Sendrel Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 All we have is interpretations. I don't know you from a hole in a sock. lol. I'm not writing in Sanskrit. Its definitely "NEED" and "WANT". People have raided just fine in this game without any type of combat log whatsoever. Its proven that it is not NEEDED. People WANT them for a multitude of reasons. This is the point that you're so determined to miss. I've conceded that, in the most technical sense of the word, they're not 'needed'. Its an idiotic argument because if enough people want a feature, the developers aren't likely to make a distinction between want and need (as defined by the luddites here). So, again, if it helps you, just mentally replace every instance of the word 'need' with 'want' and maybe the discussion can be about something other than semantics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHats Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I do think we will see some returning of Nightmare modes.. I hope so. A buddy of mine is in another guild on my server. Said it took them about 4 hours total to clear it lol. First time in. Sad. Sad. Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jHats Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Once they get the meters, they'll cry for Boss ability info.. For want of a nail... lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 No doubt. Most fail to realise a simple concept. There are a lot of "kids" who are try-hards that go all out on the meters.... to only pull agro or not move out of boss abilities and cause a wipe. There are a lot of "players" that might bring a % or 2 less DPS than the top guy, but they are more attentive to detail and dont stress the healers out by not moving or controlling their threat. (See what I did there Devorin_Sargothi?) Damage Meters , Gear score does not a great / bad player make. And there are more players who do 1/3 of the damage they could be doing, while still not moving out of aoes. The evil damage hog meter abuser is a rare beast compared to the random players who simply don't know what's going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Once they get the meters, they'll cry for Boss ability info.. Yeah when Wulfgar fought Icingdeath did he have any of that crap? "Oh sorry Drizzt...I can't do this Dungeon....Bruenor didn't put a DPS meter on Agis Fang and I have no Idea when his rage timer is going to pop!" Edited January 11, 2012 by Jett-Rinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) All we have is interpretations. I don't know you from a hole in a sock. lol. Its definitely "NEED" and "WANT". People have raided just fine in this game without any type of combat log whatsoever. Its proven that it is not NEEDED. People WANT them for a multitude of reasons. To maximize their potential To belittle others To assure only the top DPSers/Healers are in group To set false walls in place which dont exist in this particular game The bad outweighs the good. Why must you worry about everyone else. Worry about yourself. If you spend more time worrying about others, there is no time for self reflection or imporving. Use your logs and be the best you can and hope the others do as well. At the end of the day, if you are clearing the content and doing it easily, why in the world do you WANT to know what someone else is doing. So you can say "lolGetCarried" or "ubad?". There is no positive outcome at all to wide open damage meters / logs as it just breeds negativity and open hostility. Because things rarely go easy. Content doesn't go smoothly just because, it goes smoothly because everyone is doing their job well. If it's not going smoothly, It's because people are screwing up. Now among friends and perhaps guildies you've know a while, you can trust them to self-police. Random strangers from fleet general chat are a different case. They need verification, and a combat log provides it. Trust, but verify. Edited January 11, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) No doubt. Most fail to realise a simple concept. There are a lot of "kids" who are try-hards that go all out on the meters.... to only pull agro or not move out of boss abilities and cause a wipe. There are a lot of "players" that might bring a % or 2 less DPS than the top guy, but they are more attentive to detail and dont stress the healers out by not moving or controlling their threat. (See what I did there Devorin_Sargothi?) Damage Meters , Gear score does not a great / bad player make. Threat meters, something else we could use combat logs for. Good idea. If they're reaching for max damage, they're working a rotation. That places them far above raw newbs. I can work with someone who knows a rotation. Edited January 11, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 At the end of the day, if you are clearing the content and doing it easily, why in the world do you WANT to know what someone else is doing. So you can say "lolGetCarried" or "ubad?". There is no positive outcome at all to wide open damage meters / logs as it just breeds negativity and open hostility. But there are bound to be groups of people who can't clear all content. There is no guarantee that every existing raiding guild in SWTOR will clear all content. Raiding will have to be incredibly easy for that to happen. Go to wowprogress and scroll down and imagine that every boss had 100% completion rate. If raiding is that easy, is it really raiding anymore? Anyone who is remotely skilled will find absolutely no challenge in it. In fact, the average player will not find any challenge in it because the game is tuned to be viable for the worst players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 But there are bound to be groups of people who can't clear all content. There is no guarantee that every existing raiding guild in SWTOR will clear all content. Raiding will have to be incredibly easy for that to happen. Go to wowprogress and scroll down and imagine that every boss had 100% completion rate. If raiding is that easy, is it really raiding anymore? Anyone who is remotely skilled will find absolutely no challenge in it. In fact, the average player will not find any challenge in it because the game is tuned to be viable for the worst players. The word you're looking for is farming. A whole village of farmers. Farmville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Then why does it matter if it's displayed in a combat log, animation on the screen, sound, or a warm feeling I get in my tummy? If you can see that someone missed the interrupt in an animation, why does it matter that I want to see it in words? Why should you have an advantage in content because of the way the game is designed? If I have a hard time looking at animations because of my poor eye sight, why should I not be allowed to analyze what happen with text? Tis the same information, no? Again, if you can do it without using numbers, why does it matter that someone else wants to? Why is your way of enjoying the game superior, or why is someone else's way unacceptable? So? There's this tip in the loading screen you might want to read: "Is someone bothering you? Type /ignore to stop seeing what they type." (something along those lines) Would it be better if they use something else to justify their point of view?(Hint: whatever it is, the evil-meanie will still think it's a good reason.) I can ask you the same question. Why do you need my numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I can ask you the same question. Why do you need my numbers? because This is what happens when you don't have full combat logs. Raid leader: Hey guys, this boss has 1 million HP and enrage timer of 10 minutes so we need minimum 1666 raid dps. Since we have 10 dps, everyone has to do at least 166.6 dps. Raid keeps wiping to enrage with everyone alive. Raid leader: K, which one of you DPS isn't doing at least 166.6 dps? Everyone: Not me. Who really wants to keep wiping at this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 because This is what happens when you don't have full combat logs. Raid leader: Hey guys, this boss has 1 million HP and enrage timer of 10 minutes so we need minimum 1666 raid dps. Since we have 10 dps, everyone has to do at least 166.6 dps. Raid keeps wiping to enrage with everyone alive. Raid leader: K, which one of you DPS isn't doing at least 166.6 dps? Everyone: Not me. Who really wants to keep wiping at this point? Look inward or find a better class of people to raid with. Simple really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Look inward or find a better class of people to raid with. Simple really. lolwut? So I should just go join another guild? Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 lolwut? So I should just go join another guild? Simple. If your guys aren't being honest with you...yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If your guys aren't being honest with you...yes. lol So the whole guild should stop progress and disband because one ******e isn't being honest? Makes so much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 lol So the whole guild should stop progress and disband because one ******e isn't being honest? Makes so much sense. In all my time in guilds the dishonest people are found out and the weak links are discovered; that can be done without meters or logs and those who weather such things are usually the better guild for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 In all my time in guilds the dishonest people are found out and the weak links are discovered; that can be done without meters or logs and those who weather such things are usually the better guild for it. Yea ok sure. Just explain to me, step by step, how you are going to find the under performer in this situation. Raid leader: Hey guys, this boss has 1 million HP and enrage timer of 10 minutes so we need minimum 1666 raid dps. Since we have 10 dps, everyone has to do at least 166.6 dps. Raid keeps wiping to enrage with everyone alive. Raid leader: K, which one of you DPS isn't doing at least 166.6 dps? Everyone: Not me. Just explain to me how you are going to find the people that are doing less than 166.6 dps without combat logs. I don't want to hear your story about your perfect guild. Most people aren't in perfect guilds filled with saints and amazing players. If you are gonna say "if you are good, you can do it", just don't bother. because logic is obviously too hard for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Yea ok sure. Just explain to me, step by step, how you are going to find the under performer in this situation. Raid leader: Hey guys, this boss has 1 million HP and enrage timer of 10 minutes so we need minimum 1666 raid dps. Since we have 10 dps, everyone has to do at least 166.6 dps. Raid keeps wiping to enrage with everyone alive. Raid leader: K, which one of you DPS isn't doing at least 166.6 dps? Everyone: Not me. Just explain to me how you are going to find the people that are doing less than 166.6 dps without combat logs. I don't want to hear your story about your perfect guild. Most people aren't in perfect guilds filled with saints and amazing players. If you are gonna say "if you are good, you can do it", just don't bother. because logic is obviously too hard for you. Wow...so shrill I don't think that finding the low DPS is the real problem in your guild dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Wow...so shrill I don't think that finding the low DPS is the real problem in your guild dude. lol yes it is because we want to kill the boss. So, tell me, how do you find the person doing less than 166.6 dps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 because This is what happens when you don't have full combat logs. Raid leader: Hey guys, this boss has 1 million HP and enrage timer of 10 minutes so we need minimum 1666 raid dps. Since we have 10 dps, everyone has to do at least 166.6 dps. Raid keeps wiping to enrage with everyone alive. Raid leader: K, which one of you DPS isn't doing at least 166.6 dps? Everyone: Not me. Who really wants to keep wiping at this point? How come you're singing a different song? One min it's because you want the same info in words now it's this. Please be consistent with your argument. I asked you based on what you said earlier why you need to see my numbers and you sing a different tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 How come you're singing a different song? One min it's because you want the same info in words now it's this. Please be consistent with your argument. I asked you based on what you said earlier why you need to see my numbers and you sing a different tune. What? You really don't make any sense, just like all the other anti-meter guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 lol yes it is because we want to kill the boss. So, tell me, how do you find the person doing less than 166.6 dps? Ask for screenshots and kick the person who "disconnects". But, in a more benign scenario, everyone will be honest. And maybe a couple people will be low, and want to improve so the group can beat the boss. And you'll want the information to be open so that people who want to help can easily help the players who want to improve. If people are noticeably low, they probably aren't able to easily see what's going wrong. Because they haven't put in the effort to figure out what works best. Which is why they're low. And the answer could be as simple as "hey, try using ability x instead of y", or "when we're moving, do z". I see _not_ having an accessible and raid-wide log as a bigger problem for large-group pugs than any other type of group. Take an already-unstable format, and provide no information to analyze on a wipe, and that's the end of that. Too many variables. Content would have to be extremely easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthKhaos Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 What? You really don't make any sense, just like all the other anti-meter guys. I am making sense. you're just dodging the question. Let me remind you since your memory is a bit spotty. I asked why you need a public combat log if you can easily tell in a flash point who's not doing their job in terms of CC and interrupts. You said you wanted to see it in number form and asked why can't I show my numbers. I responded by asking a similar question. Why do I have to if it's easy. and you go off talking about enrage timers and raiding. So I repeat. you never answered the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I see _not_ having an accessible and raid-wide log as a bigger problem for large-group pugs than any other type of group. Take an already-unstable format, and provide no information to analyze on a wipe, and that's the end of that. Too many variables. Content would have to be extremely easy. Yup. People will get frustrated way too fast, especially if they think they are doing their part correctly and the group is still wiping. The pug will just fall apart. No sane person would want to raid lead a pug without meters and deal with wipes. This is funny because the anti-meter guys are complaining that meters cause baddies to get kicked from pugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I am making sense. you're just dodging the question. Let me remind you since your memory is a bit spotty. I asked why you need a public combat log if you can easily tell in a flash point who's not doing their job in terms of CC and interrupts. You said you wanted to see it in number form and asked why can't I show my numbers. I responded by asking a similar question. Why do I have to if it's easy. and you go off talking about enrage timers and raiding. So I repeat. you never answered the question. You think people are asking for combat logs because they want to use it for 4 mans? Newsflash, people are asking for combat logs because they want it for raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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