Anni 1000x > Carnage for PVP

[ZakPreston]

Had a Feral Druid since 2.0-pre-BC patch, and I remember how powerful we were at the start, but how frustrating arena was after nerfs:

Backstab (Shred) had been buggeg up to WotLK (out of range bug), we had mediocre damage, little CC, no gap closers, only 1 def CD (Bsrkskin), no MS-effect. Our synegry with other classes was awful, except Disc priests. None wanted to play arena with ferals.

But in duels we were almost unbeatable: a good feral with some macroses crushed faces to all except healers and warlocks. No mage, spriest, retri, ench/elem could stand against sustained damage with decent self-heals and no rogue, war or prot-pally could stand long against our bleeds.

 

Maras are much like ferals in TBC: high mobility, loads of buttons, mediocre damage compared to others, bad group utility and very strong 1v1 PvP.

Edited January 11, 2012 by ZakPreston

[Invidisus]

I disagree about the bad mara damage some are claiming? Are you 50 yet? Most of your pvp gear on? Good weapons? We are so very gear dependent and especially weapon dependent it is crazy. The difference it makes is insane.

 

And just like in all games some classes will scale harder than others. And we scale very very hard.

 

I only use wow as a reference cause of its popularity but warriors in pvp for the most part are complete trash unless you have 2 things. Really good gear and a healer.

 

Now on the flip side you can take a decently geared mage and solo q in a BG and do pretty damn well as opposed to a decent gear warrior solo q and u are dying all over the place.

 

If you picked the mara class then you should expect this to be no different. Get a healer friend and tank friend and wait till u hit 50...get the pvp lightsabers and gear set and watch people just fall down as you mow through them. We are late bloomers...as warrior type classes usually are. Nothing has changed.

[Shadinaxx]

I disagree about the bad mara damage some are claiming? Are you 50 yet? Most of your pvp gear on? Good weapons? We are so very gear dependent and especially weapon dependent it is crazy. The difference it makes is insane.

And just like in all games some classes will scale harder than others. And we scale very very hard.

 

I only use wow as a reference cause of its popularity but warriors in pvp for the most part are complete trash unless you have 2 things. Really good gear and a healer.

 

Now on the flip side you can take a decently geared mage and solo q in a BG and do pretty damn well as opposed to a decent gear warrior solo q and u are dying all over the place.

 

If you picked the mara class then you should expect this to be no different. Get a healer friend and tank friend and wait till u hit 50...get the pvp lightsabers and gear set and watch people just fall down as you mow through them. We are late bloomers...as warrior type classes usually are. Nothing has changed.

 

Bolded the most important part of that statement. Maybe not AS noticable in rage spec, but with anni and carnage, everything is based off your weapon damage. Highest priority in upgrades for your marauder should be the main hand. Sucks that I cant get one to save my life, literally, lol. So I remodded using the daily commendations mods, lol, not AS good, but will pass until I get a 136 rating MH, lol

 

As to the WoW referances in vanilla, I remember dps warriors were so hard to play because their rage was broken, the only way to GET any rage was to slash your own wrists, or spec MS for bloodrage mastery.

[DarthBoga]

if we could just all be totally honest here, we really have no idea. no combat log, no dps meters, no real idea what's going on in the numbers. imho, carnage is very good, i regularly top dps charts in pvp and love pve with it, and i don't really get why people hate it so much. i'm not saying the others are bad, just that this is my personal preference, and any argument can be made because it only has to be good enough to convince me, and i'm already there.

so can we just agree that this thread is about personal preference and not actual facts?

[Invidisus]

if we could just all be totally honest here, we really have no idea. no combat log, no dps meters, no real idea what's going on in the numbers. imho, carnage is very good, i regularly top dps charts in pvp and love pve with it, and i don't really get why people hate it so much. i'm not saying the others are bad, just that this is my personal preference, and any argument can be made because it only has to be good enough to convince me, and i'm already there.

so can we just agree that this thread is about personal preference and not actual facts?

 

I have played carnage but I don't play carnage as my main spec YET. However I agree and if i was a betting man...I would bet this spec will scale extremely hard and perform insanely well when you are insanely geared compared to the other specs. Expect this spec to shine very bright in a few months.

 

Also this is what im trying to bring to light here. We should be happy as it seems they are trying to make easy spec very viable which will help us play a spec based on our preference.

 

Now obviously one spec will always perform slightly better than others...but if they can keep the other 2 really close to that "one" great tree...then people can play what they want.

 

For instance lets PRETEND the rage tree is the best tree. Player X is a decent gamer and plays it cause its the BEST!! Player Y picks annihilation cause he hates how the rage tree plays and prefers the other tree. Player Y has more skilll....Player Y will always out perform player X cause the 2 trees are close enough that skill makes a difference.

 

This is what BW is trying to achieve.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Invidisus

[Nmaharg]

if we could just all be totally honest here, we really have no idea. no combat log, no dps meters, no real idea what's going on in the numbers. imho, carnage is very good, i regularly top dps charts in pvp and love pve with it, and i don't really get why people hate it so much. i'm not saying the others are bad, just that this is my personal preference, and any argument can be made because it only has to be good enough to convince me, and i'm already there.

so can we just agree that this thread is about personal preference and not actual facts?

 

It has nothing to do with the dmg. It has to do with the utility Anni offers. A 4 sec lockout on a sec 6 cooldown is a must have imo. A party wide defense and speed bonus (15 seconds of 80% speed) is another must have, I've single handly have won hut ball matches because of it. Taking no dmg in camo, means you no longer have to worry about getting knocked into fire or having to avoid certain aoe mechanics in raids. A raid wide heal that hits regardless of how far your group members are from you. My guild is constantly telling me how often it saves them, every time you pop beserk you're healing your entire raid 6%, thats huge seeing how it's up every 12~ seconds. If all you care about is dmg then roll a merc BH.

[Shadinaxx]

If all you care about is dmg then roll a merc BH.

 

Well, BH is a utility class, they have direct heals, and/or can tank, and their dps AC can still wear heavy armor, granting them more defense.

 

Marauder is what's considered a "pure" dps class, and therefore should not be outdpsed by a hybrid dps class. That's the point most people are talking about. The utility of anni is nice, but it's not enough utility to make up for pure dps, and you're talking about a single spec, the other two specs dont have ANY heals (unless you count rage optional spec choices).

 

Go compare the BASE weapon dmg of a BH main hand 136 rating weapon, and a marauder main hand lightsaber of the same rating. Then compare that to the simple mechanics that ranged can keep dpsing from range (go figure, lol) without moving except to avoid aoes, where melee has to chase targets while staying out of aoes, ultimately limiting their "time on" dps. That is why we have such a world apart in dps between BH and mara

[Nmaharg]

Well, BH is a utility class, they have direct heals, and/or can tank, and their dps AC can still wear heavy armor, granting them more defense.

 

Marauder is what's considered a "pure" dps class, and therefore should not be outdpsed by a hybrid dps class. That's the point most people are talking about. The utility of anni is nice, but it's not enough utility to make up for pure dps, and you're talking about a single spec, the other two specs dont have ANY heals (unless you count rage optional spec choices).

 

Go compare the BASE weapon dmg of a BH main hand 136 rating weapon, and a marauder main hand lightsaber of the same rating. Then compare that to the simple mechanics that ranged can keep dpsing from range (go figure, lol) without moving except to avoid aoes, where melee has to chase targets while staying out of aoes, ultimately limiting their "time on" dps. That is why we have such a world apart in dps between BH and mara

 

I've done all of EV, and there isn't a single fight that Melee is at a disadvantage over ranged. Even bonecrusher is melee friendly cause his hitbox is like the entire room. I raid with 2 DPS BHs and they offer very little utility outside battle res. While we have speed boosts, defensive boosts and a heroism.

[VictorLototskyy]

Only meeting XXX times geared troopers/healers and trying to kill them at Carnage/Rage specs will proove you how useless those specs are.

 

Only Annihilation with dot's, 1m charge and few other utilities gives you at least some minor chance to do some real single-target damage.

 

All this theory crafting is useless until you try every spec for a few days and once you do, you won't ask what's better.

[Nmaharg]

Only meeting XXX times geared troopers/healers and trying to kill them at Carnage/Rage specs will proove you how useless those specs are.

 

Only Annihilation with dot's, 1m charge and few other utilities gives you at least some minor chance to do some real single-target damage.

 

All this theory crafting is useless until you try every spec for a few days and once you do, you won't ask what's better.

 

Regardless of gear powertechs/vanguards will always dominate us. With there instants and that 8 sec immune to snare buff a good one is impossible to kill. They are our counter. It's the only class I can't solo.

[VictorLototskyy]

Regardless of gear powertechs/vanguards will always dominate us. With there instants and that 8 sec immune to snare buff a good one is impossible to kill. They are our counter. It's the only class I can't solo.

 

Right, but with Annihilation you will be much bigger pain in the *** then with other specs.

 

At the end it all goes to a fact that you will be kited and then we have:

- Annihilation: 30m, 12 sec CD force charge which gives you 4 rage, interrupt and stun.

- Carnage: 10m, 12 sec CD deadly throw which eat rage, don't interrupt and root

- Rage: you get nothing and above that you get quite crappy Smash animation which very often hit noone when enemy kites you

 

There're several more benefits at Annihilation comparing to other specs but one above is really makes a difference on current end-game PVP.

Edited January 11, 2012 by VictorLototskyy

[darthmorbous]

Annihilation isnt about burst, although you can achieve it with the right combos. Its more about control. Subjugation is one of the best talents of all 3 trees put together.

 

With that, roar, 0 range leap, and choke you can rotate interrupts like no tomorrow. Which is what beating good players is all about. Once you get it down you can literally toy with people. Sure you may take a little longer to kill em but your in control of the fight the whole time.

 

Plus Ann spec is hand dows the BEST fury builder by FAR. Berserk for ann spec is amazing, coupled with a frenzy right after and a medpack you basically have 2 full healthbars they gata get through, plus your undying rage, and ann talented camo which btw helps tons in pve.

 

rage is cute for the big numbers but a well played annihilation is a monster. The dots, heals and short cooldown interrupt is too good to pass up

 

Oh yeah! havent lost ONCE in duels/open world.

a bit less damage in WZ though than rage, bout 20k , but who cares?

open world is the truth ...at least in rp-pvp server

cheers

[Nmaharg]

Right, but with Annihilation you will be much bigger pain in the *** then with other specs.

 

At the end it all goes to a fact that you will be kited and then we have:

- Annihilation: 30m, 12 sec CD force charge which gives you 4 rage, interrupt and stun.

- Carnage: 10m, 12 sec CD deadly throw which eat rage, don't interrupt and root

- Rage: you get nothing and above that you get quite crappy Smash animation which very often hit noone when enemy kites you

 

There're several more benefits at Annihilation comparing to other specs but one above is really makes a difference on current end-game PVP.

 

I agree. I still wish these *********** were easier to kill lol.

[EasymodeX]

At the end it all goes to a fact that you will be kited and then we have:

- Annihilation: 30m, 12 sec CD force charge which gives you 4 rage, interrupt and stun.

- Carnage: 10m, 12 sec CD deadly throw which eat rage, don't interrupt and root

- Rage: you get nothing and above that you get quite crappy Smash animation which very often hit noone when enemy kites you

 

There're several more benefits at Annihilation comparing to other specs but one above is really makes a difference on current end-game PVP.

 

Your list is pretty terrible. Annihilation is the spec with the worst melee contact time of the 3.

[Nmaharg]

Your list is pretty terrible. Annihilation is the spec with the worst melee contact time of the 3.

 

They are always in contact because of the dots rolling.

[VictorLototskyy]

Your list is pretty terrible. Annihilation is the spec with the worst melee contact time of the 3.

 

Then we playing different games or you didn't have enough experience on fighting with geared guys.

 

I used Rage spec for a while topping with dmg 9/10 warzones (including several 500k+), then was a Carnage where I was still topping 9/10 and did 300k+ on regular basis with scream crit and gore.

 

But when it comes to premade level pvp Annihilation is a best option and example I gave with controle difference is just one of several benefits which this tree has.

[EasymodeX]

VictorLototskyy, you seem to have a severe case of cognitive dissonance, so I will attempt to break it down for you like I would for a child in order for you to apply the right discussion to the right argument:

 

1. I agree that Annihilation has a specific role in anti-healer leg hump, due to its faster interrupts and more interrupts via a short charge. In addition, Rage suffers somewhat against skilled opponents that can counter a predictable burst sequence. Therefore, Annihilation is a highly effective choice against tough target that insist on not dying at a satisfactory rate.

 

2. You are categorically incorrect in your conclusion that Annihilation has better melee contact time in the context of "not getting kited". The only anti-kite capability Annihilation provides is -3s on charge. That's it. Here is a more realistic comparison of the 3 specs with regards to their ability to stay humping a leg that attracts them:

 

 

Annihilation

 

- 12s force charge + root (not a stun, just FYI)

- Force Choke

- Force camo 30% run speed

- Moderately high uptime Predation due to enhanced Fury generation

 

Carnage

 

- 15s force charge + root

- Force Choke

- Force camo 30% run speed with optional root/snare break

- 12s cooldown 3s root

- Ravage root

- Passive 15% run speed

 

Rage

 

- 15s force charge + root

- Force Choke

- Force camo 30% run speed

- 20/40% run speed buff on Obliterate

- 10m 50-90% snare on an 18s cooldown

- Very high uptime Predation due to lolol Predation

 

 

When you compare your list of anti-kite capability to mine, it's pretty clear that mine is both longer and ... has more girth. As is clearly evident, Annihilation sucks for anti-kiting compared to Carnage and Rage. So, when the topic at hand is kiting, then Annihilation is at a disadvantage.

[Selixx]

I personally prefer carnage over the other two specs. Rage was the spec I initially played, while everyone was humping over carnage a couple weeks ago, and then switched to carnage to see what all the fuss was about. I was more impressed with carnages ability to stick to a target, and with massacre, I feel that carnage puts out for more consistent damage, as well as very good burst with execute, force scream crit, and massacre spam. I also am impressed with Carnage's consistency of burst, every 9 seconds you have force scream off CD, which is a 3k+ hit easily, oftentimes 4k or higher. It may not compare to the AOE 5k+ hit of rage, but it is far more consistent.

 

With annihilation, you drop all the burst, for increased sustained damage, which for pvp has proven to be lacking in other games. I think annihilation gets some nice tools for pvp, but really, the reason it is so successful (imo) is because most people in pvp are not fully aware of everyone around them. That usually means you can stick to your opponent long enough to get your bleeds off, which is partly why the spec seems so powerful. I would say that anni will suffer more in 1v1 situations then rage, and especially vs carnage (which I feel is very accomplished for 1v1).

Edited January 11, 2012 by Selixx

[VictorLototskyy]

You only missing a point that all those movement speed, slows etc are crap because with a proper enemy you are always slowed/snared/rooted and no-range Force Charge is a best/only way to close that gap while you're alive.

 

You also missed 30% slow from Rupture.

 

It seems like you pircked Rage/Carnage, doing well, but didn't try Annihilation. All those % for slow/run means nothing when it goes to real life and real PVP.

[Maxxacre]

Not to detract from the argument at hand... but if you all step back for just a moment, don't you all think it's actually a good sign that there are people in this discussion who are each saying a different one of the three trees is actually best? I mean... there's really no general consensus that one particular tree is absolute garbage for PvP and has no real place. That means there are options... and that each of the 3 specs, while one may be more efficient than another when your really break it down, can be successfully used.

 

I think a lot of it really boils down to play style though. If you break down the numbers and make a logical conclusion that one tree is actually theoretically the most efficient for PvP, that's fine... but if your particular playstyle isn't conducive of success with that build, then you're not going to make it really work. Each player has to build off of his own strengths, and I think that each of these 3 specs sort of allow you to do that. Good news, IMO.

[Invidisus]

I personally prefer carnage over the other two specs. Rage was the spec I initially played, while everyone was humping over carnage a couple weeks ago, and then switched to carnage to see what all the fuss was about. I was more impressed with carnages ability to stick to a target, and with massacre, I feel that carnage puts out for more consistent damage, as well as very good burst with execute, force scream crit, and massacre spam.

 

With annihilation, you drop all the burst, for increased sustained damage, which for pvp has proven to be lacking in other games. I think annihilation gets some nice tools for pvp, but really, the reason it is so successful (imo) is because most people in pvp are not fully aware of everyone around them. That usually means you can stick to your opponent long enough to get your bleeds off, which is partly why the spec seems so powerful. I would say that anni will suffer more in 1v1 situations then rage, and especially vs carnage (which I feel is very accomplished for 1v1).

 

Don't give up on annihilation burst. Just watched Stmp do an 8k annihilation with a 7k vicious throw to follow it up. Not trying to claim the burst is better than any of the other 2 specs...but it can compete.

[Maxxacre]

no-range Force Charge is a best/only way to close that gap while you're alive.

 

Do you know a lot of ranged players who can consistently fight against you between 5-9 meters at all times? Because I don't.

 

If you're talking about being kited, that's the range you're talking about with Force Charge now. At 4m you are in melee range, and at 10m you are able to Force Charge. So that means a player would literally have to maintain an exact distance of 5-9 meters to avoid both your melee attacks and your standard gap closer.

 

Sorry, but there's really nobody that can actually do that...

Edited January 11, 2012 by Maxxacre

[EasymodeX]

You only missing a point that all those movement speed, slows etc are crap because with a proper enemy you are always slowed/snared/rooted and no-range Force Charge is a best/only way to close that gap while you're alive.

 

Lol.

 

 

You also missed 30% slow from Rupture.

 

You actually picked up that talent? What did you drop to pick it up? I'm sure it'll be entertaining to discuss how you should respec.

 

 

It seems like you pircked Rage/Carnage, doing well, but didn't try Annihilation. All those % for slow/run means nothing when it goes to real life and real PVP.

 

1. I played Annihilation from level 10 through 50, and then for about 10 valor ranks after hitting 50 so I could burn in the other specs. I've played Carnage and Rage for about 20 valor ranks each. Now, I will be switching back to Annihilation soon (I did not have my 136s back when I ran Anni prior).

 

2. Apparently slows and run speed mean nothing to the Marauder in "real life and real PVP", and yet your entire argument the paragraph above cites "you are always slowed/snared/rooted". So which is it? Do snares and roots and movespeed matter, or do snares and roots and movespeed not matter?

 

You seem to be mentally divided on the subject. That is not healthy.

 

 

don't you all think it's actually a good sign that there are people in this discussion who are each saying a different one of the three trees is actually best?

 

Sure, the variety is good. But one note: if anyone claims that one of the specs is "BEST", they are an idiot. All 3 specs have clear advantages and disadvantages and each are "best" for specific situations.

[Selixx]

Don't give up on annihilation burst. Just watched Stmp do an 8k annihilation with a 7k vicious throw to follow it up. Not trying to claim the burst is better than any of the other 2 specs...but it can compete.

 

Right, but was that player a fully geared out champ/centurion L50? I understand people can achieve burst with the spec, but the consistency of the burst is the real question. Rage provides burst ~ every 20 seconds, and Carnage every 9. Consistency of burst is a huge issue, because if you can only burst once a minute, you are not very useful. You cant burst through a dps before a healer gets to him, and you can't burst down a healer. I'm not saying annihilation is a bad spec. I have a marauder friend who I play with, who loves annihilation, and he absolutely murders people with it, but he doesn't have consistent burst. He's ok with that, and I'm ok with that. I think all the specs are good, they all have a place, and it's personal preference. I just love the consistency that Carnage provides. It has very good consistent damage, and also very consistent burst. You lack the group utility of the other two specs, but I feel the tradeoff is worth it.

[Soulfighter]

You actually picked up that talent? What did you drop to pick it up? I'm sure it'll be entertaining to discuss how you should respec.

 

 

if you don't take the 30% slow on rupture you're just stupid man

 

 

rank 51 marauder here, tested all 3.

 

Annihilation is the best.

 

Rage is really good but with the current ingame abilities delay and against laggers smash will miss half the time and lot of classes have defensive buffs against kinetic dmg, when you fight groups of 50s that use their buff you dmg is really lowered (against another marauder smash will deals no dmg because of saber ward (-50%) and the aoe dmg reduction spec (-30%))

 

On the other hand annihilation deals great dmg on a single target; since it's bleeding dmg it goes through armor; it gives you great survability thanks the heals (45-50k heals on average game but you can do a lot more) and you build fury super fast, it's just amazing and more consistent then Rage.