Assassin VS Operative?

[pedley]

/Bold

=Fail kiddie

 

I love how you make a comment about how to make pvp fair that any one with a brain would see would ruin the diversity of any mmorpg.

 

It's impossible to balance every class against every class but trying to explain that to you would take more time.than its worth.

 

Yes I do play operative I was also the second operative to reach 50 on my server this is my only class, I'm not a form reroller, my main spec is healing. But im guessing you don't know that operative had different specs with your comments of 1v1 balancing.

[Spigotwelder]

i know all about emergence, tribes skiing and rocket jump are the only good examples of emergent gameplay in the last 10 years

[flooble]

i know all about emergence

 

Apparently not.

[Spigotwelder]

heh!!!!!!!!!!! you showed me m8

[flooble]

I love how you make a comment about how to make pvp fair that any one with a brain would see would ruin the diversity of any mmorpg.

 

It's impossible to balance every class against every class but trying to explain that to you would take more time.than its worth.

 

Yes I do play operative I was also the second operative to reach 50 on my server this is my only class, I'm not a form reroller, my main spec is healing. But im guessing you don't know that operative had different specs with your comments of 1v1 balancing.

 

You want to be campaigning for buffs, based on the logic some people (not you) are using here.

 

After all, you'll not be killing anyone as a healer....so...by their definition you MUST be underpowered.

 

Yupl Yes siree, that's totally how it works, there is NO such thing as synergy, nope. It's all about the 1v1 e-peen swinging contest.

[Manigma]

I would play an operative, but I can't help picking sith! those tomato faces and squibly beards are just too adorable.

[Fairell]

being rank 54 shadow myself and having full champion gear bar handwraps i can tell you that assassins are weaker version of any dps class. yes, we have some utility, we can help our team a bit, but every other class can do it better. do i have fun with the class? absolutely. but it doesnt change the straight facts.

 

please dont come up with videos of fully geared sins trashing underleveled, undergeared or just plain bad opponents. i can kill 90% of the population on my server easily, but thats only because im geared and have some pvp skill. most of the peeps out there dont.

 

you lack any sort of reliable burst, but you HAVE to kill your target quickly, because you blow up as soon as someone looks at you. we are the only class without any sort of straight mitigation or absorb shields and have only light armor. dont dare to attack anything without cc breaker and resilience or you are just going to give them a free kill.

 

you can pretty reliably kill a sorc. thats it. you cannot mess with geared and skilled heavy armor classes, you just cant, because they have far better mitigation while having same dmg. same goes with marauders. you are decent fighter for 12 seconds. out of stealth + blackout + force potency. after those you just dont have enough dmg or insufficient force.

ill dont start on guarded targets. even on a squishy, you do pitiful dmg. you absolutely rely on crit. if your stuff doesnt crit, you do no meaningful dmg at all.

 

especially, every decent pvper KNOWS that you have to pop everything at the beginning of a fight. you simply have to due to the force regen. combined with the project delay, the just pop defensive cds, vanish or force camouflage, making you a sitting duck with no real threat anymore.

 

assassin is fun against pugs. but with the trend going towards powertechs, mercs and marauders, facing a premade of those renders you nearly useless.

 

i dont say we are absolutely underpowered. but somewhere we are lacking. we are not front fighters, but we are also not the sneaky killers like ops/scoundrels are. i dont know, but i feel that im lacking a distinct role in pvp, overall squishiness of the deception/infiltration with very limited dmg capabilities somehow doesnt feel right.

[Pappus]

First of all, this is not a nerf thread. I simply wish to express in a reasonable, genuine, mature and responsible manner my current thoughts on the above two classes.

 

I play an Assassin, I currently have 11 pieces of Champion Gear and my Valor Rank sits at about 49 currently. I had a 2600 rating in WoWs Arena (so not great, but not bad either) and if you Google my real name, you'd also find out I have competed in multiple countries internationally at a very popular FPS. The only reason I included those, was to provide a decent level of credibility to those who think I'm just another gamer whinging about the game.

 

Now that, that is out of the way, I (and many other Assassins particularly) would like to know what (if anything) is going to be done about Operatives? This thread is NOT a 'nerf' post as already stated, but it seems to me currently that the Operative is a superior version of the Assassin. Which is fine, I have no issues with this if this indeed the way they are meant to be.

 

I know there are ALOT of 'nerf operative' threads, and would like to know what BioWares stance/thoughts are on this? I do think they need a 'fix', but not to the extent where they need a nerf - although I realise the difficulty in balancing them without doing so.

 

I guess, what I'm trying to work out for myself is whether or not I should reroll an IA -> Operative to 50 and PVP with it or continue with my Assassin? If Operatives are performing and operating the way BW intends them to, then it is honestly fine - it's not a big deal, I'll just level an Operative to 50 and PVP with it, but in their current state I cannot continue playing an Assassin as my contribution as one is detrimental to my teams success. Why have a Deception Assassin when they can take an Operative?

 

Thanks to all those who read and respond appropriately and responsibly. I do not want to get Operatives nerfed (or Smugglers for that matter).

 

If I am to take PvP seriously in this game (which I love by the way), pending class changes from Bioware, it seems that my Assassin has been a waste and that an Operative needs to be rolled.

 

I would like other peoples thoughts on this - other Deception Assassins particularly.

 

Thanks

 

You have 10 times the utility of an operative yet the same dmg.

 

The only difference is, that it comes 2 gcd's later.

 

Against tanks you will struggle because by design we are no tank killer, that is where the operative shines.

 

Watch a couple of good streams and you will notice, that shocks go beyond 6k, as does discharge maul (5k+) and execute which you can chain and keep going without need going into stealth again.

 

You are not reliant on crit luck, because on shock/discharge you reach very close to 100% crit.

 

Did like 10 duels against such a stunkilling operative and I came out on top most and I let him open on me every time. Okay I knew he was coming and we both always played with everything up, but in the end I still won the day

 

Get into your class if any class seriously needs some tuning down, then it is the assassin. Don't be fooled by those retarded posts here.

 

13k-18k in 3 gcd's by operatives? nice but not the only ones that can 3 gcd that amount of damage and guess what? We don't need to be in stealth at all to pull it.

 

Edit: To the joke above about 'unreliable' burst - what is unrealiable with 100% crit?

 

Shock, chainshock and even discharge are guaranteed crits all the time if you actually took time to optimize your gear. Those are our heavy hitters so nothing about our burst when we need it is unreliable. Recklessness is on a 1:15 cd so that ain't very long either to make it happen...

Edited January 11, 2012 by Pappus

[cloudxshadowbane]

Cool a bursty OP complaining about another bursty OP.

 

 

I've been crit by Operatives and Assassins for 5k+ quite regularly.

I've seen high end spec Assassins 2 shot people with consumables (Jim on Death Wind Corridor comes to mind).

 

Anyways, play what you enjoy.

 

If you want a competive MMO game, stop playing MMORPGs... play an FPS or RTS where PvP is central.

 

Obvious Liar is Obvious Liar.

/Fail

[cloudxshadowbane]

You have 10 times the utility of an operative yet the same dmg.

 

The only difference is, that it comes 2 gcd's later.

 

Against tanks you will struggle because by design we are no tank killer, that is where the operative shines.

 

Watch a couple of good streams and you will notice, that shocks go beyond 6k, as does discharge maul (5k+) and execute which you can chain and keep going without need going into stealth again.

 

You are not reliant on crit luck, because on shock/discharge you reach very close to 100% crit.

 

Did like 10 duels against such a stunkilling operative and I came out on top most and I let him open on me every time. Okay I knew he was coming and we both always played with everything up, but in the end I still won the day

 

Get into your class if any class seriously needs some tuning down, then it is the assassin. Don't be fooled by those retarded posts here.

 

13k-18k in 3 gcd's by operatives? nice but not the only ones that can 3 gcd that amount of damage and guess what? We don't need to be in stealth at all to pull it.

 

 

You obviously have no clue about shadows/sins. It actually quite hilarious

 

 

 

 

I love how you make a comment about how to make pvp fair that any one with a brain would see would ruin the diversity of any mmorpg.

 

It's impossible to balance every class against every class but trying to explain that to you would take more time.than its worth.

 

Yes I do play operative I was also the second operative to reach 50 on my server this is my only class, I'm not a form reroller, my main spec is healing. But im guessing you don't know that operative had different specs with your comments of 1v1 balancing.

 

 

A. I never said balance every class against every class. L2Read

 

B. Every game that has anything close to balance uses R->P->Sciss

Which IS based on 1v1 foundation!!

 

C. You couldn't possibly prove your statement about being second operative to reach 50 or whatever so why bring it up unless really you are just trying to hide you rolled OP cuz it was known to bw OP (even such it was relayed to BW in beta anyway lmao)

 

 

 

/derp

Edited January 11, 2012 by cloudxshadowbane

[Anifiko]

There are threads like this all the time in mmo's, as it happens i play both classes but that is not important. What might be more important is what also happens in every mmo -the 'OP' class gets nerf'd hard, then the defenders of the OP class do one of three things,

 

1. Reroll the next OP class,

 

2. Admit that the class was a bit OP after all but the Nerf was over done and spend the next 5 years trying to bring back the glory days while sat at the bottom of the food chain - a result of not entering into a reaonable debate about what ought to be altered to effectively bringing the class into line without gutting it

 

3. Rage quit and unsub

 

yet no one ever seems to learn

[MarcoMontana]

Assassins are Tank / DPS with stuns, snares, high damage mitigation, knockbacks, lightning, and stealth...

 

Now you want Opening Burst too?

[flooble]

@Anifiko: Yup.

 

Only reservation I have is that it has never been established if the CLASS is the root cause of the problem or if it is something else.

 

 

The complaint is "omg they do too much burst". Now, I've seen assassin screencaps of 9.8k damage in a single GCD/button press. I don't see people complaining about them. In fact there have been examples of just about every class doing ridiculous burst damage over the days. All have a common factor in the videos....

 

Ops/scoundrels get the hate because they're sneaky.

 

 

With a potential balance issue, first, find the problem THEN fix it. People complain about symptoms, rarely about the actual root cause with any accuracy. Lets rule out the possibility that ops/scoundrels are a symptom and not the root cause before we suggest messing with a class based on a single spec.

[Bhorzo]

ITT: People who played rogues in World of Warcraft, and thought "Assassin's" would be the Rogues of SWTOR. But when they realized that the rogues are actually Operatives, they get all angry and resentful.

 

Based on personal experience, of course, but the 4 people I know that are playing Assassins all did so to be the "rogue class". They're all pissed they made it to 50 on the wrong class, without ever stopping to look around as they speed-levelled to 50.

 

The problem with this way of thinking ("Wahh! Why aren't Assassins like rogues, and Operatives like... something else!?!?") is that people focus on what Assassins's CAN'T do, and completely overlook and forget what they CAN do. Assassins can do other things. But if you're tunnel visioning the size of opening crits, you forget that fact, or just don't care.

 

Not saying I haven't been steamrolled by Operative burst - and maybe it needs some slight tweaking - but playing in a team provides quite a bit of protection from "overpowered Operatives". Assassins have great tools that benefit the team too, but are less glamorous.

 

(Yes, my two highest level classes are Scoundrel and Shadow, though the Scoundrel isn't 50 yet.)

[_Scattered_]

It is clear that operative burst is over tuned.

 

I won't be surprised if they get a flat 10% reduction to this burst.

[MarcoMontana]

All I see every Warzone top classes in Damage/ Healing / Kills

 

1. Inquisitor

2. Bounty Hunter

3. Inquisitor

4. Warrior

5. Inquisitor

6. Inquisitor

7. Agent

8. Inquisitor

9. Inquisitor

[Zhifu]

Obvious Liar is Obvious Liar.

/Fail

 

Two Chairvoyant Strikes cost 50 force,project cost 45, and force breach cost 20. You will not have enough force to do another rotation. We either run/restealth/ or stand there and spam saber strikes lol.

[Fairell]

You have 10 times the utility of an operative yet the same dmg.

 

The only difference is, that it comes 2 gcd's later.

 

Against tanks you will struggle because by design we are no tank killer, that is where the operative shines.

 

Watch a couple of good streams and you will notice, that shocks go beyond 6k, as does discharge maul (5k+) and execute which you can chain and keep going without need going into stealth again.

 

You are not reliant on crit luck, because on shock/discharge you reach very close to 100% crit.

 

Did like 10 duels against such a stunkilling operative and I came out on top most and I let him open on me every time. Okay I knew he was coming and we both always played with everything up, but in the end I still won the day

 

Get into your class if any class seriously needs some tuning down, then it is the assassin. Don't be fooled by those retarded posts here.

 

13k-18k in 3 gcd's by operatives? nice but not the only ones that can 3 gcd that amount of damage and guess what? We don't need to be in stealth at all to pull it.

 

Edit: To the joke above about 'unreliable' burst - what is unrealiable with 100% crit?

 

Shock, chainshock and even discharge are guaranteed crits all the time if you actually took time to optimize your gear. Those are our heavy hitters so nothing about our burst when we need it is unreliable. Recklessness is on a 1:15 cd so that ain't very long either to make it happen...

 

 

stop being dumb. everything a sin has relies on stacks, procs, additional CDs. you need to work hard for things other classes do with one button. 18k? *** are you smoking? there is no way in hell you will pull 18k on a geared target.

 

WOW. shock is nearly 100% crit. so what? shock isnt your tracer missile. and project delay gives any decent ooponent time to react and mitigate it. you are talking like an old POM pyro mage. those 6k hits are possible with BiS gear and all consumables up. you have to set up your "burst" thats at least 2 GCDs. so what sort of idiots are you fighting that cannot react in that time?

[Pappus]

stop being dumb. everything a sin has relies on stacks, procs, additional CDs. you need to work hard for things other classes do with one button. 18k? *** are you smoking? there is no way in hell you will pull 18k on a geared target.

 

WOW. shock is nearly 100% crit. so what? shock isnt your tracer missile. and project delay gives any decent ooponent time to react and mitigate it. you are talking like an old POM pyro mage. those 6k hits are possible with BiS gear and all consumables up. you have to set up your "burst" thats at least 2 GCDs. so what sort of idiots are you fighting that cannot react in that time?

 

Big thing that you need to setup 2x voltaic....

 

It doesn't matter how they react, because you have force shroud. They literally cannot stop you in any way.

 

Open up with spike on a knockback class somewhere (sage/bh comes to mind):

Spike -> Voiltaic 1 -> Shroud and Voltaic 2 -> Shock -> low blow -> crushing darkness into maul -> discharge -> execute. If you are a shadow just switch CD with project.

 

When I stack my buffs it is just running to them voltaic 1 -> voltaic 2 -> shock -> discharge -> execute and next.Even if they knockback me my shock still goes through and they have no hp to put up any fight.

 

Ungeared players are hit for 6.6k+ with shock alone btw. Very geared players still for 5k and no I am not adding the chain shock into that calculation.

 

Just because you guys can't do it it doesn't mean that it exists. If a healer needs to be dropped, then he is dead the seconds my buffs go up regardless of what he tries, because I have more counter moves then he has defensive ones.

 

 

But hey works in my favor when you call for assassin buffs. Maybe I can start doing funny stuff like 2x voltaic on a random search for the healer and oneshot him.

[cloudxshadowbane]

stop being dumb. everything a sin has relies on stacks, procs, additional CDs. you need to work hard for things other classes do with one button. 18k? *** are you smoking? there is no way in hell you will pull 18k on a geared target.

 

WOW. shock is nearly 100% crit. so what? shock isnt your tracer missile. and project delay gives any decent ooponent time to react and mitigate it. you are talking like an old POM pyro mage. those 6k hits are possible with BiS gear and all consumables up. you have to set up your "burst" thats at least 2 GCDs. so what sort of idiots are you fighting that cannot react in that time?

 

Exactly. I don't know what Bioware was smoking. You CAN NOT have a class based on anywhere near a much RNG and stacking as the sin/shadow WITHOUT AUTO ATTACK.

Shadows/sins need more on demand burst. Period.

 

P.S. If you check the patch notes you can further tell Bioware has NO IDEA what they are doing. They are buffing our ONLY useful/balanced/polished spec (kinetic tanking).... but not touching the others . hahaha

 

 

 

 

Big thing that you need to setup 2x voltaic....

 

It doesn't matter how they react, because you have force shroud. They literally cannot stop you in any way.

 

Open up with spike on a knockback class somewhere (sage/bh comes to mind):

Spike -> Voiltaic 1 -> Shroud and Voltaic 2 -> Shock -> low blow -> crushing darkness into maul -> discharge -> execute. If you are a shadow just switch CD with project.

 

When I stack my buffs it is just running to them voltaic 1 -> voltaic 2 -> shock -> discharge -> execute and next.Even if they knockback me my shock still goes through and they have no hp to put up any fight.

 

Ungeared players are hit for 6.6k+ with shock alone btw. Very geared players still for 5k and no I am not adding the chain shock into that calculation.

 

Just because you guys can't do it it doesn't mean that it exists. If a healer needs to be dropped, then he is dead the seconds my buffs go up regardless of what he tries, because I have more counter moves then he has defensive ones.

 

 

But hey works in my favor when you call for assassin buffs. Maybe I can start doing funny stuff like 2x voltaic on a random search for the healer and oneshot him.

 

Obvious Liar is Obvious.

 

 

Translation of quote= I am an operative player and I will post acting as if I am a sin just to pull random unfeasible numbers out of my $@#, that make the sin damage look as bad or close to as OP as operative/scounds.

 

 

I, personally as a high Valor rank Shadow, with over 30% chance to crit, 80% crit damage, and 450 expertise, that those numbers ONLY happen with surge adrenals+Exp buff+Trinket ON LOWBIES and from chained abilities. Not one single. /Fact.

 

ops/scounds do not require all that RNG, Buffs, etc. TO DO HIGHER DAMAGE, AND ON GEARED 50's.

/Fact.

Edited January 11, 2012 by cloudxshadowbane

[flooble]

ITT: People who played rogues in World of Warcraft, and thought "Assassin's" would be the Rogues of SWTOR. But when they realized that the rogues are actually Operatives, they get all angry and resentful.

 

Based on personal experience, of course, but the 4 people I know that are playing Assassins all did so to be the "rogue class". They're all pissed they made it to 50 on the wrong class, without ever stopping to look around as they speed-levelled to 50.

 

The problem with this way of thinking ("Wahh! Why aren't Assassins like rogues, and Operatives like... something else!?!?") is that people focus on what Assassins's CAN'T do, and completely overlook and forget what they CAN do. Assassins can do other things. But if you're tunnel visioning the size of opening crits, you forget that fact, or just don't care.

 

Not saying I haven't been steamrolled by Operative burst - and maybe it needs some slight tweaking - but playing in a team provides quite a bit of protection from "overpowered Operatives". Assassins have great tools that benefit the team too, but are less glamorous.

 

(Yes, my two highest level classes are Scoundrel and Shadow, though the Scoundrel isn't 50 yet.)

 

Oh yes. That was my first point in the first post I made in this thread.

 

 

Had they called the assassin something else, we'd not see this debate.

[-Makaz-]

Big thing that you need to setup 2x voltaic....

 

It doesn't matter how they react, because you have force shroud. They literally cannot stop you in any way.

 

Open up with spike on a knockback class somewhere (sage/bh comes to mind):

Spike -> Voiltaic 1 -> Shroud and Voltaic 2 -> Shock -> low blow -> crushing darkness into maul -> discharge -> execute. If you are a shadow just switch CD with project.

 

When I stack my buffs it is just running to them voltaic 1 -> voltaic 2 -> shock -> discharge -> execute and next.Even if they knockback me my shock still goes through and they have no hp to put up any fight.

 

Ungeared players are hit for 6.6k+ with shock alone btw. Very geared players still for 5k and no I am not adding the chain shock into that calculation.

 

Just because you guys can't do it it doesn't mean that it exists. If a healer needs to be dropped, then he is dead the seconds my buffs go up regardless of what he tries, because I have more counter moves then he has defensive ones.

 

 

But hey works in my favor when you call for assassin buffs. Maybe I can start doing funny stuff like 2x voltaic on a random search for the healer and oneshot him.

 

Are we playing the same game. My sin has the same skills, use the same chains but never ever ever ever did over 4600K damage - or is there such a up between T1 and T2 main hand... I am not particularly lucky (still on T1 mainhand -_- and I have been openning bags since 17/12)

[Fairell]

Big thing that you need to setup 2x voltaic....

 

It doesn't matter how they react, because you have force shroud. They literally cannot stop you in any way.

 

Open up with spike on a knockback class somewhere (sage/bh comes to mind):

Spike -> Voiltaic 1 -> Shroud and Voltaic 2 -> Shock -> low blow -> crushing darkness into maul -> discharge -> execute. If you are a shadow just switch CD with project.

 

When I stack my buffs it is just running to them voltaic 1 -> voltaic 2 -> shock -> discharge -> execute and next.Even if they knockback me my shock still goes through and they have no hp to put up any fight.

 

Ungeared players are hit for 6.6k+ with shock alone btw. Very geared players still for 5k and no I am not adding the chain shock into that calculation.

 

Just because you guys can't do it it doesn't mean that it exists. If a healer needs to be dropped, then he is dead the seconds my buffs go up regardless of what he tries, because I have more counter moves then he has defensive ones.

 

 

But hey works in my favor when you call for assassin buffs. Maybe I can start doing funny stuff like 2x voltaic on a random search for the healer and oneshot him.

 

 

again, reread my first post. i can **** up baddies myself. but you wont, and i repeat, you WONT EVER drop a healer in an organized team, thats geared and not terrible. 5k on 50? every noob can be fully geared with rank 20. thats not an accomplishment.

 

popping force shroud after first CV is basically ALL IN move, cause vanish without it is useless most of the time. yes, you can burst down a low lvl and die soon after. you can burst even a 50 if his buddies dont react at all and he ignores you. did you ever fought a team with a competent tank around? even if the target is not pre guarded, it will be right after your first cv. and guess what? poof goes your burst and you die.

 

and you are still talking like you go for a healer with no one else around. deception can put up a decent 1v1, but in organized teams, sin is a weak spot outside of tanking tree. you dont have enough burst and you cannot live long enough to be effective.

 

you are squishiest class in the game and melee without out of stealth burst. now where is a logical flaw?

[MarcoMontana]

Exactly. I don't know what Bioware was smoking. You CAN NOT have a class based on anywhere near a much RNG and stacking as the sin/shadow WITHOUT AUTO ATTACK.

Shadows/sins need more on demand burst. Period.

 

P.S. If you check the patch notes you can further tell Bioware has NO IDEA what they are doing. They are buffing our ONLY useful/balanced/polished spec (kinetic tanking).... but not touching the others . hahaha

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obvious Liar is Obvious.

 

 

Translation of quote= I am an operative player and I will post acting as if I am a sin just to pull random unfeasible numbers out of my $@#, that make the sin damage look as bad or close to as OP as operative/scounds.

 

 

I, personally as a high Valor rank Shadow, with over 30% chance to crit, 80% crit damage, and 450 expertise, that those numbers ONLY happen with surge adrenals+Exp buff+Trinket ON LOWBIES and from chained abilities. Not one single. /Fact.

 

ops/scounds do not require all that RNG, Buffs, etc. TO DO HIGHER DAMAGE, AND ON GEARED 50's.

/Fact.

 

Ok, you can have Ops openeing burst, but Ops get your damage mitigation, Knockbacks, and or a gap closer sound fair?

[cloudxshadowbane]

Ok, you can have Ops openeing burst, but Ops get your damage mitigation, Knockbacks, and or a gap closer sound fair?

 

 

 

LOL. Not asking for their opening burst. Currently it is so overpowered it is designed for a game where the norm is having 25k hp+

 

Im asking for Opening burst or just ON DEMAND burst in general as in Cooldown BUT guaranteed burst, NOT RNG. Any operative who even has an ounce of clue can OUT tank a shadow/sin anyway. We have NO AOE Mez, they do. We have NO Healing, THEY DO AND there is NO hybrid tax