Private combat logs?

[Icefoxy]

I'm in support of public combat logs, at least as a toggle option.

 

This is, however, a nitpick for me. I do not require it to remain a subscriber, I merely prefer it and feel it is a nifty feature which is worth any "elitism" it might encourage. I'll also point out that this elitism will exist either way in the community and though may not be as strong without this, will possibly be far more dramatic when it does appear.

 

I can just imagine it now.. "We wiped because the Guardian wasn't cyclone slashing and challenging calling enough!" "But I was doing it all the time!" "I only saw you do those 3 times in that entire 5 minute fight!" "The animations weren't playing a lot of the time, you know how That One Bug happens!" "Bull." "Well you must have been seeing it wrong!" "I'm not blind. Learn to play or get out." Drama drama drama drama. Mob mentality sets in and before you know it you have an awful dramatic load of BS from people that only half-saw things, have no log, and could very well be creating an issue over absolutely nothing. And that issue would have been far less dramatic if it was verifiable. People get FRUSTRATED when they can't confirm things and it's one person's hot air against anothers.

 

If there is one form of drama I cannot stand, it is drama over nothing. When there is ambiguity, you are going to encourage MORE drama. Over nothing. If in the situation above there was a log, the person accused could point to it to defend themselves and the discussion would be effectively over 9 times out of 10. Drama avoided. And in many occasions when a person SUSPECTS someone is not pulling their weight, they check logs first. Also, let us not forget the MANY times this is used CONSTRUCTIVELY to help a person learn to play the game better who is perfectly EAGER to learn. I've been on the receiving end of that once, and was GLAD to be. I learned some very valuable tips that made me a better tank across all MMOs. And I have public combat logs in part to thank for that.

 

As it is, even if you have reduced the frequency of these events, you have made them easily 2.34 times as dramatic while eliminating the ability for players to constructively give tips to one another by 31.91%

 

That's science there, Bioware. You can't deny science.

 

 

Seriously though! I honestly feel a public combat log is better. Even if it might "encourage" (a better word is facilitate, actually) some elitism here and there, at least the accused will be able to defend themselves WHEN it does come up - because even without a public combat log, there WILL be elitists. And there will be plenty of them. There might be a few less. But only a few.

 

I'm sorry guys, but you are NOT going to change human nature by keeping out the option for a public combat log. And you're not going to change the resulting behavior of people enough to make it worth sacrificing the benefits of having it - and there ARE benefits.

 

Of course, this is all very much opinion. And I'm a loyal subscriber either way. I appreciate the great social experiment you're doing here with this game, and curious to see how it will work out. I would like to see people focus more on just enjoying these games, but there are limits and points at which you end up shooting yourself in the foot instead of actually accomplishing your objective.

 

Just be sure that in trying to appeal to a casual crowd and keep the game "fun" that you do not exclude ALL features that have any negative side to them at all. Some features are a mixed bag, and some of those bags are worth taking despite some of the cons. I feel this is one of them. If the majority of the community disagrees with me and the status quo for TOR is maintained, I'll be sticking around anyway! TOR is worth playing, and I won't quit over something this minor. But I do care enough about it to let my opinion be known in a rambling post.

 

Thank you for your time. And I want you all to know I respect the opinions of both sides of this, I just wish folks would calm down some! I can definitely see a lot of the points that have been made here, and addressing them all would take a thesis at this kind of rate. *smirk* We feel how we feel. I hope those of us who are sticking around have a lot of fun together exploring TOR, and those leaving have a lot of fun where they're going!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Icefoxy

[AlpsStranger]

In this game you'll never be a dual proprietor to another player.

 

Oh, so another player can never impact my chance of success during a raid?

 

That's pretty crazy that Bioware managed to pull that off. I wonder how they did it?

[Devorin_Sargothi]

Agree 100% with this. This game isn't Wow. If you want a DPS meter go back to wow. If you want a LFG mecanic go back to wow. I currently hold a subscription to both games, both have there advantages. I don't think this game needs either of those to be a successful long running MMO. Some people may think they are "out of content" or frustrated but personally I'm gonna be happy just getting through all 8 unique storylines. (something I wager will take me 8 months)

 

If that's all you enjoy, you should have just waited for Mass Effect 3. A lot of us like grouping, learning, and overcoming content. You might like the mystery, but we wanna know how magnets work, so to speak. If all you want to do is grind up alts, I don't see why that should hold us back.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

In this game you'll never be a dual proprietor to another player. IRL I own a company with two other people. I have the legal right to know what everyone makes. My employees have no right to know what another employee makes. In fact we have gone so far to make it a company policy that discussion of what one makes with another employee is cause for release.

 

In my example do you have a right to know what I make when we work the exact same job for the exact same company. No you don't. You have absolutely no right to know that information, and ultimately that is what you are asking for in this game.

 

The developers decided that they will go so far as to let you know your own paycheck total. You are going to have to either 1) be satisfied with that and use that to make sure your at the top of your game 2) take your marbles and leave like you said you are going to do 3) submit a request to the development team as to why you should have access to someone elses information. They have their own reasons for doing this, and I sincerely doubt that what you are doing in this or other threads are going to change their minds. It has already been said before during beta. They even had a poll asking people how they felt. Unfortunately those boards were wiped on release.

 

Personally I don't see an issue with meters.. I use them for my own improvement at times. However I have seen my fair share of little e-peening punks who would stop and post numbers and slow a run down so they could stroke their self importance.. My main is a healer so ultimately I could give a rip what someone's dps numbers are.. I am more concerned if you stay out of the big red circles on the ground, or if the tank can take the lead out of his rear and actually face a mob away from the group so we don't take cleave damage. As a healer now I can tell when someone is in the wrong spot and taking damage that they shouldn't be taking.. I don't need a meter to let me know.

 

Still ain't seen his half of the rent. And he drank the last of the orange juice.

[Icefoxy]

If that's all you enjoy, you should have just waited for Mass Effect 3. A lot of us like grouping, learning, and overcoming content. You might like the mystery, but we wanna know how magnets work, so to speak. If all you want to do is grind up alts, I don't see why that should hold us back.

 

Devorin touches on a very good point here that people need to keep in mind.

 

Part of learning and overcoming content in any game is having access to how that game was played. Which plays were executed and how. Sports in general works this way. Games do too. You learn from your mistakes by analyzing them and overcoming them. Public combat logs are actually often used by groups CONSTRUCTIVELY in games. I cannot emphasize this enough.

 

I am sorry some of you have had bad experiences, though. And believe me, I've run into elitists who get upset you're pulling 2% less DPS or threat or healing than they do. I disliked Gearscore because of the idea that gear>skill>merit that it ended up encouraging. I really don't want to see it in TOR, but I wouldn't quit over it. But a DPS meter, public combat logs, especially OPTIONAL ones? It's another matter to me. At least it's skill-related. And involved in improving our gameplay. If I want to get advice from a friend on improving my rotation, if I want my guild to be able to call it out if I'm not doing something enough, I should have that option to share my combat log in-game.

 

Anyway, I hope some of ya can at least understand the perspective here. I really do think a toggle for releasing your combat logs to public option would please everyone! Who cares if some guilds end up requiring it? Just avoid those guilds. Live and let live. ^^

Edited January 11, 2012 by Icefoxy

[Tahana]

Still ain't seen his half of the rent. And he drank the last of the orange juice.

 

I like the humor.. I also used all of the tp and didn't tell you.

[Vydor_HC]

Devorin touches on a very good point here that people need to keep in mind.

 

Part of learning and overcoming content in any game is having access to how that game was played. Which plays were executed and how. Sports in general works this way. Games do too. You learn from your mistakes by analyzing them and overcoming them. This touching on a part of my previous reply, that public combat logs are actually often used by groups CONSTRUCTIVELY in games.

 

I am sorry some of you have had bad experiences, though. And believe me, I've run into elitists who get upset you're pulling 2% less DPS or threat or healing than they do. I disliked Gearscore. I really don't want to see it in TOR, but I wouldn't quit over it.

 

Anyway, I hope some of ya can at least understand the perspective here. I really do think a toggle for releasing your combat logs to public option would please everyone! Who cares if some guilds end up requiring it? Just avoid those guilds. Live and let live. ^^

 

But the bottom line is, all of that learning and growing can be done without parsers. They just make it trivial. That may be an accomplishment for some. The hard truth of the matter is they are not needed at all, people have just grown lazy over the years with having them in recent games.

[Tahana]

Oh, so another player can never impact my chance of success during a raid?

 

That's pretty crazy that Bioware managed to pull that off. I wonder how they did it?

 

Your fellow employee can impact your chances at earning a living. All it takes is one bad apple. Do you not listen to the news?? Do you not see how many people are unemployed?

 

I don't care what size a company is, one (1) employee can have a direct impact on people earning a living.. There are numerous accounts of how one employee brought down whole corporations (Enron comes to mind).. But as an employee you will still never have a right to see what anyone else makes.

[Icefoxy]

But the bottom line is, all of that learning and growing can be done without parsers. They just make it trivial. That may be an accomplishment for some. The hard truth of the matter is they are not needed at all, people have just grown lazy over the years with having them in recent games.

 

You make a good point. Most folks can learn and train without any need for them really. And it does tend to deduce the game down into a science which can get a little grating.

 

Hence I see both sides of this and remain a loyal subscriber either way, really. It isn't just because this is a nitpick issue to me thus not worth quitting over, but also because I can very much see both sides.

 

Anyway, given what a nitpick issue this is (for me, anyway!), as I said, I think I'll bow out of the discussion for now. I want to get back to playing. Good luck in your discussions guys, and I commend those of you who are staying friendly and good humored about it.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Icefoxy

[Devorin_Sargothi]

I like the humor.. I also used all of the tp and didn't tell you.

 

Now imagine I'm blind, and I have to take your word on everything. Not everyone will be so honest, and I have no way knowing your half of the rent was fifteen dollars in ones.

 

I need to see my roommate's combat log. I can't afford to be blind.

[AlpsStranger]

Your fellow employee can impact your chances at earning a living. All it takes is one bad apple. Do you not listen to the news?? Do you not see how many people are unemployed?

 

I don't care what size a company is, one (1) employee can have a direct impact on people earning a living.. There are numerous accounts of how one employee brought down whole corporations (Enron comes to mind).. But as an employee you will still never have a right to see what anyone else makes.

 

But of course this is absurd. What they earn is their reward. DPS is more like work completed.

 

This is more like asking if I have a right to know that my copilot is awake.

[TItanten]

But of course this is absurd. What they earn is their reward. DPS is more like work completed.

 

This is more like asking if I have a right to know that my copilot is awake.

 

God, I hope you can tell that by watching him and not just by having a heart monitor attached to read his vitals...

[AlpsStranger]

God, I hope you can tell that by watching him and not just by having a heart monitor attached to read his vitals...

 

What if I have 15 copilots?

[Hairless]

Guys. BW isn't ridiculous enough to give us just private combat logs.

 

What the BW guy is saying is we will get in-game personal meters made by BW that everyone will have by default. In a way, they will be forcing everyone to get used to damage meters and be aware of their performance.

 

We will also probably get FULL combat logs. It will happen. It has to or there won't be any raiding.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Hairless

[AlpsStranger]

Guys. BW isn't ridiculous enough to give us just private combat logs.

 

What the BW guy is saying is we will get in-game personal meters made by BW that everyone will have by default. In a way, they will be forcing everyone to get used to damage meters.

 

We will also probably get FULL combat logs. It will happen. It has to or there won't be any raiding.

 

Nah, I'm pretty sure they're gonna do private combat logs. They're that kind of retarded.

[TItanten]

What if I have 15 copilots?

 

Then you have a really ****** plane.

 

We can stop with the analogies by the way. None of them make sense.

 

You're mad you won't be able to tell if a random pug is pulling his weight. We get it. We just don't care.

 

Ask him this one question:

 

"How's your rotation?"

 

If he says "What's a rotation..." you can probably kick him.

[Hairless]

Nah, I'm pretty sure they're gonna do private combat logs. They're that kind of retarded.

 

Well shieet. I need an official word before the 19th.

[Vydor_HC]

You make a good point. Most folks can learn and train without any need for them really. And it does tend to deduce the game down into a science which can get a little grating.

 

Hence I see both sides of this and remain a loyal subscriber either way, really. It isn't just because this is a nitpick issue to me thus not worth quitting over, but also because I can very much see both sides.

 

Anyway, given what a nitpick issue this is (for me, anyway!), as I said, I think I'll bow out of the discussion for now. I want to get back to playing. Good luck in your discussions guys, and I commend those of you who are staying friendly and good humored about it.

 

/salute

 

Yeah, there has been some good back and forth on the issue. It's a heated one for sure.

[AlpsStranger]

Well shieet. I need an official word before the 19th.

 

See how "official" you feel that my sig link is. Up to you.

[Setanian]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

Right there at the bottom.

 

 

 

If you want to keep your combat log private, that's fine. I want the option to make mine public. I have nothing to hide. I want people to trust me, and combat logs give them the data to do so.

 

It's fine to feel a little put upon or even threatened by the criticism of others. People can be harsh. You paid your money, and you don't care to deal with criticism, that's fine.

 

But I'm the one paying MY money, and I insist on having hard data on what's going on in my group. I actively seek feedback from my teammates. If you're not interested in this kind of activity, we don't ever have to group, play, or even speak together.

 

I'm fine with that.

 

I don't care what you insist on. Why did you post ?

[AlpsStranger]

I don't care what you insist on. Why did you post ?

 

Why did *you* post?

[Setanian]

Guys. BW isn't ridiculous enough to give us just private combat logs.

 

What the BW guy is saying is we will get in-game personal meters made by BW that everyone will have by default. In a way, they will be forcing everyone to get used to damage meters and be aware of their performance.

 

We will also probably get FULL combat logs. It will happen. It has to or there won't be any raiding.

 

Why? Are you unable to raid without add-ons?

[Devorin_Sargothi]

I don't care what you insist on. Why did you post ?

 

You cared enough to reply, obviously.

 

I posted because I was concerned BW was going to prevent us from playing intelligently. We liek dataz.

[Swtorsmc]

Why? Are you unable to raid without add-ons?

 

The issue is almost every boss in HM and NM have dps enrage timers.

 

So currently players have NO way to gauge our dps however the game design forces us to know

 

Bad design is pushing alot of this.

[DarthKhaos]

Look, not everybody is looking for a long term relationship. Maybe in the future, if they found the right group, sure. But in the mean time the guy just wants to hook up for some good times in a flashpoint. Parsing another player's combat log is simply the responsible thing to do. You've got to protect yourself from smooth-talking bad players out there.

This made me laugh so hard. I wonder why people claim the game is not an MMO and lack social interactions. (SPOILER: It's the people not the game)

 

Also are we talking about flashpoints or raids? There are 4 of you in a flashppoint. 1 is tank, 1 is healer and 2 are dps. If you need a parser to tell you that Leetkilla didn't interrupt when you told him it is his job to interrupt... I think you got bigger issues.

 

My view is players got spoiled with WoW on many things. Granted a lot of things from WoW are good but there has been a lot of bad habits forming over there that really do not need to make their way over here.

 

Personally I love playing a caster in games. I still however find myself playing a Tank in every single MMO I've played including this one. I play with pugs a lot because it's how I gain new friends. I can tell who knows what they're doing and who don't easily. Doesn't take crunching numbers or anything like that.

 

And as for this comment

All this paranoia I keep hearing about some guy, who said you stunk, and kicked you from the group. Have any of you considered you might actually be doing poorly, or that it might be a good idea to get some advice and use some tools? It just takes a little homework.

 

And a parser!

It happens. To some more than others. I have experienced it not a lot but a couple of times and the funny thing was I was begged to return to the raid group because the observant ones. I told them no thank you.

 

There's always a-holes in games. You can't avoid them, however from my WoW experience they tend to be more noticeable because they're waving around recount as some kind of sword of truth to justify their point of view.