Private combat logs?

[AlpsStranger]

I seriously don't think you are going to enjoy what's in store for MMo's in the next five years.

 

Nah, I'm quitting the genre altogether. FarmVille3D isn't my thing.

 

I can do roleplaying with dice and sheets, and I can do immersion and adventure in something like Skyrim. MMORPGs are a wildly improper medium for these things. Apparently they've decided it's time to stop doing what they're good at and make twisted mockeries of other things.

[guided_by_voices]

Obviously, the raid game can't be even remotely serious without combat logs.

 

I would lol pretty hard if it was private-only, but even that would enable top guilds to ensure that their members were doing their stuff.

 

Still a giant step backwards from WoW.

 

false! many many bosses have been downed before logs. if wow is your first MMO I can see how you think this however.

[AlpsStranger]

But thanks for thinking I have a nice routine, I rather enjoy it!

 

Enjoy your nice life man, that has nothing to do with this discussion.

[ironix]

Clearly I will never be hardcore and my toon name is Kneedan so any of you leet players that want to use little numbers to judge others can put me on your ignore list now I'm the one sipping an expensive merlot playing in my study, in my rather large house i got from looking at little numbers at work :-)

 

No words... *shudder*

 

EDIT: No, I do have words. People like you make me sick. Anyone who hops in on any discussion as an excuse to say how much money they have instantly loses all respect with me. Obviously you measure the quality of your merlot by how much it set you back rather than any other metric.

Edited January 11, 2012 by ironix

[TItanten]

I can do roleplaying with dice and sheets, and I can do immersion and adventure in something like Skyrim. MMORPGs are a wildly improper medium for these things. Apparently they've decided it's time to stop doing what they're good at and make twisted mockeries of other things.

 

Do you min/max in D&D? Do you kick players for rolling badly?

 

Did you enchant/alchemy exploit in skyrim and 1 shot everything?

 

MMO RPGS are bad for adventure, immersion and roleplaying?!?!?!

 

THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR THAT!

 

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH.

 

Humanity, I weep for your future.

[Kesitah]

false! many many bosses have been downed before logs. if wow is your first MMO I can see how you think this however.

 

Still doesn't change that it's still fun to have some friendly competition. And that it is extremely helpful. Especially for raids like the one of my WoW guild were you have a mix of very good, good and very casual players. Where sometimes you have to analyze a more casual player's data (and these people often ASK for it "How was my performance? Where could I improve?") and giving hints to them. And you still can be fascinated the story, there is no contradiction.

[AlpsStranger]

Do you min/max in D&D? Do you kick players for rolling badly?

 

Of course not, don't be silly.

 

Did you enchant/alchemy exploit in skyrim and 1 shot everything?

 

Certainly not.

 

MMO RPGS are bad for adventure, immersion and roleplaying?!?!?!

 

Terrible in fact.

 

I also want to say that the "RPG" part of MMORPGs is a bastardization. The early genre had illusions of being electronic D&D, but reality set in quickly even then. By the time WoW rolled around we were pretty much looking at the dominant type of MMO.

 

The "RPG" in MMORPG has as much to do with the real thing as "grape soda" has to do with the fruit they make wine out of.

 

THEY WERE DESIGNED FOR THAT!

 

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH.

 

Humanity, I weep for your future.

 

Not true. Current generation WoW clones are basically designed for raiding. Had SWTOR been some kind of unique design, or something like a UO/EVE/SWG sandbox, you may have had a point.

 

I'd love for the genre to move beyond simple WoW clones, but that will take a lot more than voice acting, no meters, and a poor UI.

 

So long as they stay in Blizzard's "Rome" in design terms they need to do as the "Romans" do.

Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger

[Devorin_Sargothi]

Bingo. And instead of using the tool to be productive and help players get better, it was used for just the opposite, to make players feel worse about themselves. Which is how this tool is used. It's exclusionary, and destructive more than the opposite. It's not needed at all, the negatives in my view far outweigh the positives. And not just in the effect on the community and players, but that's enough for me to no be supportive.

 

If you're having trouble finding decent people to associate with, don't blame mathematics.

 

The whole point of pugging is to meet random people to accomplish quests, instances and other content. Unless you plan on asking their opinions about game concepts through whispers before inviting them, there's no real way of finding out if they're any good at the game. If they're nice, but suck, you can teach them. If they're nice and good at the game, you can friend them. If they're mean, but don't suck, you can ignore them. If they're mean AND suck, you can ignore them too.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi

[ObiWonCanolli]

Every week, BioWare get's less vocal, and makes increasingly awful decisions

 

And yet you keep posting here?!?!?!

[StealthLightning]

I will be honest. I don't want a public combat log because my dps is awful.I have played WoW for years and was lucky if I could get in the top half of a dps chart. It made raiding a lot more difficult when groups would often kick me after the first or second boss. I really hope Bioware doesn't institute public combat logs because it will significantly hurt my chances of successful raiding.

[aimbotcfg]

Bingo. And instead of using the tool to be productive and help players get better, it was used for just the opposite, to make players feel worse about themselves. Which is how this tool is used. It's exclusionary, and destructive more than the opposite. It's not needed at all, the negatives in my view far outweigh the positives. And not just in the effect on the community and players, but that's enough for me to no be supportive.

 

So instead of her feeling bad, or possibly getting help or advice if it was a different group, the whole group should feel bad about not downing some content and not knowing why?

 

What values her feelings over that of a whole group? Maybe if thewhole group was women and they all had an overly emotional response to finding out that they couldn't do a certain aspect of a video game that would make meters more viable?

 

Playing the emotion card is rediculous and not a valid reason against them.

[Vydor_HC]

If you're having trouble finding decent people to associate with, don't blame mathematics.

 

The whole point of pugging is to meet random people to accomplish quests, instances and other content. Unless you plan on asking their opinions about game concepts through whispers before inviting them, there's no real way of finding out if they're any good at the game. If they're nice, but suck, you can teach them. If they're nice and good at the game, you can friend them. If they're mean, but suck, you can ignore them. If they're mean AND suck, you can ignore them too.

 

I do blame the people, I know how they will use the tool. There is absolutely no need to add tools that further enable them to behave poorly, especially when the tool is not required for game play, its merely a nice to have.

[ironix]

I will be honest. I don't want a public combat log because my dps is awful.I have played WoW for years and was lucky if I could get in the top half of a dps chart. It made raiding a lot more difficult when groups would often kick me after the first or second boss. I really hope Bioware doesn't institute public combat logs because it will significantly hurt my chances of successful raiding.

 

And whichever raid you manage to parasite yourself to, a lack of meters will most certainly hurt their chances at successful raiding as well.

[Truga]

Yes!

 

Give me a boss that will just do random stuff all day long! I'm serious.

 

Give me stuff that can't be easily wikied!

 

I REALLY want a boss where the best description would be "Okay guys, pay attention, we don't know what he's going to do, but react the best you can."

 

You can have some pattern to it, like have it change every raid reset. But maybe 5-6 phases with 6+ variable patterns.

 

 

Like a General Greivous type boss:

 

Phase 1: He starts off by either attacking with a single saber needing to be tanked by knight, a blaster which means a vanguard would have to get agro (or maybe he would start shooting healers and have a healing only agro table), could be in a speeder making high speed bombing runs (flight phase) (no agro, just a dps race)

 

Phase 2: Pulls out multiple sabers and has to be kited; Sets up bombs to be defused; calls adds; Or any of phase 1.

 

Phase 3: Tank n' Spank; Soft enrage; or Interrupt phase (random instant death if not).

 

This would destroy content for people who are "slow", which is mostly casuals. And I don't mean that as a derogatory term, some people are very smart, but just clumsy in different ways. Pouring hours of your time into playing the game can make wonders about this, but casuals don't pour hours into a single game just to get a bit better.

 

For example, I was really good at both quake and warcraft 2, and I still love SupComm. But war3/starcraft requires the type of micro I'm just bad at and can't compete for some reason. I know most of it is training but I could never master warcraft 3 to the point I did in the prequel. Warcraft 2, I had no competition. In war3 I wasn't even competition, I was just too "slow"/"clumsy" or whatever you want to call it.

 

But yeah, I'm all for random encounters. The problem is balancing random encounters, because the team that gets 5 "easy" combinations and wins will be flamed to hell when they do it. "You just got lucky".

[scubamonk]

I will be honest. I don't want a public combat log because my dps is awful.I have played WoW for years and was lucky if I could get in the top half of a dps chart. It made raiding a lot more difficult when groups would often kick me after the first or second boss. I really hope Bioware doesn't institute public combat logs because it will significantly hurt my chances of successful raiding.

 

Not to sound elitist, but as long as enrage timers exist, you are hurting not only yours, but 7/15 other people's chances of successfully raiding. Its possible you'll be grouped with superstar dps that makes up for your damage, but my understanding is anything beyond normal mode has very tight enrage timers. People don't boot people for low dps just because they like being jerks (well not most people) they do it because everyone has to do their job or bosses don't die.

 

Not the worst thing in the world, but if Bioware wants to go down this path I think it would be best if they found a better mechanic than enrage timers.

[Urgas]

I am fine with making them hidable if you want. If you don't want me to see yours you can't play with me. Easy.

 

But, for overall comparaisions I want to be able to consolidate everyone else in my ops group.

 

If bad people keep theirs hidden, it just allows people that aren't bad to avoid the poeple that are bad, thus improving my quality of gaming.

[guided_by_voices]

if Bioware wants to go down this path I think it would be best if they found a better mechanic than enrage timers.

 

AGREE! They are the laziest way to make an encounter difficult

[Vydor_HC]

So instead of her feeling bad, or possibly getting help or advice if it was a different group, the whole group should feel bad about not downing some content and not knowing why?

 

What values her feelings over that of a whole group? Maybe if thewhole group was women and they all had an overly emotional response to finding out that they couldn't do a certain aspect of a video game that would make meters more viable?

 

Playing the emotion card is rediculous and not a valid reason against them.

 

No, I'm not playing the emotional card...my wife was just part of the example. This also leads to another reason why people do not like to give anecdotal evidence, because all arguments turn to the specifics of the incident instead of the topic at hand.

 

I'm not saying that the whole group should suffer, exactly the opposite. We should have continued to work together to figure out the problem. That would have been way more beneficial in the end. Instead of making it a bad experience for players by booting them for some arbitrary reason.

 

If we did not succeed, at least we would have given it a valiant effort and would have been able to do better the next time. But they took the easy route and the route that was more destructive on the overall community.

 

Just because the boss doesn't die, doesn't mean you failed. The game is about a lot more than just killing animated toons, it's about social interaction as well.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[TItanten]

I also want to say that the "RPG" part of MMORPGs is a bastardization. The early genre had illusions of being electronic D&D, but reality set in quickly even then. By the time WoW rolled around we were pretty much looking at the dominant type of MMO.

 

The "RPG" in MMORPG has as much to do with the real thing as "grape soda" has to do with the fruit they make wine out of.

 

 

 

Not true. Current generation WoW clones are basically designed for raiding. Had SWTOR been some kind of unique design, or something like a UO/EVE/SWG sandbox, you may have had a point.

 

I'd love for the genre to move beyond simple WoW clones, but that will take a lot more than voice acting, no meters, and a poor UI.

 

So long as they stay in Blizzard's "Rome" in design terms they need to do as the "Romans" do.

 

 

The only reason that is is because players started playing that way. You can treat D&D the same way, but you'd be shunned by everyone. You could bring out spreadsheets, calculations, and min/maxing to every gaming genre. The WoW players are the only one's who popularized it so far.

 

Hardcore raiders (and their inccessant whining on every forum) are the ones to blame for the downfall of sandbox type games. The need for structured gameplay that you can beat by reading a wiki, looking at a dps meter, and all for a shiny purple word is what killed the sandbox.

 

Companies saw how well WoW did/does and want a peice of the pie. For some reason they think that the vocal minority on the forums are the ones that are making blizzard money. Yes, they think the 5% of players that saw Naxx are the key to making money.

 

Self-proclaimed hardcore raiders (and PvPers) are the least loyal costumers and they cost the most to keep around. Doing anything for them is a horrible investment of time and money. They're just going to complain anyway or want stuff so against the majority that if you follow through it will alienate the vast majority of the subscribers. (Think original Naxx and Arenas)

 

So before you keep posting this drivel about MMORPGS being a bastardization of RPGs realize that this game, the one you're paying to play right now, has attempted to put the RPG back in. It's basically Knights of the Old Republic - Multiplayer mode. And KotOR is one of the great RPGs.

 

It's the baddies (hardcores) from WoW that are trying to turn it into a bastardization of a RPG, not the other way around.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Notannos
use of WoWtards

[scubamonk]

I am fine with making them hidable if you want. If you don't want me to see yours you can't play with me. Easy.

 

But, for overall comparaisions I want to be able to consolidate everyone else in my ops group.

 

If bad people keep theirs hidden, it just allows people that aren't bad to avoid the poeple that are bad, thus improving my quality of gaming.

 

This is the best solution in my mind. Seeing how many people are opposed to metrics, there will clearly be a demand for groups who leave the meters off/private. Making off/private/public optional should make everyone happy.

[aimbotcfg]

People don't boot people for low dps just because they like being jerks (well not most people) they do it because everyone has to do their job or bosses don't die.

 

Could not agree more. In some cases you can say 'yo, I'm a marauder too, are you dropping this before this and switching over to this when this is on CD?'. If you get a reasonable person in a flashpoint, all is grand, they change, improve you down it.

 

If however you are in a hard mode where getting them to change up their rotation wont do jack without the gear and experience to back it up. Or its someone who irrationally flys of the handle and cappslocks "ITS JUST A GAME< DONT TELL ME HOW TO PLAY!", then unfortunately, if you want to progress, the person will need to leave the group untill they are capable of the content.

[aimbotcfg]

No, I'm not playing the emotional card...my wife was just part of the example. This also leads to another reason why people do not like to give anecdotal evidence, because all arguments turn to the specifics of the incident instead of the topic at hand.

 

I'm not saying that the whole group should suffer, exactly the opposite. We should have continued to work together to figure out the problem. That would have been way more beneficial in the end. Instead of making it a bad experience for players by booting them for some arbitrary reason.

 

If we did not succeed, at least we would have given it a valiant effort and would have been able to do better the next time. But they took the easy route and the route that was more destructive on the overall community.

 

Just because the boss doesn't die, doesn't mean you failed. The game is about a lot more than just killing animated toons, it's about social interaction as well.

 

I'm all for giving advice, a lot of the time though, people just take offence no matter how nicely you word it, other times its just not applicable and no matter how hard you try you can't get the person up to the level they need to be to o the content without them habving time to practice/grind more gear/respec.

 

In that case 7 other people shouldn't have to continually fail and waste hours of time when there is no hope, just to save someones feelings.

[TItanten]

This would destroy content for people who are "slow", which is mostly casuals. And I don't mean that as a derogatory term, some people are very smart, but just clumsy in different ways. Pouring hours of your time into playing the game can make wonders about this, but casuals don't pour hours into a single game just to get a bit better.

 

For example, I was really good at both quake and warcraft 2, and I still love SupComm. But war3/starcraft requires the type of micro I'm just bad at and can't compete for some reason. I know most of it is training but I could never master warcraft 3 to the point I did in the prequel. Warcraft 2, I had no competition. In war3 I wasn't even competition, I was just too "slow"/"clumsy" or whatever you want to call it.

 

But yeah, I'm all for random encounters. The problem is balancing random encounters, because the team that gets 5 "easy" combinations and wins will be flamed to hell when they do it. "You just got lucky".

 

And you know what i say about who says stuff like that? **** em.

 

You don't really have to make the encounters tuned to a razor's edge if you encorporate randomness. Just punish gross neglect.

 

Any insta-wipe mechanics would just be asinine on a random boss. You could make him "easy" but just situationally awareness hard.

[guided_by_voices]

The only reason that is is because players started playing that way. You can treat D&D the same way, but you'd be shunned by everyone. You could bring out spreadsheets, calculations, and min/maxing to every gaming genre. The WoWtards are the only one's who popularized it so far.

 

Hardcore raiders (and their inccessant whining on every forum) are the ones to blame for the downfall of sandbox type games. The need for structured gameplay that you can beat by reading a wiki, looking at a dps meter, and all for a shiny purple word is what killed the sandbox.

 

Companies saw how well WoW did/does and want a peice of the pie. For some reason they think that the vocal minority on the forums are the ones that are making blizzard money. Yes, they think the 5% of players that saw Naxx are the key to making money.

 

Self-proclaimed hardcore raiders (and PvPers) are the least loyal costumers and they cost the most to keep around. Doing anything for them is a horrible investment of time and money. They're just going to complain anyway or want stuff so against the majority that if you follow through it will alienate the vast majority of the subscribers. (Think original Naxx and Arenas)

 

So before you keep posting this drivel about MMORPGS being a bastardization of RPGs realize that this game, the one you're paying to play right now, has attempted to put the RPG back in. It's basically Knights of the Old Republic - Multiplayer mode. And KotOR is one of the great RPGs.

 

It's the baddies (hardcores) from WoW that are trying to turn it into a bastardization of a RPG, not the other way around.

 

well said! the next few weeks/months will be interesting.

[StealthLightning]

The only reason that is is because players started playing that way. You can treat D&D the same way, but you'd be shunned by everyone. You could bring out spreadsheets, calculations, and min/maxing to every gaming genre. The WoWtards are the only one's who popularized it so far.

 

Hardcore raiders (and their inccessant whining on every forum) are the ones to blame for the downfall of sandbox type games. The need for structured gameplay that you can beat by reading a wiki, looking at a dps meter, and all for a shiny purple word is what killed the sandbox.

 

Companies saw how well WoW did/does and want a peice of the pie. For some reason they think that the vocal minority on the forums are the ones that are making blizzard money. Yes, they think the 5% of players that saw Naxx are the key to making money.

 

Self-proclaimed hardcore raiders (and PvPers) are the least loyal costumers and they cost the most to keep around. Doing anything for them is a horrible investment of time and money. They're just going to complain anyway or want stuff so against the majority that if you follow through it will alienate the vast majority of the subscribers. (Think original Naxx and Arenas)

 

So before you keep posting this drivel about MMORPGS being a bastardization of RPGs realize that this game, the one you're paying to play right now, has attempted to put the RPG back in. It's basically Knights of the Old Republic - Multiplayer mode. And KotOR is one of the great RPGs.

 

It's the baddies (hardcores) from WoW that are trying to turn it into a bastardization of a RPG, not the other way around.

 

WoW has actually made their content much much more accessable. In Wrath of the Lich King, they would progressively nerf raids over time(to allow pugs to more easily do it)

 

and in Cataclysm, they put in a Looking For Raid feature(Like looking for group) where you would fight a much easier version of raid bosses.

 

Nowadays everyone can see all the content pretty easily, but if you want achievements and the best gear you have to go into heroics which require min/maxing.