SWTOR Arenas: How it Should be Done

[Zappa]

Proof? He said that if he could go back in time they would design the game to be an e-sport. Atleast WoW designers think that the game needs arenas. Here is quotes for the very same article you posted:

 

 

" I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense. Right now, WoW has a bit of a schizophrenic philosophy behind it, and we're trying to figure out how to guide it. "

 

 

"we have a passionate, large audience that enjoys it - the Arena, the e-sport "

 

 

"If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there."

 

 

 

 

So as you see, taken from very same article you linked, they aint thnking that arena is or was a bad idea as a concept. It wasnt a good idea to add up after wards, WoW should have had arena from launch and classes designed differently to ease up the balance between PvP and PVE.

 

After reading that article, there is a definitive undertone of regret for ever making them. He sounds like he's sugarcoating what he is saying to avoid bad press, while still getting the message across of regret.

[Forsbacka]

It's not a choice if it offers the best gear in the game. It also further kills World PvP, which the game is already lacking because it's not really rewarded. Look at WoW, there's ZERO world PvP. People sitting waiting for ques with the same group make up (until a better make-up comes along then it's reroll time) and pretty much the same process over and over. It really kills any randomness in PvP. Randomness is half of the excitement.

 

Depends on server, there is very hectic world pvp scene on some servers, like Outlands where is loads of city raids and world PvP happening in daily zones. What comes to this game, i havent seen a single republic player so far on second most populated PvP server in EU outside warzones.

[JPunx]

Yes, cause we ALL left because of arenas...what about the people who enjoy instanced PvP? Why can't open world and arena exist together? It's not like they're going to force you to play arenas.

 

I'm not talking about PvPers (you WERE bored, admit it) leaving right now. I'm talking about when Arenas originally took over as endgame PvP content and killed world PvP. They lost A LOT of PvPers. This was years ago. These people still PvP in MMOs, just not in WoW Arenas. Let's call them, the OG WoW PvPers.

[Zappa]

For the masses, there is no choice, only the illusion of choice. If arena presents the best gear, or the easiest way to acquire top tier gear - it will be done by the masses. It is why people win trade on Ilum, it is why people farm warzones while simultaneously complaining about how boring they are.

 

 

People talk about how adding something can't possibly hurt the game, it can. Look no further than warzones versus world PvP. If instanced PvP offers better or equal rewards, world PvP is universally a ghost town unless the impetus for doing it isn't the rewards directly, ie: Competing over a rare spawn, resources, territory control, intersecting leveling zones etc.

 

Personally I go to Ilum to take the pigs out to slaughter;).

And yes I get scolded for it vehemently. It is a PvP zone, on a PvP server no less. It is a bad system that promotes trading, yes, but while others exploit that in a boring, mundane task, I'm enjoying world PvP. They aren't enjoying anything.

 

for the record, I love huttball. Even after playing 10029283 games. I've never gotten tired of football these past 15 years, and huttball reminds me of it.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Zappa

[Forsbacka]

After reading that article, there is a definitive undertone of regret for ever making them. He sounds like he's sugarcoating what he is saying to avoid bad press, while still getting the message across of regret.

 

 

Well he aint saying they regret arena as concept in MMos, he says that they regret implenting it in the game afterwards causing balance problems.

[nschlan]

I'm not talking about PvPers (you WERE bored, admit it) leaving right now. I'm talking about when Arenas originally took over as endgame PvP content and killed world PvP. They lost A LOT of PvPers. This was years ago. These people still PvP in MMOs, just not in WoW Arenas. Let's call them, the OG WoW PvPers.

 

Umm, no, I wasn't bored with WoW PvP. I actually enjoy competitive PvP. Why shouldn't people who enjoy arenas get them but people who want open world get incentives for it? No one's forcing people to play arenas. If you love open world so much, get off your ***, get your guild together, and have fun ganking lowbies. If arenas are implemented, you still have the open world option. If arenas aren't implemented, we don't get the option we want for PvP. How is that fair?

[Ashurah]

Proof? He said that if he could go back in time they would design the game to be an e-sport. Atleast WoW designers think that the game needs arenas. Here is quotes for the very same article you posted:

 

 

" I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense. Right now, WoW has a bit of a schizophrenic philosophy behind it, and we're trying to figure out how to guide it. "

 

 

"we have a passionate, large audience that enjoys it - the Arena, the e-sport "

 

 

"If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there."

 

 

 

 

So as you see, taken from very same article you linked, they aint thnking that arena is or was a bad idea as a concept. It wasnt a good idea to add up after wards, WoW should have had arena from launch and classes designed differently to ease up the balance between PvP and PVE.

 

 

Just because later on in their article they are trying to soften the blow to pvp arena players to the harsh truth they revealed, does not mean its a good idea - There is a difference between committing to a bad idea, and not making the mistake in the first place.. Arena in itself is a bad idea, changes to arena effect way to much of the game, which is something the wow devs found out.

 

So I guess the real question is

 

Why implement a system that a small portion of the community will use that takes a ridiculous amount of resources to manage however will more than likely effect greatly on the larger portion of the community?

 

I would much prefer a proper open world pvp system

[Bionixx]

Zybak,

 

just to give you some background from where I'm coming, it's quite similar to you. I played WoW for 7 years as a Holy paladin and although I did some PvP, I was mostly focused on endgame raiding. Btw, they did kind of do the bolster/weaken system a couple of times with Tanks by reducing their mitigation in Sunwell and ICC but what you are suggesting is alright. Blizz always said that they didn't want to change the PvE and PvP aspects so much that it would be like playing 2 different games with all your abilities doing different things in PvE vs PvP.

 

I really enjoy your ideas but there are 2 things I don't completely agree with. First is the no rewards thing. Now, I am assuming that you mean no arena specific rewards but you'd still be getting the same rewards you'd get in a warzone and in fact I think they can do wonders in Arena with the medal system. That's fine. However, I think that some vanity stuff like titles, mounts and pets is fine as long as it's not gear that will give you an advantage over other people. That is however just my opinion and I understand your concern with people exploiting it and be willing to pay a lot of real money for these extremely rare rewards. I completely agree that it is just stupid and shouldn't be allowed. Does it happen on a large scale though? I'd say not really so maybe for the sake of giving people at least some incentive it's an acceptable evil.

 

The other thing is the map design. While I agree that raised platforms in this game would not work nearly as well as they do in WoW, I disagree with your suggestion for situational hazards and possible effects in the environment (such as power ups). I believe that those should be included. Without them, PvP comes down to people just using their optimal rotations against that class/spec and that can be carried out in the open world just as easily. What you want is people having situational awareness and being able to capitalize on a new variable introduced in the game. It is the ability to make the right split second decision that, in my opinion, defines a good PvPer.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Bionixx

[Forsbacka]

Just because later on in their article they are trying to soften the blow to pvp arena players to the harsh truth they revealed, does not mean its a good idea - There is a difference between committing to a bad idea, and not making the mistake in the first place.. Arena in itself is a bad idea, changes to arena effect way to much of the game, which is something the wow devs found out.

 

So I guess the real question is

 

Why implement a system that a small portion of the community will use that takes a ridiculous amount of resources to manage however will more than likely effect greatly on the larger portion of the community?

 

I would much prefer a proper open world pvp system

 

That is your oppinion. If so many people loves world PvP so much, they would be doing it.

[Zappa]

Just because later on in their article they are trying to soften the blow to pvp arena players to the harsh truth they revealed, does not mean its a good idea - There is a difference between committing to a bad idea, and not making the mistake in the first place.. Arena in itself is a bad idea, changes to arena effect way to much of the game, which is something the wow devs found out.

 

So I guess the real question is

 

Why implement a system that a small portion of the community will use that takes a ridiculous amount of resources to manage however will more than likely effect greatly on the larger portion of the community?

 

I would much prefer a proper open world pvp system

 

Yes, the more time Bioware/Mythic spend on a great world PvP system, the more arenas will be a forgotten thing of the past. That has been the goal since day one. I surely can't wait to see what is in store, and I hope everyone here support it too. World PvP is just much more fulfilling, especially in a star wars game. The possibilities are endless.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Zappa

[JPunx]

Peak of the game was in wrath in pvp and pve subwise and im sure that competition and some meaningfull way to measure "skills" in PvP that it added to game instead of vanilla BG crap bringed much more real PvPrs than it alianated.

 

I seem to remember most people hitting raids in wrath and arenas weren't really on the top of their list anymore cause it was kind of getting boring for a lot.

 

Vanilla/early-mid BC was actually the peak. PvPers were all over the PvP servers. Ganking, PvPing outside of towns, running into people everywhere. People actually went to other continents looking for PvP, it's not really like that anymore (ok, an occasional decked out player/group running outside of Org maybe). Half the people on WoW PvP servers run away now, it's carebear land for the wannabes.

 

People were open to Arenas at first, then people noticed it killed one of the funnest elements of PvP servers almost completely.

 

City raids aren't what I'm talking about, if you were there, you'd know what it was like. It was fun. World PvP is a ghostown compared to early WoW. Didn't Blizzard themselves even question whether Arenas were a good idea? It's impossible to balance and just causes an endless facet for QQ.

Edited January 11, 2012 by JPunx

[Forsbacka]

Yes, the more time Bioware/Mythic spend on a great world PvP system, the more arenas will be a forgotten thing of the past. That has been the goal since day one. I surely can't wait to see what is in store, and I hope everyone here support it too. World PvP is just much more fulfilling, especially in a star wars game. The possibilities are endless.

 

How can you say that? Its clear that people dont want to world pvp. Or do you want to give some incentive to do it in terms of gear rewards? So people would do it only for gear? like they do arena? or rated BGs? or normal warzones?

[nschlan]

Yes, the more time Bioware/Mythic spend on a great world PvP system, the more arenas will be a forgotten thing of the past. That has been the goal since day one. I surely can't wait to see what is in store, and I hope everyone here support it too. World PvP is just much more fulfilling, especially in a star wars game. The possibilities are endless.

 

You say World PvP is more fulfilling. I say arenas are. Your argument is pretty weak here. Like the guy above said, if you guys like open world so much, stop whining about arenas and go do it.

[Zappa]

Yes, the more time Bioware/Mythic spend on a great world PvP system, the more arenas will be a forgotten thing of the past. That has been the goal since day one. I surely can't wait to see what is in store, and I hope everyone here support it too. World PvP is just much more fulfilling, especially in a star wars game. The possibilities are endless.

 

Also that is another thing. Arenas have 0 place in star wars lore, canon and non canon. (The pit fight is episode 6 so doesn't count). Its a galactic war, which is why huttball is not fought against the opposing faction. Empire would not be playing games with republic period. LucasArts would definitely have a word to say about that, and so would star wars fans.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Zappa

[nschlan]

Also that is another thing. Arenas have 0 place in star wars lore, cannon and non cannon. (The pit fight is episode 6 so doesn't count). Its a galactic war, which is why huttball is not fought against the opposing faction. Empire would not be playing games with republic period. LucasArts would definitely have a word to say about that, and so would star wars fans.

 

Arenas have no place in Star Wars lore and yet you admit that the pit fight was in Episode 6 and could count as an example of arenas. Last time I checked, Episode 6 was part of Star Wars. Arenas can easily be spun as captives forced to fight gladiator style for crowds in a Hutt's palace or some such. Also, you're missing the fact that we really don't care how they fit into lore, you're the only one so far who thinks it's an issue. Your arguments are getting weaker.

[Ashurah]

That is your oppinion. If so many people loves world PvP so much, they would be doing it.

 

It may be my oppinion, however just wait untill they release a system that rewards world pvp properly. Incentive is key.

[Forsbacka]

I seem to remember most people hitting raids in wrath and arenas weren't really on the top of their list anymore cause it was kind of getting boring for a lot.

 

Vanilla/early-mid BC was actually the peak. PvPers were all over the PvP servers. Ganking, PvPing outside of towns, running into people everywhere. People actually went to other continents looking for PvP, it's not really like that anymore (ok, an occasional decked out player/group running outside of Org maybe). Half the people on WoW PvP servers run away now, it's carebear land for the wannabes.

 

People were open to Arenas at first, then people noticed it killed one of the funnest elements of PvP servers almost completely.

 

City raids aren't what I'm talking about, if you were there, you'd know what it was like. It was fun. World PvP is a ghostown compared to early WoW. Didn't Blizzard themselves even question whether Arenas were a good idea? It's impossible to balance and just causes an endless facet for QQ.

 

 

Well, tarren mill fights was kinda cool back in the days, except it was horrid lag fests and we crashed server many times on various world pvp events. What bugs me that you say that arenas killed world pvp, Wasnt it really cause people wanted to actually do BGs and arenas more than world pvp or otherwise they would have continued on tarren mill fights?

 

When i said that blizz got lot more subs from PvP players due arena than lost i didnt mean world pvp players. Overall there was much more people doing PvP in BGs and arenas in wrath than there was people doing BGs and world pvp in vanilla.

[nschlan]

It may be my oppinion, however just wait untill they release a system that rewards world pvp properly. Incentive is key.

 

How is that different from the incentives offered for arenas or other forms of competitive instanced PvP?

[Forsbacka]

Also that is another thing. Arenas have 0 place in star wars lore, canon and non canon. (The pit fight is episode 6 so doesn't count). Its a galactic war, which is why huttball is not fought against the opposing faction. Empire would not be playing games with republic period. LucasArts would definitely have a word to say about that, and so would star wars fans.

 

RPGs has shown over the years that lore aint very important to majority of PvPrs.

[Zappa]

Arenas have no place in Star Wars lore and yet you admit that the pit fight was in Episode 6 and could count as an example of arenas. Last time I checked, Episode 6 was part of Star Wars. Arenas can easily be spun as captives forced to fight gladiator style for crowds in a Hutt's palace or some such. Also, you're missing the fact that we really don't care how they fit into lore, you're the only one so far who thinks it's an issue. Your arguments are getting weaker.

 

The community that actually prefers canon is very, very strong. In no way would fans, nor LucasArts sport the idea that during the galactic wars, Jedi and Sith, empire and republic are playing games with each other. LucasArts has the final say in everything in this game. I just don't see them being for it, no matter how many Hutt undertones you throw into it.

 

You may not care about lore, but a lot of people do. My arguments never were weak, they are compounding onto the fact that there won't be arenas, for various reasons. There are multiple reasons why they shouldn't exist, many very good ones, and not very many that they should, other than one single crowd, that may actually find world PvP just as enjoyable as it was in vanilla wow.

[ArchAUstin]

Also that is another thing. Arenas have 0 place in star wars lore, canon and non canon. (The pit fight is episode 6 so doesn't count). Its a galactic war, which is why huttball is not fought against the opposing faction. Empire would not be playing games with republic period. LucasArts would definitely have a word to say about that, and so would star wars fans.

 

Lol is that a joke, trying to argue arenas have no place in star wars lore....

 

Fanboys dont belong on the pvp forum isn't there a lore section?

[Forsbacka]

The community that actually prefers canon is very, very strong. In no way would fans, nor LucasArts sport the idea that during the galactic wars, Jedi and Sith, empire and republic are playing games with each other. LucasArts has the final say in everything in this game. I just don't see them being for it, no matter how many Hutt undertones you throw into it.

 

You may not care about lore, but a lot of people do. My arguments never were weak, they are compounding onto the fact that there won't be arenas, for various reasons. There are multiple reasons why they shouldn't exist, many very good ones, and not very many that they should, other than one single crowd, that may actually find world PvP just as enjoyable as it was in vanilla wow.

 

 

Well since this aint 2004 and masses are used to certain things, world pvp doesnt seem to be very popular amongst the players. Although if there was good rewards for doing it... but we dont want that? right? Doing something that they dont like only for rewards?

[Zappa]

Lol is that a joke, trying to argue arenas have no place in star wars lore....

 

Fanboys dont belong on the pvp forum isn't there a lore section?

 

Man, you guys don't know how ol George and LucasArts do business when it comes to star wars, his baby.

 

To him, his lore> over any of us. That is fact.

[Ashurah]

How is that different from the incentives offered for arenas or other forms of competitive instanced PvP?

 

I think you misinterpreted what I was getting at....

 

 

At the moment there is hardly any incentive for world pvp in SWTOR (WoW open world pvp was killed with flying mounts, having to kill 500 people for 1 bg's worth of honor and the list goes on) - and im not talking about the dodgey system they have implimented on Illum atm.

 

When there is PROPER incentive for world PvP, and when there is a REAL world pvp system in place, you will find that the minority will be the people crying for an arena system.

[Forsbacka]

The community that actually prefers canon is very, very strong. In no way would fans, nor LucasArts sport the idea that during the galactic wars, Jedi and Sith, empire and republic are playing games with each other. LucasArts has the final say in everything in this game. .

 

 

Mark my words, this year were gonna see some things added to this game, mods, combat log, damage meters, arena and LFG tool.