Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[GreymaneAlpha]

I want to touch on a few things you stated as I wholeheartedly agree and feel the need to elaborate. When you mentioned that developers of WoW came from EQ, I would also like to touch on the fact that every time a new expansion rolls out, even dating back to early development, Blizzard has ALWAYS invited top raiders to come and check things out. I remember there being reports that Blizzard was flying world ranked guilds to come help test and provide feedback for future content.

 

That's one of the most baffling things about SWTOR: the seeming lack of input from hardcore players from other MMOs. "Cinematic combat" is probably the most damning example: anyone that had ever played any MMO competitively before would have been appalled at the idea of giving animations precedence over actions. It's such a mind-blowingly stupid thing to do that it just completely confounds me.

 

Coming from WoW, I expect that when a cast bar finishes, the ability goes off. I should not have to stand for another half-second in a warzone while my healing animation finishes and the server deigns to tell me that the ability had completely gone through before I can start moving again. If I try to mount, I should be mounted and able to move WHEN THE BAR IS FINISHED. Not a second later when the mount appears. In warcraft, you float around for a half second moving at your mounted speed. Does it look silly? Maybe. Does it feel natural? Absolutely.

 

Or Force Wave: who the hell thought that it was a good idea to have a clutch AoE knockback ability on a two-second hidden cast time?!

 

Even very basic lightsaber attacks: sure, I guess it's cool that when I hit my sage's crappy auto-attack, three animated swings lead to three hits at three distinct times. Or rather, it was cool for about two minutes. That's the kind of thing that impresses idiots watching youtube videos from E3. Once you try to hit someone in PvP you quickly wish had WoW's combat system, where damage occurs WHEN YOU HIT THE BUTTON, not a second later.

 

The engine is very poorly made to have all these various 'bugs' that the developers keep finding for responsiveness....but even if they find every bug and optimize every routine, there will still be the throttle limiter of "cinematic combat" that will make the game forever feel awkward. And this WILL impact the long term survival of the game. And for what? So that a few more super-casual noobs will buy the game when it comes out but never play to 50, never pay for more than a few months, and probably never buy any future expansions?

 

Any experienced, competitive MMO player would have vetoed the 'cinematic combat' idea, if there was one on the development team. Mass Effect 2 players, however, probably would have thought it was a fine idea. I think we can guess which players were on the development team.

[diantoscr]

this game is perched on the tip of a needle right now... on one side is near perfect success, on the other is catastrophic failure. and what is holding it in the balance right now is this issue.

[Xcore]

Unbelievable post. It is uncanny how literally inside my head you are. It is clear that every ounce of feeling I have towards this issue is not only felt by you as well, but meticulously explained to perfection.

 

I want to touch on a few things you stated as I wholeheartedly agree and feel the need to elaborate. When you mentioned that developers of WoW came from EQ, I would also like to touch on the fact that every time a new expansion rolls out, even dating back to early development, Blizzard has ALWAYS invited top raiders to come and check things out. I remember there being reports that Blizzard was flying world ranked guilds to come help test and provide feedback for future content.

 

This is something BioWare, if not already, needs to consider. The budget is there and they need to select those who 'feel' this problem but also come from a ranked perspectives. Being a world 327 player myself and 2x gladiator, I can tell you that the problem stems further than what they mentioned and even what others do too. I sit in a vent channel with other members who claim they don't feel it on certain classes, but then want to claim priority as they feel they truly understand hardcore or competitive play. But I will state this, no self-respected TRUE competitive player does not 'feel' the issue and/or takes this game seriously because of it. Going back and speaking to ranked friends, all are laughing at the lack of control the game produces and refuse to ever come over unless it is fixed (but they expect it NOT to be). This brings me to my regurgitated statement that the rush to complete content is futile considering the competition is severely lacking and that regardless of you perspective, experience or ability to 'feel' the issue--it is STILL there. Like I have said 10000 times, even when you are not targeting anything, alone in a phased area, if you press your ability that will obviously cause red text to state "No Target"; there is still a slight delay from the time you press that key, to the point the ability on the UI lights up ending with the red text. It may be a smaller delay than the one expressed in the 'conditions' BioWare vows helping cause the issue, IT IS STILL THERE. Every ounce of delay needs to be fixed. Which is why I lit up with joy when Xcore explained how important sound plays a part, but followed by continued disappointment realizing this is another subject BioWare needs to address in order to achieve a full resolution.

 

The developers first mistake was the focus on a small percentage of MMO game play (leveling). I do not know why developers feel the need to act as if they know the 'secret formula' to competing with WoW, yet boast that it is removing the grind. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. WoW is successful because their end game content is tight and this is based on one simple fundamental factor--combat is fluid.

 

Combat fluidity is:

 

• The singular reason WoW's leveling experience is bearable and quite fun (although repetitive).
   
  
• The reason you are excited to get your next ability
   
  
• The reason why you feel satisfied upon defeating an opponent in a battleground
   
  
• The reason why you feel satisfied upon defeating an opponent in open world
   
  
• The reason why you feel satisfied upon defeating an opponent in a duel
   
  
• The reason why you feel satisfied upon defeating an opponent in a arena
   
  
• The reason why you feel satisfied upon defeating a boss in an instance
   
  
• The reason why you feel satisfied upon defeating trash in an organized fashion
  

 

The list goes on and on. Even misdirecting to friends or fooling around in stealth as I aggro and shift threat to my tank scaring him. I can literally go on forever as to how a fluid system severely directs players to an extraordinarily entertaining experience. This is the TRUE formula of success for an MMO.

 

BioWare's position and waste of developing hours focusing on leveling frustrates me as the writing was on the wall since day one. End game content is what makes a long lasting MMO, but this does not stem from content. Even though there are separate departments and I applaud BioWare for trying to show the community that they will be steadily releasing content; I can only frown at the obvious display of inexperience. An inexperience that stems exactly from what you state. That it is apparent BioWare developers do not come from a true knowledgeable player's perspective.

 

It also frustrates me that BioWare does not entirely admit they are wrong (like you stated), but that they also refuse to make a statement expressing the cause is related to an issue without stating player conditions is a contributing factor (or at least a sub-factor).

 

Consciously or subconsciously the true end game content stems from the fluidity of the most fundamental part of any part of the game (end game included), COMBAT RESPONSIVENESS.

 

 

 

P.S. I refuse to stop regurgitating points and I refuse to shut up about this matter until I 'feel' it is completely taken care of. I have followed the game for 5 years and the only reason I play is because of BioWare, the genre is SW in an MMO and that I quit WoW to invest in this title (not only financially but temporal). It is the singular complaint I have and the single thing I think separates this game from become a true market leader. I also invest the time I do in giving feedback to this matter because I do believe the combat has the ability and potential to attain fluidity. But it needs to be made a priority. Time is not on our/their side.

 

I agree with everything you say here, I think that most high level players would, whether PvE or PvP pros.

 

I truly wish Bioware would heed these warnings, advise, help offered here. This isn't about catering to hardcore or casual crowd, this has nothing to do with the entire hardcore or casual drama.

 

Fundamentally, this is about realizing that certain players are more attuned to the finer aspects of gameplay as they do it not only "more" (playtime) but also at much higher levels, mentally and physically. Having more refined gameplay such as in WoW is better for everyone, from a Casual Soccer Mom all the way to the most elitist pro gamer and everyone in between.

 

CCP flies top gamers to Iceland for dialogue and improvements etc.

Blizzard has constant connection to top players and yes, has flown them to test, develop, discuss

 

Bioware, who knows... the launch state proves that no-one on their teams is at that higher level and can perceive this issues. Perhaps someone is but doesn't voice it... or isn't being listened to?

 

 

I've mentioned it before, to someone who has played MMOs at the top levels and generally extensively, these issues are glaring. There is nothing subtle about this, I entered a Warzone last night with my fiancee and I swear, just by clicking the speeder to go down in the Alderaan Civil War... I just want to cry! Everything showcased in my video happens in every single Warzone I play. This Isnt isolated, once In a while.

 

All this could be prevented, smoothed out, fixed etc. If only Bioware would open up to more experienced gamers of the genre and stop believing "we know what to do, its our game, we're the devs"... it'd be for the best of the game's success. I feel like a doctor who "knows" how to save a patient but the patient chooses to ignore me and continues with homeopathic drugs.

 

I truly don't believe that they realize that as you point out, this very "hard to notice for most" issue is in fact behind It all. The success of WoW, failure of any other competitor etc.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Xcore

[Starglide]

That's one of the most baffling things about SWTOR: the seeming lack of input from hardcore players from other MMOs. "Cinematic combat" is probably the most damning example: anyone that had ever played any MMO competitively before would have been appalled at the idea of giving animations precedence over actions. It's such a mind-blowingly stupid thing to do that it just completely confounds me.

 

Coming from WoW, I expect that when a cast bar finishes, the ability goes off. I should not have to stand for another half-second in a warzone while my healing animation finishes and the server deigns to tell me that the ability had completely gone through before I can start moving again. If I try to mount, I should be mounted and able to move WHEN THE BAR IS FINISHED. Not a second later when the mount appears. In warcraft, you float around for a half second moving at your mounted speed. Does it look silly? Maybe. Does it feel natural? Absolutely.

 

Or Force Wave: who the hell thought that it was a good idea to have a clutch AoE knockback ability on a two-second hidden cast time?!

 

Even very basic lightsaber attacks: sure, I guess it's cool that when I hit my sage's crappy auto-attack, three animated swings lead to three hits at three distinct times. Or rather, it was cool for about two minutes. That's the kind of thing that impresses idiots watching youtube videos from E3. Once you try to hit someone in PvP you quickly wish had WoW's combat system, where damage occurs WHEN YOU HIT THE BUTTON, not a second later.

 

The engine is very poorly made to have all these various 'bugs' that the developers keep finding for responsiveness....but even if they find every bug and optimize every routine, there will still be the throttle limiter of "cinematic combat" that will make the game forever feel awkward. And this WILL impact the long term survival of the game. And for what? So that a few more super-casual noobs will buy the game when it comes out but never play to 50, never pay for more than a few months, and probably never buy any future expansions?

 

Any experienced, competitive MMO player would have vetoed the 'cinematic combat' idea, if there was one on the development team. Mass Effect 2 players, however, probably would have thought it was a fine idea. I think we can guess which players were on the development team.

 

I agree completely. I want to also mention a few other aspects where the system fails to be viable for a MMO (I say this because for a single player game this system may be acceptable).

 

It is currently possible when engaging your next ability that the que system in TOR is broken. Towards the end of a channel in WoW, if you cast your next ability towards the end (so it ques), the next ability will go off at the exact second the channel is complete. We have already covered that this is a perfect display of fluidity lacking in TOR, but lets look at the que system for a moment. Notice how the next ability goes off upon the end of the channel. Currently, in TOR, if you cast an ability while you are channeling, not matter if it is close to the end or not--it cancels the channel. It does not correctly que so that when the channel is complete, the next ability executes. This means that even the que system, although apparently adjustable *rolls eyes, is extraordinarily broken as it does not exist.

 

This is another location where fluidity is lacking since the que system purely functions off of the GCD and not off of abilities. This is where it seems as not only is the animation > application results in lack of fluidity, but BioWare also failed to keep some type of rotation in mind when linking the que system with animations and the GCD. It seems as if the very departments in which create these separate aspects that constitute the entire propriety failed to communicate with each other. It is ironic as these issues persist because of the communication that is occurring between these actions--or lackthereof.

 

WoW's system also has an input lag option in which you can toggle for users with lower end PCs. This displays somewhat how the system works as it removes input lag from your UI completely and lets it occur client side but the overall action still calculated via server side. If you toggle this option, no matter how bad the PC, when you press an ability you will see it light up immediately because it is reacting to input client side, tricking you into thinking it has been executed, showing the animation immediately and the numbers, but then reacting on the server a bit later. This gives the feeling of control even on the worst of PCs. But this is just to express the difference in 'feeling' is resulted in the way the client is communicating with everything else.

 

Currently, no matter how good the PC (I know since I play on a amazing gaming rig), the lack of control starts at the very core--the time the key is pressed. There is a small delay, because for whatever reason, the key input's first execution is not occurring client side which results in the que system not occurring client side and the GCD not occurring client side. Add all these hairline delays up and you have something that becomes clunky. Opposition would be the input being client side (instant), GCD beginning client side (instant), queing your next ability (client side) but then calculating all these on the server and internet speed being a result of how fast you SEE the numbers (absolute completion of executed abilities). When you have everything occurring on the server, even the simplest of inputs will have some sort of delay. Add animation being priority and you have one of the worst designed combat system for feeling of control (which is what an MMO is all about).

 

There are simply too many priorities over input at the moment. Obviously what I stated above is hypothesis as someone but Blizzard developers knows exactly how their system works, but I would bet it is something like that. Currently in TOR there are simply too many priorities over the users actual actions. Let me give another example:

 

If you miss in WoW, you basically don't know you do unless you see the text from the combat log or the numbers floating above the mobs head. Why? Because whatever you execute after the GCD is up goes through, including animations. Currently, if you miss a channel with TOR, such as ravage for a Sith Warrior, even if the GCD is up after 1.5 seconds, you still have to wait for the animation that would be on a 3 second channel to complete. This causes a 1.5 second delay before your next ability because the priority system in TOR is Animation > Application. The game literally does NOT know you casted another ability because the que system is basing when it should cast on when the previous animation completes. Not when the GCD ends on the client. This is why when you do not miss, it cancels the channel. Because after the GCD, the que is canceling the actual ability because it is functioning on the animation. You started a new animation therefore it decides to cancel the last. It is not subject to the application of said ability or channel.

 

Another example is when you cast an instant ability. Notice how when you cast an instant ability you have to be either standing still sometimes, or wait for the animation to complete from your last ability. Lets use Ravage again as a reference. You start to cast Ravage which is a 3 second channel, but as soon as you do you notice you're low and want to pop an instant defensive ability like Saber Ward. The GCD isn't quite complete, but you should be able to pop this ability as it is not on GCD to save your butt.... wrong. You will hit the ability but it will not go off because the system is confused as it is waiting for the Ravage animation to complete totally disregarding the application priority and proving that animations are more important to the system. It even seems as if the game becomes confused when you are using basic moving keys like WSAD because it is evident standing still will help execute said ability.

 

There are a million example where this system fails in more aspects than one. Doing simple tasks like mounting becomes a tedious unresponsive experience and completely tarnishes the much needed feeling of control necessary to the genre as a whole; proven by lack of extreme success from any other MMO besides WoW--the most responsive MMO to date.

 

It breaks down like this: it seems as if BioWare tried to fit the animation within the GCD as opposed to the action of the user's ability.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Starglide

[Xcore]

I agree completely. I want to also mention a few other aspects where the system fails to be viable for a MMO (I say this because for a single player game this system may be acceptable).

 

It is currently possible when engaging your next ability that the que system in TOR is broken. Towards the end of a channel in WoW, if you cast your next ability towards the end (so it ques), the next ability will go off at the exact second the channel is complete. We have already covered that this is a perfect display of fluidity lacking in TOR, but lets look at the que system for a moment. Notice how the next ability goes off upon the end of the channel. Currently, in TOR, if you cast an ability while you are channeling, not matter if it is close to the end or not--it cancels the channel. It does not correctly que so that when the channel is complete, the next ability executes. This means that even the que system, although apparently adjustable *rolls eyes, is extraordinarily broken as it does not exist.

 

This is another location where fluidity is lacking since the que system purely functions off of the GCD and not off of abilities. This is where it seems as not only is the animation > application results in lack of fluidity, but BioWare also failed to keep some type of rotation in mind when linking the que system with animations and the GCD. It seems as if the very departments in which create these separate aspects that constitute the entire propriety failed to communicate with each other. It is ironic as these issues persist because of the communication that is occurring between these actions--or lackthereof.

 

WoW's system also has an input lag option in which you can toggle for users with lower end PCs. This displays somewhat how the system works as it removes input lag from your UI completely and lets it occur client side but the overall action still calculated via server side. If you toggle this option, no matter how bad the PC, when you press an ability you will see it light up immediately because it is reacting to input client side, tricking you into thinking it has been executed, showing the animation immediately and the numbers, but then reacting on the server a bit later. This gives the feeling of control even on the worst of PCs. But this is just to express the difference in 'feeling' is resulted in the way the client is communicating with everything else.

 

Currently, no matter how good the PC (I know since I play on a amazing gaming rig), the lack of control starts at the very core--the time the key is pressed. There is a small delay, because for whatever reason, the key input's first execution is not occurring client side which results in the que system not occurring client side and the GCD not occurring client side. Add all these hairline delays up and you have something that becomes clunky. Opposition would be the input being client side (instant), GCD beginning client side (instant), queing your next ability (client side) but then calculating all these on the server and internet speed being a result of how fast you SEE the numbers (absolute completion of executed abilities). When you have everything occurring on the server, even the simplest of inputs will have some sort of delay. Add animation being priority and you have one of the worst designed combat system for feeling of control (which is what an MMO is all about).

 

There are simply too many priorities over input at the moment. Obviously what I stated above is hypothesis as someone but Blizzard developers knows exactly how their system works, but I would bet it is something like that. Currently in TOR there are simply too many priorities over the users actual actions. Let me give another example:

 

If you miss in WoW, you basically don't know you do unless you see the text from the combat log or the numbers floating above the mobs head. Why? Because whatever you execute after the GCD is up goes through, including animations. Currently, if you miss a channel with TOR, such as ravage for a Sith Warrior, even if the GCD is up after 1.5 seconds, you still have to wait for the animation that would be on a 3 second channel to complete. This causes a 1.5 second delay before your next ability because the priority system in TOR is Animation > Application. The game literally does NOT know you casted another ability because the que system is basing when it should cast on when the previous animation completes. Not when the GCD ends on the client. This is why when you do not miss, it cancels the channel. Because after the GCD, the que is canceling the actual ability because it is functioning on the animation. You started a new animation therefore it decides to cancel the last. It is not subject to the application of said ability or channel.

 

Another example is when you cast an instant ability. Notice how when you cast an instant ability you have to be either standing still sometimes, or wait for the animation to complete from your last ability. Lets use Ravage again as a reference. You start to cast Ravage which is a 3 second channel, but as soon as you do you notice you're low and want to pop an instant defensive ability like Saber Ward. The GCD isn't quite complete, but you should be able to pop this ability as it is not on GCD to save your butt.... wrong. You will hit the ability but it will not go off because the system is confused as it is waiting for the Ravage animation to complete totally disregarding the application priority and proving that animations are more important to the system. It even seems as if the game becomes confused when you are using basic moving keys like WSAD because it is evident standing still will help execute said ability.

 

There are a million example where this system fails in more aspects than one. Doing simple tasks like mounting becomes a tedious unresponsive experience and completely tarnishes the much needed feeling of control necessary to the genre as a whole; proven by lack of extreme success from any other MMO besides WoW--the most responsive MMO to date.

 

Well sir, having read every single reply in these 6 threads so far... this is absolutely one of the best gems period.... thank you.

 

Ima go ahead and /qft this bad boy and add to OP when I get home tonight....

[Starglide]

I truly wish Bioware would heed these warnings, advise, help offered here. This isn't about catering to hardcore or casual crowd, this has nothing to do with the entire hardcore or casual drama.

 

Exactly. It is about the experienced consciously feeling and knowing what the issue is while the inexperienced subconsciously feel it and go back to WoW.

 

I have stated this so many times and I really want to make that point understood and seen.

[JediMasterShake]

Bump for the immense amount of time and effort put in by the community to constructively troubleshoot and get to the core of this issue. I've unsubbed, but still wish to see this game succeed - especially in this very important area.

 

We need to be clear as a gaming community that when new games are released, this, over any other feature, is the most important to have.

 

Responsiveness before everything.

Edited January 23, 2012 by JediMasterShake

[Matteis]

Well, I'm certainly going to continue posting in here even though a fix is allegedly on the way. If this patch that has the fix doesn't actually resolve the issue, there is going to be hell to pay. BW will have to go mod-crazy on the forums to address the chaos that will ensue. I also think that's going to be the day that subs will either rise or drop significantly since this issue is that critical. Edited January 23, 2012 by Matteis

[Xcore]

Exactly. It is about the experienced consciously feeling and knowing what the issue is while the inexperienced subconsciously feel it and go back to WoW.

 

I have stated this so many times and I really want to make that point understood and seen.

 

Part of the problem here is that most of those who consciously feel it just leave and unsub, go back to WoW... and on top of that, especially those who subconsciously feel it, simply feel weird, clunky, bad playing... get frustrated, can't put finger on what exactly the issue is and... leave.

 

So in the end, you have games like WAR, Vanguard, LotRO and countless others failing without ever knowing why. Then the developers and publishers believe it is because they didn't have X feature etc.. and so we keep getting these clunky, feature full, expensive and ambitious MMOs...

 

So unless this issue is defined and brought to attention, developers and publishers finally push for gameplay we'll not have a decent MMO until Titan...

 

Well played Blizzard....

[Celebrus]

Cool. Another "My problem with this game trumps yours and will be the death of it should they not fix it fast enough for my liking" thread.

 

Lets keep them coming.

[Starglide]

Responsiveness before everything.

 

This absolutely has to be understood by every developer. Because what I have stated before about consciousness and understanding control has to come from the core.

 

MMO is an extremely competitive genre. Believe it or not, the reason why any game receives immense success is the ability to incorporate competing. Just look at the most successful games:

 

WoW

COD series

Half Life

Counter Strike

 

All these games are among the most successful because there is nothing like other people baring witness to your success. No matter how big or how small.

 

Lets go a bit further. Sports for example. Among the biggest businesses, worlds richest and highest salaries. Why? COMPETITION.

 

Why am I mentioning this? Well, growing up playing sports like Baseball, Hockey, Basketball, although different competitive GAME, there was always one fundamental rule among all that separated the good from the great.... CONTROL.

 

Fielding ground balls with bare hands, catching fly balls, practicing free throws--before you can do anything in a real game you have to learn to have control. It is the most sustained fundamental feature among all competitive things. The formula is there, why BioWare or any other developer for that matter would think it is second rate to subjects like animations, leveling, hiding grind, story, fourth pillars, fifth pillars or whatever other imaginary pillars non-players may believe constitute something they pretend to, but know so little about.

 

Everybody can coach from the couch. We need players in Austin.

[JediMasterShake]

Cool. Another "My problem with this game trumps yours and will be the death of it should they not fix it fast enough for my liking" thread.

 

Lets keep them coming.

 

I guess you missed the part where this is the 6th iteration of the same exact thread - the previous all maxed out. Easily the most supported topic on the forum by about a factor of 10.

 

So yea, this problem does trump your problem.

[Starglide]

Cool. Another "My problem with this game trumps yours and will be the death of it should they not fix it fast enough for my liking" thread.

 

Lets keep them coming.

 

You mean 6th thread of the same topic re-created because of the sheer amount of unanimous decisions that this is the, if not one of the, most important aspect of TOR's success and the reason why the most successful MMO in history is currently our market leader? And the way TOR can become such a title and maintain an incredible experience we believe it can be and hope/waited for?

 

Anyone who does not agree with every point this thread strives to make is either inexperienced, trolling or lacks the mental resource to objectively asses a vital situation and help overcome persisting tribulations.

 

Based on your previous posts, you are all of those things.

[Lhaim]

Bumping the best gaming related thread ever. I have been preaching this for years, wow trumps anything in the mmo market because its combat feels good.

 

You may innovate in any area you want to, if the CORE is far worse than what blizzard accomplished you will end up like every other competitor.

 

Some people that will leave will never put a finger on it or think about it: "It just wasnt fun.", "It didnt feel polished.", "It kind of lagged." etc.

[JediMasterShake]

Everybody can coach from the couch. We need players in Austin.

 

 

You know what's funny about this... I can understand some of the responsiveness issues. I'm no expert, but maybe the hero engine played a role in it. I can understand if you've built this game on technology that perhaps wasn't completely suited for the task. I can understand the runaway snowball that had gotten so big that some of these issues seemed too ingrained to fix during the onslaught of MMO development on a timeline.

 

But what I can't understand are the actual choices they made concerning animations trumping input. My BH fires an instant cast missle and it doesn't leave my avatar when I click the button - my BH raises his left arm, then deliberately fires the missle about .5 sec after the key is pressed. When you click spacebar to jump, you buckle your knees oh so slightly before launching - a .1 second delay perhaps - but when coming from WoW if feels slow.

 

Forget for a second that something is clearly mechanically and functionally wrong with ability input in certain situations - this is like dropping a pass in a football game. A mistake. You tried, but failed.

 

But when they simply prioritized cinematic combat over input responsiveness, that was a conscious mental mistake. And a pretty horrible one.

 

I just can't believe that the people who sat in that room when those decisions were made have ever really played video games at a high level.

Edited January 23, 2012 by JediMasterShake

[Starglide]

Part of the problem here is that most of those who consciously feel it just leave and unsub, go back to WoW... and on top of that, especially those who subconsciously feel it, simply feel weird, clunky, bad playing... get frustrated, can't put finger on what exactly the issue is and... leave.

 

So in the end, you have games like WAR, Vanguard, LotRO and countless others failing without ever knowing why. Then the developers and publishers believe it is because they didn't have X feature etc.. and so we keep getting these clunky, feature full, expensive and ambitious MMOs...

 

So unless this issue is defined and brought to attention, developers and publishers finally push for gameplay we'll not have a decent MMO until Titan...

 

Well played Blizzard....

 

Exactly. They continue to snarl in a corner while people can't figure out why their visually aged MMO continues to trump every "next-gen" title.

 

Like I have stated before, the writing is all over the wall. It is apparent why players are the ones that understand. The satisfaction one gets from "I just did that" cannot be broken.

[TonyIommi]

So while its neat this thread has evolved into a blizzard love making sessions, has anyone actually tested the fix on the pts?

[CyberData]

I guess you missed the part where this is the 6th iteration of the same exact thread - the previous all maxed out. Easily the most supported topic on the forum by about a factor of 10.

 

So yea, this problem does trump your problem.

 

I mean, I'm a huge SW fan and I actually really like TOR so far. But this is a serious issue, even a fanboy like me has to admit it.

 

It just feels wrong. It screws up combat rotations and in a time sensitive situation like PvP, this is make or break the entire game for people.

[Grapenut]

99% of MMO's is beating up 10 rats.

 

If beating up 10 rats isn't smooth and responsive.

 

Why would I continue to beat up 10 more rats when the expansion is out?

 

Great thread. Hope they can fix this.

[Fellthar]

You mean 6th thread of the same topic re-created because of the sheer amount of unanimous decisions that this is the, if not one of the, most important aspect of TOR's success and the reason why the most successful MMO in history is currently our market leader? And the way TOR can become such a title and maintain an incredible experience we believe it can be and hope/waited for?

 

Anyone who does not agree with every point this thread strives to make is either inexperienced, trolling or lacks the mental resource to objectively asses a vital situation and help overcome persisting tribulations.

 

Based on your previous posts, you are all of those things.

 

I don't personally subscribe to the way you are speaking to others in this particular post.

 

However, I generally agree with what you said.

 

This issue is important, without a doubt, to the success of this game as a main stream title.

 

Can someone fill me in (in summary form?) on how the announced changes by Bioware regarding the ability delay in the next patch and beyond stack up to the problem, and will this be enough to solve the issue or have they not found the true source yet? There is too much information in these threads to digest if you have not been following it all along (I have not), but I am curious how things stand right now?

[Starglide]

You know what's funny about this... I can understand some of the responsiveness issues. I'm no expert, but maybe the hero engine played a role in it. I can understand if you've built this game on technology that perhaps wasn't completely suited for the task. I can understand the runaway snowball that had gotten so big that some of these issues seemed too ingrained to fix during the onslaught of MMO development on a timeline.

 

But what I can't understand are the actual choices they made concerning animations trumping input. My BH fires an instant cast missle and it doesn't leave my avatar when I click the button - my BH raises his left arm, then deliberately fires the missle about .5 sec after the key is pressed. When you click spacebar to jump, you buckle your knees oh so slightly before launching - a .1 second delay perhaps - but when coming from WoW if feels slow.

 

Forget for a second that something is clearly mechanically and functionally wrong with ability input in certain situations - this is like dropping a pass in a football game. A mistake. You tried, but failed.

 

But with they simply prioritized cinematic combat over input responsiveness. And that was a conscious mental mistake. And a pretty horrible one.

 

I just can't believe that the people who sat in that room when those decisions were made have ever really played video games at a high level.

 

Agreed. But lets not forget the fact that they paid me to go in a room and talk about this game. I yelled about this 8 months ago. It just seems as if we were ignored.

 

It's almost as if "Yeah we understand what you are saying, but we are going to do it our way anyway".

 

It is almost embarrassing when you look back at the bragging they did about stealing subscriptions. Almost as if a bunch of analysts locked themselves in a room trying to figure out why WoW is so successful, walked out of the room and screamed "WE GOT IT. It's the fourth pillar! STORY!"

 

While gamers were playing TOR in the next room saying "Why the hell does it take so long for my abilities to work?"

[JediMasterShake]

So while its neat this thread has evolved into a blizzard love making sessions, has anyone actually tested the fix on the pts?

 

Misconception #1, with a bullet, on the TOR forums.

 

People do NOT want this game to be world of warcraft. I cannot stress that enough. Unfortunately, people see comparisons, don't use their brain, then troll with posts like this.

 

However, what wow excels at the most, why they make 150 million dollars a month, why they have set the bar in the genre, is because they spent time and money perfecting their engine over everything else, to provide the gamer responsive and intimate gameplay.

 

If you launch a combat based MMO without this, or something very close to perfect responsiveness, your game has a distinct ceiling of subscribers. Period.

[JediMasterShake]

99% of MMO's is beating up 10 rats.

 

If beating up 10 rats isn't smooth and responsive.

 

Why would I continue to beat up 10 more rats when the expansion is out?

 

Great thread. Hope they can fix this.

 

lol. This... is all that needs to be said.

[Starglide]

So while its neat this thread has evolved into a blizzard love making sessions, has anyone actually tested the fix on the pts?

 

This is another thing that is frustrating. It is impossible to completely test this on the PTR as you cannot transfer your character over or create a high level character. It seems a bit better on a level 1 toon, but I want to play in a Warzone at level 50 or duel some high level toons with all my abilities.

 

I don't know why BioWare expects to have successful roll out with these patches after being on the PTR if there is no way to correctly test them. Illum is a perfect example.

 

I mean come on.

[JediMasterShake]

Agreed. But lets not forget the fact that they paid me to go in a room and talk about this game. I yelled about this 8 months ago. It just seems as if we were ignored.

 

It's almost as if "Yeah we understand what you are saying, but we are going to do it our way anyway".

 

It is almost embarrassing when you look back at the bragging they did about stealing subscriptions. Almost as if a bunch of analysts locked themselves in a room trying to figure out why WoW is so successful, walked out of the room and screamed "WE GOT IT. It's the fourth pillar! STORY!"

 

While gamers were playing TOR in the next room saying "Why the hell does it take so long for my abilities to work?"

 

Very cool. What's your experience? WoW arena tournaments? Other pro gaming? Understandable if you don't want to post that stuff.