AlpsStranger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I must admit that I would prefer them to not have put any combat logs in at all. But if they are I want them to be private, not with a toggle option to make them Public, Your demand that I have no right to make my log public is unreasonable. I have every right to share that information. It is akin to you claiming you have the right to prevent me from revealing my name or address. No, this is not acceptable. I'm willing to allow people the "option" of having a private log, but I have every right to have my log visible. If you think you can't get a group with your log hidden then you don't really believe you are the majority. At that point the "no-parse" people are essentially a special interest group forcing their will on everyone else. Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskevosi Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Your demand that I have no right to make my log public is unreasonable. I have every right to share that information. It is akin to you claiming you have the right to prevent me from revealing my name or address. No, this is not acceptable. I'm willing to allow people the "option" of having a private log, but I have every right to have my log visible. And with your right/demand to have an option to make it public, you will force others that you group with to share that information too. In the long run having the effect that people and by the sounds of it Bioware are trying to avoid. Tell me Sir, if there were a few in a group with you that did not want to share would that bother you? Your answer to this will be give us all a greater insight to the person that is AlpsStranger. Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) And with your right/demand to have an option to make it public, you will force others that you group with to share that information too. In the long run having the effect that people and by the sounds of it Bioware are trying to avoid. Tell me Sir, if there were a few in a group with you that did not want to share would that bother you? Your answer to this will be give us all a greater insight to the person that is AlpsStranger. For me, it would depend on how the group is doing. If did poorly, and we all were sharing information, we could find out the problem. If a player was slacking and refused to toe the line, I would vote to boot him. If we did poorly, and nobody shared info, I would have to rely on the honesty of other players. If the weak link didn't man up and admit he's having problems, I would vote to kick the entire group by leaving it. This won't solve their problem, but it does solve mine. Edited January 12, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Tell me Sir, if there were a few in a group with you that did not want to share would that bother you? Your answer to this will be give us all a greater insight to the person that is AlpsStranger. I won't group with anyone who refuses to share their combat data. Why do I not have that right? Why do you have the right to group with *me* if I don't want you to? Your answer to this will be give us all a greater insight to the person that is Iskevosi. Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I won't group with anyone who refuses to share their combat data. Why do I not have that right? Why do you have the right to group with *me* if I don't want you to? Your answer to this will be give us all a greater insight to the person that is Iskevosi. It's not about your rights. It's about theirs. Only fair, right? Edited January 12, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It's not about your rights. It's about theirs. Only fair, right? Oh right, forgot. I don't have any rights because I'm prejudged to be a jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Your demand that I have no right to make my log public is unreasonable. I have every right to share that information. It is akin to you claiming you have the right to prevent me from revealing my name or address. No, this is not acceptable. I'm willing to allow people the "option" of having a private log, but I have every right to have my log visible. If you think you can't get a group with your log hidden then you don't really believe you are the majority. At that point the "no-parse" people are essentially a special interest group forcing their will on everyone else. Actually the ''Yes-parse'' people are a vocal minority thet is trying to imporse parsing in a game that is not designed with parsing in mind (No combat log). People who enjoy the game with no parsing will not tolerate it becoming WoW 2 in space full of faceroll addons and Gearscore E-peen exebitionism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskevosi Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I won't group with anyone who refuses to share their combat data. Why do I not have that right? Why do you have the right to group with *me* if I don't want you to? Your answer to this will be give us all a greater insight to the person that is Iskevosi. You've shown the main reason why having an option to share logs will end up with a situation of forcing all to do this. Meaning no one is then allowed to keep their logs private as intended. This is why logs should not be in at all or just for private use. Everyone has a right to play the game they want and not be force by others to comply. And no one has called you a Jerk. You make valid points, but you seem head strong on one solution and do not appear to see any other side of the coin. Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 There are no rights when it comes to this sort of thing. Alps dude, I'm on your side, but you cannot try to fix the willfully ignorant. We'll get a combat log eventually and once we have it people will just build a 3rd party parser that can hook up via a private channel so that it can broadcast for us. Let them do their thing, there's no point in trying to convince them otherwise. What tools Bioware doesn't give us we will build ourselves, just like the old days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sendrel Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Actually the ''Yes-parse'' people are a vocal minority thet is trying to imporse parsing in a game that is not designed with parsing in mind (No combat log). People who enjoy the game with no parsing will not tolerate it becoming WoW 2 in space full of faceroll addons and Gearscore E-peen exebitionism... Just wanted to comment on some misinformation. The combat log exists, its just not functional currently. It worked fine during beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 There are no rights when it comes to this sort of thing. Alps dude, I'm on your side, but you cannot try to fix the willfully ignorant. We'll get a combat log eventually and once we have it people will just build a 3rd party parser that can hook up via a private channel so that it can broadcast for us. Let them do their thing, there's no point in trying to convince them otherwise. What tools Bioware doesn't give us we will build ourselves, just like the old days. Eventually we will get goldfarmers and spammers and scammers and botters which by that logic should be given by bioware since we will eventually build ourselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 And no one has called you a Jerk. You make valid points, but you seem head strong on one solution and do not appear to see any other side of the coin. The other side of the coin is mostly fear mongering. I don't actually think there is another side. If this was some kind of Sandbox MMORPG, or at least not a WoW clone, I wouldn't care. I didn't mind not having combat logging when I was playing Global Agenda or Planetside, for instance. It works for the type of game that SWTOR is. A male dog doesn't become female when you neuter it, and a WoW clone doesn't become something new when you cut its balls off either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Oh right, forgot. I don't have any rights because I'm prejudged to be a jerk. Well look at your signature.....calling people names...I would say that isn't pre-judging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Just wanted to comment on some misinformation. The combat log exists, its just not functional currently. It worked fine during beta. Combat log exists obviusly (eg WZ action reports etc) the discussion is about making it vidible so it can be parsed (in game or externaly) and the result that combat log parsing will have on the community... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excedrin Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I must admit that I would prefer them to not have put any combat logs in at all. But if they are I want them to be private, not with a toggle option to make them Public, else groups will be forced by some hot heads that they must post their results or "you can't play with me". And god forbid someone doesn't want to play with you. What a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) There are no rights when it comes to this sort of thing. Alps dude, I'm on your side, but you cannot try to fix the willfully ignorant. We'll get a combat log eventually and once we have it people will just build a 3rd party parser that can hook up via a private channel so that it can broadcast for us. Let them do their thing, there's no point in trying to convince them otherwise. What tools Bioware doesn't give us we will build ourselves, just like the old days. They'll probably think we're exploiting. We'll be those strange people talking in some strange language, up to no good. They'll follow us around fleet, watching and leering angrily, wondering what horrors we have planned. Of course we'll be reported before our fiendish plan can be executed, because in a post-Cataclysm world, you have to be ready to do your duty and stop threats before they happen! We have to think about the children! Edited January 12, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Combat log exists obviusly (eg WZ action reports etc) the discussion is about making it vidible so it can be parsed (in game or externaly) and the result that combat log parsing will have on the community... It only has "negative" result on the one bad player in the raid who got kicked. It doesn't have any negative result on the 7 or 15 others remaining in the raid. It actually helps them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Well look at your signature.....calling people names...I would say that isn't pre-judging. Not having a combat log whatsoever is a valid, if painfully quirky and ill-advised, approach. The "private combat log" abomination really only benefits slackers. I really can't wrap my head around seeing it any other way. Edited January 12, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) The game will function perfectly without group wide combat logs available for parsing. Raids will be a bit more difficult for raiders, but doable and in the end make the raiders better players without having to rely on log parsing to figure encounters out. There is absolutely no need for them to be in the game except to make things easier on a handful of players. Edited January 12, 2012 by Vydor_HC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskevosi Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) The other side of the coin is mostly fear mongering. I don't actually think there is another side. If this was some kind of Sandbox MMORPG, or at least not a WoW clone, I wouldn't care. I didn't mind not having combat logging when I was playing Global Agenda or Planetside, for instance. It works for the type of game that SWTOR is. A male dog doesn't become female when you neuter it, and a WoW clone doesn't become something new when you cut its balls off either. So you think there is only one way, your way? And isn't WoW a clone of another game, probably one that didn't have combat logs or parsing. Either way there are clearly two types of players here, some that want the logs and some that don't. The point is Bioware seem to be implementing a system where you will be able to see your own data and not others. This would mean even third party parsers would not get you the totals you so desire. You need to understand that even if folks don't share their totals, they in themselves are playing a game that they want to achieve goals in, like taking down Boss mobs and collecting rewards. They know that they are not going to achieve this if they slack. There will only ever be a few slackers not the large number that you seem to think there will be. Edited January 12, 2012 by Iskevosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealAeiouy Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Your demand that I have no right to make my log public is unreasonable. I have every right to share that information. It is akin to you claiming you have the right to prevent me from revealing my name or address. No, this is not acceptable. I'm willing to allow people the "option" of having a private log, but I have every right to have my log visible. If you think you can't get a group with your log hidden then you don't really believe you are the majority. At that point the "no-parse" people are essentially a special interest group forcing their will on everyone else. You don't even have a character to have a log. You deleted them all and canceled, remember? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) It only has "negative" result on the one bad player in the raid who got kicked. It doesn't have any negative result on the 7 or 15 others remaining in the raid. It actually helps them. So if someone is lets say handicaped in any way... but still wishes to play the game and help in any way he can... he will be kicked for Sucking - Slacking - AFKing etc etc ... And this in your mind is the righr thing to do... and you wish bioware to provide you with tools so that you can provide badges and pats in the back to all fellow LEET Uberplayers and kick all scrubs... And all that so that you can migrate your uber LEET friends from WoW and play exactly the same game but in Star Wars setting... good luck with that... Edited January 12, 2012 by Parali offensive "Aryan" reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sendrel Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Combat log exists obviusly (eg WZ action reports etc) the discussion is about making it vidible so it can be parsed (in game or externaly) and the result that combat log parsing will have on the community... May want to rethink you phrase things in the future. The game was absolutely created with parsing in mind as there is a combat log. The fact that its currently non-functional is relevant in that you made a statement of fact that was demonstrably false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 You don't even have a character to have a log. You deleted them all and canceled, remember? So I can't speak in the abstract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 May want to rethink you phrase things in the future. The game was absolutely created with parsing in mind as there is a combat log. The fact that its currently non-functional is relevant in that you made a statement of fact that was demonstrably false. I have already suggested a separate type of Add - on - enabled servers where people can play and enjoy parsing BY CHOICE while others stay in their Add - on - dissabled servers and everyone is happy... One side gets combat log and add on support and the other side can Slack and Suck in private and have noone husle them over that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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