Private combat logs?

[Hairless]

So if someone is lets say handicaped in any way... but still wishes to play the game and help in any way he can... he will be kicked for Sucking - Slacking - AFKing etc etc ... And this in your mind is the righr thing to do.

 

Of course it is. He's simply not good enough for what's he's trying to do. He needs to go do something that suits his skill level. Nobody is obligated to carry someone. He needs to play with players who are WILLING to carry him. You can't demand that everyone be willing to carry him.

Wait, why do I even bother arguing with dimster. lolololol

[Iskevosi]

So I can't speak in the abstract?

 

AlpsStranger, you win no friends with your signature or your tone.

 

You make valid points and I accept them. I understand why you want them. I also agree with dimster about anyone that is handicaped, forcing them to match your high set of standards and rules of play is unfair.

 

Everyone, however good or bad has the right to play and attempt all content. Bioware must make sure that they make this fair for all play types and not just meet your needs.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi

[AlpsStranger]

So you think there is only one way, your way?

 

Not every situation has a reasonable alternative. So, in the case of SWTOR and combat logs, yes I do.

 

 

And isn't WoW a clone of another game, probably one that didn't have combat logs or parsing.

 

WoW was Blizzard's attempt to streamline and improve Everquest. I seem to recall Everquest having combat logs ages ago. I'm open to correction on this, but I swear I recall EQ log parsing more than a decade ago.

 

Either way there are clearly two types of players here, some that want the logs and some that don't.

 

I can't really disagree on this point, now can I

 

The point is Bioware seem to be implementing a system where you will be able to see your own data and not others. This would mean even third party parsers would not get you the totals you so desire.

 

This is a silly and incoherent solution. That's my basic argument. I'm actually saying that absolutely no logging makes more sense. My hierarchy of preference is something like Full Logging>No Logging>"Private" Logging for reasons that I've stated earlier in this thread.

 

You need to understand that even if folks don't share their totals, they in themselves are playing a game that they want to achieve goals in, like taking down Boss mobs and collecting rewards. They know that they are not going to achieve this if they slack.

 

Not true. If a single person slacks they will benefit. Maximum advantage situation would be one "slacker" being carried by 3/7/15 "workers."

 

There will only ever be a few slackers not the large number that you seem to think there will be.

 

I completely and totally disagree with this assessment.

[AlpsStranger]

AlpsStranger, you win no friends with your signature or your tone.

 

You make valid points and I accept them. I understand why you want them. I also dimster about anyone that is handicaped, forcing them to match your high set of standards and rules of play is unfair.

 

Everyone, however good or bad has the right to play and attempt all content. Bioware must make sure that they make this fair for all play types and not just meet your needs.

 

If a person was handicapped and generally helpful I would probably not hold them to the same standard as an able bodied person.

 

Look, the things I say have more to do with this argument specifically. You would never suspect my identity if you grouped with me in game. I'm actually quite nice.

 

EDIT: I think the signature has run its course anyhow.

Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Devorin_Sargothi]

Of course it is. He's simply not good enough for what's he's trying to do. He needs to go do something that suits his skill level. Nobody is obligated to carry someone. He needs to play with players who are WILLING to carry him. You can't demand that everyone be willing to carry him.

Wait, why do I even bother arguing with dimster. lolololol

 

Not true, you're free to demand anything you want from other players.

 

I demand a pony!

 

See? Easy.

[Sendrel]

I have already suggested a separate type of Add - on - enabled servers where people can play and enjoy parsing BY CHOICE while others stay in their Add - on - dissabled servers and everyone is happy... One side gets combat log and add on support and the other side can Slack and Suck in private and have noone husle them over that

 

I know this is your really awkward way of trying to insult me (better luck next time champ!), but I actually don't think its such a bad idea to have separate ruleset servers for addon vs. non-addon users as long as the only difference in server types is that of addon usage. I never really understood why there were so few different selections for server rulesets. I know they cost money/time to design and administer, but it just seems like really good ROI if you subscribe to the 'more options = happier customers = greater sub retention" philosophy.

[dimster]

Of course it is. He's simply not good enough for what's he's trying to do. He needs to go do something that suits his skill level. Nobody is obligated to carry someone. He needs to play with players who are WILLING to carry him. You can't demand that everyone be willing to carry him.

Wait, why do I even bother arguing with dimster. lolololol

 

You shouldn't bother, especially when you can't really argue due to lack of argument or point But please keep trying for the LULZ

[dimster]

I know this is your really awkward way of trying to insult me (better luck next time champ!), but I actually don't think its such a bad idea to have separate ruleset servers for addon vs. non-addon users as long as the only difference in server types is that of addon usage. I never really understood why there were so few different selections for server rulesets. I know they cost money/time to design and administer, but it just seems like really good ROI if you subscribe to the 'more options = happier customers = greater sub retention" philosophy.

 

Actually no i don't want to insult anyone. What i do want is to raise awarness and stop the community from being split to pro - add on and against add on and unite them in demanding add on enabled servers that people can choose to play on or not...

[aimbotcfg]

So if someone is lets say handicaped in any way... but still wishes to play the game and help in any way he can... he will be kicked for Sucking - Slacking - AFKing etc etc ... And this in your mind is the righr thing to do... and you wish bioware to provide you with tools so that you can provide badges and pats in the back to all fellow LEET Uberplayers and kick all scrubs... And all that so that you can migrate your uber LEET friends from WoW and play exactly the same game but in Star Wars setting... good luck with that...

 

So, In this post we have:

 

*Groundless emotional blackmail.

*Assosiating the request with wow when its actually a fairly common feature of a lot on MMO's

 

Still no actual reason to not have them, other than being scared that you cant be carried through content. Yet its the pro-meter people who are getting all the stick for being a-holes?

 

Classy guy, classy argument.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Parali
bad quote, response to bad quote

[Iskevosi]

If a person was handicapped and generally helpful I would probably not hold them to the same standard as an able bodied person.

 

Look, the things I say have more to do with this argument specifically. You would never suspect my identity if you grouped with me in game. I'm actually quite nice.

 

EDIT: I think the signature has run its course anyhow.

 

 

If you are nice and I am not saying you aren't, but you come across very aggressive with your signature and tone.

 

 

So you are saying that nearly every group or raid formation there are always Slackers. I don't believe this number is as high as you believe it to be and so are making such a fuss for no real reason.

 

I also think that Bioware doing this half on half off combat log is a waste, just switch it off altogether. But it's coming, so all I said at the start, their should be a choice.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi

[Hairless]

Actually no i don't want to insult anyone. What i do want is to raise awarness and stop the community from being split to pro - add on and against add on and unite them in demanding add on enabled servers that people can choose to play on or not...

 

lol. Stop with all your BS about improving the community.

It's incredibly obvious from all your posts that you are just immensely afraid of other people seeing your performance.

[dimster]

So, In this post we have:

 

*Groundless emotional blackmail.

*Charachter attacks (Implying some kind of Nazi assotiation or fascist thinking)

*Assosiating the request with wow when its actually a fairly common feature of a lot on MMO's

 

Still no actual reason to not have them, other than being scared that you cant be carried through content. Yet its the pro-meter people who are getting all the stick for being a-holes?

 

Classy guy, classy argument.

 

This whole discussion is becoming too personal and missing the point. Can we agree on the simple solution of having two types of servers, one add - on - enabled and one not and let players choose without trying to impose a solution that works for you and your friends?

[dimster]

lol. Stop with all your BS about improving the community.

It's incredibly obvious from all your posts that you are just immensely afraid of other people seeing your performance.

 

read post history, count number of posts about sepate server types, understand that this is what i am advocating, be nice, thank you

[mangarrage]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

Right there at the bottom.

 

 

 

If you want to keep your combat log private, that's fine. I want the option to make mine public. I have nothing to hide. I want people to trust me, and combat logs give them the data to do so.

 

It's fine to feel a little put upon or even threatened by the criticism of others. People can be harsh. You paid your money, and you don't care to deal with criticism, that's fine.

 

But I'm the one paying MY money, and I insist on having hard data on what's going on in my group. I actively seek feedback from my teammates. If you're not interested in this kind of activity, we don't ever have to group, play, or even speak together.

 

I'm fine with that.

 

No offense but you have serious issues.

 

Do people even read what they write?

Do you not think you sound like a whiny 11 year old?

"I insist on having hard data on what's going on in my group"

 

 

You paid or pay a sub knowing that it wasnt there and now you "insist" on having it if youre paying money

 

cmon man

[aimbotcfg]

This whole discussion is becoming too personal and missing the point. Can we agree on the simple solution of having two types of servers, one add - on - enabled and one not and let players choose without trying to impose a solution that works for you and your friends?

 

We are trying to get a solution that works for everyone... Having the option to use meters.

 

If you don't want to use them, don't use them.

 

Not having the option to use them at all caters to you and your friends, not everyone.

[Jett-Rinn]

Not having a combat log whatsoever is a valid, if painfully quirky and ill-advised, approach. The "private combat log" abomination really only benefits slackers. I really can't wrap my head around seeing it any other way.

 

Well if the only way you can wrap your head around something is to insult a group of people …it really speaks volumes about the type of person you are; which is a shame because I have seen you make good points.

 

I’m just going to speak on this once today because I have a lot of meetings. The all or nothing attitude that is being displayed is precisely why the pro meter crowd is being limited. The way it stands now Hardcore guilds that are doing operations as a guild can figure out what their DPS is doing. Bioware feels that pugs are just that Pugs you take the hand you are dealt; if you want a more controlled experience then Raid with your guild, and honestly if you guys stop doing pugs it would actually improve the experience for everyone because there would be a lot less pissing and moaning about perfection.

 

Also I honestly would not look for a 3rd party tool as my gut tells me that you’re not even going to be able to access this information until after the fact; that is basically the way we are going to be doing it on the project that I am involved with but that is beside the point.

 

For good or bad the attitudes that are Bing displayed is why we are at this point; Hardcore Raiders (not all but most) have this “We are the kings and we should rule over the masses” philosophy ; the problem with that is the masses pays the bills and brings in the employee bonuses. I know I have been in the industry for ten years now. Despite what the investor spin says Blizzard has lost a huge chunk of its casual base in the west and they are scrambling (Honestly jobs are on the line) not so much to recoup but just to stop the hemorrhaging.

 

They have found out that ramping up the difficulty was a bad idea; but more importantly they found out that the vast majority of people who left and are leaving are sick of being treated like crap by the Gearscore and Meter folks …their Genie is out of the bottle but they have put together a new team just to put him back in…..that speaks volumes.

 

One thing Bioware is good at and it is noticing not only how their players are behaving but also how the competitions players are behaving; you don’t add Open parsers, gear score and DPS meters when across the street you have literally millions filing out the door because of it; Bioware has seen that their core base can and will leave and honestly at the end of the day it is a numbers game and above all you guys should respect numbers…and there are enough people who will play the Operations and Flashpoints with just a personal combat log…those who leave over it are acceptable losses…though I suspect most will just continue to gripe and keep playing.

 

Anyway that’s pretty much all I have to say on the matter other than any more debate is basically pointless……Bioware really doesn’t do the whoever is loudest on the forums wins thing and it is going to be sometime before we even see the personal combat log….so you might as well enjoy other aspects of the game until you decide if TOR is for you or not.

 

Okay I’m off take care guys and try to be civil none of this stuff is worth being moderated. See you Tomorrow.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Jett-Rinn

[dimster]

We are trying to get a solution that works for everyone... Having the option to use meters.

 

If you don't want to use them, don't use them.

 

Not having the option to use them at all caters to you and your friends, not everyone.

 

Then we agree, a choice of whether combat log exist or is private or is shared. Your suggestion is that is enabled by a togle, mine is that we have sepate servers... Is it the same thing or not?

[Iskevosi]

dimster makes a point about different Server types, but I wonder how practical this really is?

 

How much extra work would this cause Bioware and would they have to create new servers that had this Add-on functionality and move those that wanted to use it about.

 

Would we then end up with Server merges to re-balance the population?

Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi

[ferroz]

This whole discussion is becoming too personal and missing the point. Can we agree on the simple solution of having two types of servers, one add - on - enabled and one not and let players choose without trying to impose a solution that works for you and your friends?

No. We should be able agree on the simple solution of having one type of server, and the people who want to use them do and the people who don't want to use them don't... but unfortunately the anti parser/addon/anything crowd is too caught up in controlling how other people play the game.

 

I don't care whether you use addons or not; I expect the same from you. If you aren't willing to do that, then you're being unreasonably selfish.

Edited January 12, 2012 by ferroz

[guided_by_voices]

So, In this post we have:

 

Still no actual reason to not have them, other than being scared that you cant be carried through content. Yet its the pro-meter people who are getting all the stick for being a-holes?

 

Classy guy, classy argument.

 

there have been countless posts in multiple threads with reasons why not to include them. The big difference here is many anti users have acknowledged that they are useful but the bad > good. The pro user refuses to see any bad at all.

 

meters haven't stopped players from being carried in wow what makes you think it will here, with an even smaller player base?

[Vydor_HC]

dimster makes a point about different Server types, but I wonder how practical this really is?

 

How much extra work would this cause Bioware and would they have to create new servers that had this Add-on functionality and move those that wanted to use it about.

 

Would we then end up with Server merges to re-balance the population?

 

It all depends on how they built their engine. It could be as simple as a little configuration issue, or it could be so complex it wouldn't be worth it.

 

The issue would come down to maintenance and maintaining two sets of development paths.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

I wonder what kind of griefing is possible for want of the oversight provided by parsing. You could break cc and blame it on others. You could stand in all the aoe you could find and soak up heals. While you're at it, could look busy by spamming your own heals on uninjured players. Make sure you blow your interrupt on mobs that aren't casting, of course. While you're at it, don't use any mods or armoring in your gear. I bet "99%" of people don't want to inspect other players either.

 

Maybe there's something to this having more fun without parsers after all.

 

EDIT: I forgot, never spend your talent points. Your spec, or lack of it, is entirely your business.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi

[Ganelon]

No. We should be able agree on the simple solution of having one type of server, and the people who want to use them do and the people who don't want to use them don't... but unfortunately the anti parser/addon/anything crowd is too caught up in controlling how other people play the game.

 

I don't care whether you use addons or not; I expect the same from you. If you aren't willing to do that, then you're being unreasonably selfish.

 

This. A million times this.

 

These discussions around addons, combat logs, macros and LFG tools are completely pointless, neither side is going to change their opinion. The only reasonable solution is to make them all available, and let each one decide if they want to use them or not. That's the only way each and everyone one of the players can enjoy the game the way they want and have every right to.

[Hairless]

People who are "abused" by meters are an EXTREME minority.

 

The average player doesn't get abused by meters. The average player doesn't mind meters.

 

It's just that one person in the raid who occasionally gets kicked from pug raids for underperforming too much or causing wipes.

 

Guess what? The other 7 or 15 benefited from it.

 

So not having meters to cater to these extreme bads is just a dumb idea.

[aimbotcfg]

there have been countless posts in multiple threads with reasons why not to include them. The big difference here is many anti users have acknowledged that they are useful but the bad > good. The pro user refuses to see any bad at all.

 

meters haven't stopped players from being carried in wow what makes you think it will here, with an even smaller player base?

 

There have been multiple threads with people abusing and insulting the people who want them, but not actually presenting any reasons why not to have them. The closest people have come is 'some players are *****'.

 

The issue with that argument is that those people will be ***** without the meters too, so instead of getting berated because you have lower output than them, they will berate you because they don't like youe choice of enhancement, or your mask looks silly. Removing the tool doesnt remove the users, it just punishes people who want it for a purpose.