the same from you. If you aren't willing to do that, then you're being unreasonably selfish. Honestly though, its really not such a bad idea. I'm about as pro-addon, pro-meter, pro-bells and whistles as you can get, but there are times when developers comment publicly on features that intimate that they're holding back because of the potential wailing and gnashing of teeth that would occur if they were to implement said features. If development and administration costs weren't prohibitive (and I have no clue as I don't work in this industry) and/or could be made up for/exceeded by better sub retention, then I don't see a downside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sendrel Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 ...but more importantly they found out that the vast majority of people who left and are leaving are sick of being treated like crap by the Gearscore and Meter folks …their Genie is out of the bottle but they have put together a new team just to put him back in…..that speaks volumes... So I haven't been keeping up with WoW development (quit before Cata launched), but I'm curious how or what source of information you used to arrive at that conclusion. It just seems like more 'make claim without justification and base conclusion on said claim', type of argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskevosi Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) EDIT: <Snip> Don't worry about it any more. This clearly isn't my sort of place. It's easier just to leave than try to change anyone's mind. Have fun guys. I'm completely done for real this time. Best of luck AlpsStranger. Shame that something this small is such a make or break for you. For me, just to be in the world of Star Wars is enough... Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guided_by_voices Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 There have been multiple threads with people abusing and insulting the people who want them, but not actually presenting any reasons why not to have them. The closest people have come is 'some players are *****'. The issue with that argument is that those people will be ***** without the meters too, so instead of getting berated because you have lower output than them, they will berate you because they don't like youe choice of enhancement, or your mask looks silly. Removing the tool doesnt remove the users, it just punishes people who want it for a purpose. it think's it fair to say both sides have not been playing nice in terms of insults. the fact that haven't been able to see one valid reason not to have them tells me you most likely skimed the posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 it think's it fair to say both sides have not been playing nice in terms of insults. the fact that haven't been able to see one valid reason not to have them tells me you most likely skimed the posts. No, I've read the posts (most of them) in depth. From anecdotes, to assumptions, to hearsay and conjecture. They all revolve around one thing (If they arent insults or implications that people are sub-standard human beings/players). "Someones feelings MIGHT get hurt at some point IF they are both underperforming AND the group or leader is feeling like a bit of a douche" Asside from that, the only other argument I've seen is that "Add-ons kill MMO games". Which is a completely bizzarre claim if you look at the number of MMO's currently around that use them. I'll admit there have been one or two nasty 'pro-meter' posts, but in general, they come after 5 or 6 back and forth posts with the 'pro-meter' guy presenting his case and trying to argue his point, while the 'anti-meter' guy hurls abuse at him, from calling him a fascist, to a bad player, to a terrible human being, to ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enginer Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 As a raid leader of a guild who is clearing all of NM expect SOA (Who is currently unkillable) I will be all over the DPS meters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskevosi Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) As a raid leader of a guild who is clearing all of NM expect SOA (Who is currently unkillable) I will be all over the DPS meters! All over what DPS meters? Bioware seem to have said that they are implementing combat logs for your own performance. Which indicates that you will not be able to see others performance. The purpose of this thread was should they be Private or Open to all to see. Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jettemakaron Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 They should be open, best raiding tool ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Can someone answer this question for me, people who say they want to participate with groups they know perform are told to only group with guild mates (still doesn't provide facts) and yet it's un acceptable for pugs to want X amount of dps and that casuals should only group with their friends and guild. Personally I want meters I don't care if they are toggle able or if it's guild only but my enjoyment is increased by being able to maximize my playtime with my friends who are all mature enough to handle meters. All the meter does is allow us to analyze why we failed nobody has ever said omg you only did 3k dps but we downed the boss, it just doesn't happen in a group of people you would want to routinely play with. (though sometimes in aoe pulls we would try to see how big we could get someones dps because 100k is pretty cool) On a side note most of us people in guilds that raid/want meters are annoyed by the people spamming it too, or the people who are like zomg i'm on top of the dps chart did you see that did you see that. When we look at combat logs (through addons like recount) we're looking for things like who didn't switch to adds nearly as often, who didn't interrupt, what did incoming dps/incoming heals look like on the tank, how much damage was going to the group as a whole during periods of time. Many of the things we want to see are not something that has value when we look at it alone. Most guilds that arn't going for world/server firsts tend to be very friendly to members (at least in my experience) and will work with them to improve their performance, if you can't take someone saying player X is going to work with you to try and improve your dps maybe challenge group play isn't for you but that's your choice. Also sometimes you might be asked to sit for a boss maybe it's a mechanic or maybe it's your gear or your skill it happens, but I guarantee if you stick it out the guild will take you to down that boss later because one it's on farm lets face it people need breaks and there will be plenty of people willing to sit for you. I guess what i'm trying to say is as a community lets try to work to make everybodys gaming experience better instead of saying things in absolutes "WE NEED METERS", "METERS RUIN GAMES". Everyone seems to say that if you don't like a certain gameplay style you should go guild with people that play that way so why not start with giving guild access to meters, heck it can even be tied to rank with yes can see no can't see. or a no meter guild flag that's toggled on creation. I think most of the problems that people have where it's black and white yes or no can be solved, calling each other names over it isn't going to solve anything. If you wanna say I need a crutch because I wanna play this way thats cool but that doesn't mean anything if bioware's goal is too let more people see content then shouldn't giving people some crutches be in their best interest, wouldn't that be the casual friendly way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskevosi Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) They should be open, best raiding tool ever. I love these posts. Thanks Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airinya Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Glad that combat logs will, from the looks of it, be personal and not something that will be externalized to obnoxious meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) All over what DPS meters? Bioware seem to have said that they are implementing combat logs for your own performance. Which indicates that you will not be able to see others performance. The purpose of this thread was should they be Private or Open to all to see. Naw. Bioware never said it was going to be personal combat logs. Read the post again. He also mentions "various ways". They said they are working on something that will measure your personal performance. To me, this sounds more like an in-game tool that shows your performance only. They already confirmed full combat logs for raiding anyway. So yea, I don't see the point of this thread lol. Edited January 12, 2012 by Hairless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangarrage Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 As a raid leader of a guild who is clearing all of NM expect SOA (Who is currently unkillable) I will be all over the DPS meters! So you killed everything except an "unkillable boss" without meters? So you do not need meters in this game and you just basically proved it A DPS meter also isnt going to help you kill an unkillable boss btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 So you killed everything except an "unkillable boss" without meters? So you do not need meters in this game and you just basically proved it A DPS meter also isnt going to help you kill an unkillable boss btw Because you can not possibly grasp the idea that there exist people and guilds of different skill level. Just because some amazing guild did it, everyone can too right? Oh man, I can't wait to raid with my average guild and kill all the bosses in nightmare mode next week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahana Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Because you can not possibly grasp the idea that there exist people and guilds of different skill level. Just because some amazing guild did it, everyone can too right? Oh man, I can't wait to raid with my average guild and kill all the bosses in nightmare mode next week! How can you even be playing.. I thought you charged back you game with your credit card company??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 How can you even be playing.. I thought you charged back you game with your credit card company??? I have multiple accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airinya Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Because you can not possibly grasp the idea that there exist people and guilds of different skill level. Just because some amazing guild did it, everyone can too right? Oh man, I can't wait to raid with my average guild and kill all the bosses in nightmare mode next week! A meter is going to change your guild from average to amazing? Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalden Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Naw. Bioware never said it was going to be personal combat logs. Read the post again. He also mentions "various ways". They said they are working on something that will measure your personal performance. To me, this sounds more like an in-game tool that shows your performance only. They already confirmed full combat logs for raiding anyway. So yea, I don't see the point of this thread lol. By Georg "Observer" Zoeller: Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance. Notice the emphasis on your. It makes it pretty clear to me. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskevosi Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Naw. Bioware never said it was going to be personal combat logs. Read the post again. He also mentions "various ways". They said they are working on something that will measure your personal performance. To me, this sounds more like an in-game tool that shows your performance only. They already confirmed full combat logs for raiding anyway. So yea, I don't see the point of this thread lol. Naw, you've read it wrong or not read it: Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance. Here is the link if you need it: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443 The your bit at the bottom is in italics (in his post as quoting a post is always italic). Clear as day. Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 A meter is going to change your guild from average to amazing? Sad. Nope. But it's going to help us progress through bosses. Have you never raided or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airinya Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Nope. But it's going to help us progress through bosses. Have you never raided or something? I've raided in EQ, EQOA, Final Fantasy XI, and WoW. Have you only raided in WoW, where you have your hand held like a carebear with large flashing words saying "MOVE NOW!" or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TItanten Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Nope. But it's going to help us progress through bosses. Have you never raided or something? I mean if you need help that bad why don't you just whine till they nerf the bosses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airinya Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I mean if you need help that bad why don't you just whine till they nerf the bosses... He probably will, "OMG we can't clear the raid in the first few weeks because there are gear checks and no meters so we can't tell who in our raid is only auto attacking!! QQ, QQ" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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