trublmaker Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Heres the thing. Some people just suck. Thats how it is. They dont know they suck but they do. My IRL friend for example love her to death but omg she was a horrible hunter in wow. took her to heroics at 85 running recount of course.... she was barely doing 2k dmg... anyone thats played wow knows how bad of dps that is for 85 heroics lol. So I say to her in vent so how do you like your hunter.... her reply oh I love it so much dmg..... in her eyes she was dpsing like crazy pulling huge numbers when in reality everyone else was doing 5x more dps. I would never take her to a raid because she would cause the raid to wipe on dps checks. You see people sometimes need to be shown what they are doing wrong and how they can improve in order to be apart of the team. You dont take a kid out of basic training and make him part of a 5 man seal team because hes gonna get them killed on the first mission. You need to understand that some people play games competitively and for progression. If you dont thats perfectly fine. But people that do need to know the numbers in order to improve their teams progression for hardmode content/ops. If your constantly wiping with a group of friends you cant really sit back and see why you cant be like hey bro your pulling a quarter of the dps the rest of us are whats your rotation? maybe we can boost you some how. Thats what dps meters are for. Same for healing. Also another big thing is SWTOR HAS ENRAGE TIMERS! This means there is a dps check. Which means people need to be pulling their weight..... not sure why bioware added dps checks but offer no way for players to see their dps to improve it lol Fair enough. However you need to realize with this type of thinking, raids will always consist of the same (16, 24)people. Hence your "IRL friend" will never be able to raid with you. The same people will always win the DPS race. Hence: the bulk of the population becomes bored with the end game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What's your average DPS on Gharj or Soa or any raid boss for that matter?Wipe #1: Heals couldn't keep up with healing dps because they were so busy trying keep their dps up that they forgot to move out of the lava. Wipe #2: After 5 minutes of reminding everyone to pay attention to their surroundings, ranged kept getting too close to the smashes and heals couldn't keep up. Wipe #3: the tank dc'd. There wasn't a 4th wipe, because players payed attention. Meters? What meters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Its not an elitest mentality its a I dont want to spend 6 hours wiping because you cant play the game or dont meet the gear req for what you signed up for. How do you recommend the inferiors improve themselves in-as-much-as you're eliminating them from raids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyretechnic Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Wipe #1: Heals couldn't keep up with healing dps because they were so busy trying keep their dps up that they forgot to move out of the lava. Wipe #2: After 5 minutes of reminding everyone to pay attention to their surroundings, ranged kept getting too close to the smashes and heals couldn't keep up. Wipe #3: the tank dc'd. There wasn't a 4th wipe, because players payed attention. Meters? What meters? This assumes the raid was composed of competent players that met the requirements for the fight. If you hit the enrage timer time and time again, then what? Inspect gear and make arbitrary decisions? Favoritism? Give up calling the encounter broken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyretechnic Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 How do you recommend the inferiors improve themselves in-as-much-as you're eliminating them from raids? By running other content and improving their game there. You don't jump straight to the championship game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merkavot Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 How do you recommend the inferiors improve themselves in-as-much-as you're eliminating them from raids? Raids aren't the place to learn your class, just so you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selethar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 NO NO NO I do not support Recount by any means. While most that are for it claim it is a needed diagnostic tool we all have seen where that goes. We don't need EPEEn meters in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PessimiStick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) NO NO NO I do not support Recount by any means. While most that are for it claim it is a needed diagnostic tool we all have seen where that goes. We don't need EPEEn meters in this game.I'm sorry that someone has excluded you in the past for being terrible. (I'm really not sorry at all.) Edited January 10, 2012 by PessimiStick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 By running other content and improving their game there. You don't jump straight to the championship game. Oh please... Are you suggesting players can obtain raid gear without raiding? Disclaimer: I have never played WoW. I am from EQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamentari Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The only reason to hide your information is because you don't want other people to know that you suck. That's not a valid reason. I myself have no issue showing my numbers but not everyone does. I am also strait but I don't go around advertising that to everyone next to me. So when your doing ops and hitting the enrage timer and wiping repeatedly. You wouldn't want to know who in your team isn't putting out the REQUIRED dps? You are a fool a base your agruement off opinion whereas the game has DPS CHECKS, this means that the game requires you to be pulling a certain amount of dps on boss's or you will fail. it is important that you know your groups dps so you can improve and clear content. My suggestion isn't to not have the tool at all but allow your numbers visible to yourself This comes down to a communication thing if you have issues with bosses you can simply request that they would post damage. If people don't wish to comply then you can remove them from group there are more work around then forcing your view onto everyone. Not everyone wants the old recount system its as simple as that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Wipe #1: Heals couldn't keep up with healing dps because they were so busy trying keep their dps up that they forgot to move out of the lava. Wipe #2: After 5 minutes of reminding everyone to pay attention to their surroundings, ranged kept getting too close to the smashes and heals couldn't keep up. Wipe #3: the tank dc'd. There wasn't a 4th wipe, because players payed attention. Meters? What meters? Not sure how poor positioning and/or awareness has anything to do with meters. Please stop with the false argument that once someone has a meter they immediately become 'hypmotized' (sic) by the flashy numbers to the exclusion of all else. Let me ask you what will get you kicked quicker? Low DPS or standing in the fire. Fire wins hands down. My question, if you read the post, was in response to a comment that the poster knew his 'ideal rotation'. I was asking the question to make the point that if he isn't capable of measuring his DPS output he can't rightly know his optimal rotation. Sure he can guess and that is fine for some content. But without hard data he cannot KNOW the optimal. Not to even muddy the waters further but same goes for gear setup. With out tools to measure all the various inputs you won't know BIS arrangements. Rawr is a good example of how this is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PessimiStick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Oh please... Are you suggesting players can obtain raid gear without raiding? Disclaimer: I have never played WoW. I am from EQ. If it's not a gear issue, then they just aren't good players, and it's not my job to make them better. I don't care what they do, so long as they aren't in my group holding me back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriasx Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm not interesting simply because classes will be changed repeatedly simply because someone thinks their class puts out less dps than others, its a vicious cycle of tweaking until every class is virtually the same. In reality we all have like 2 1/2 hotbars worth of abilities if you cannot figure out a decent cast order from the tooltip dmg displays in a game where all dmg forumals follow one of two different forumlas then I hardly doubt you will be able to do so with a number listed on your screen to the point where you build a cast order that way, you will still do whatever some random guy posted on a forum and told you to do so now you have to play around with it yourself which is a good thing. I also have zero interest in any client side lag just so you can continue doing what some guy told you just so you can feel adequate or accomplsihed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hjorprimul Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So when your doing ops and hitting the enrage timer and wiping repeatedly. You wouldn't want to know who in your team isn't putting out the REQUIRED dps? You are a fool a base your agruement off opinion whereas the game has DPS CHECKS, this means that the game requires you to be pulling a certain amount of dps on boss's or you will fail. it is important that you know your groups dps so you can improve and clear content. If you were doin it right, you would know where everyone in your raid stands before the raid even starts. That's counting kill time ratios, gears, specs. You would know who needs to be worked on gear wise, rotation wise, etc. But, if you went the lazy route of a damage meter, and you just don't care to know about anyone other than yourself, you would fail. My condolences to those who raid with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DredWes Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I would like to thank those that got my thread closed by turning it into a recount or not to recount discussion. /please feel free to continue to argue amongst yourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Oh please... Are you suggesting players can obtain raid gear without raiding? Disclaimer: I have never played WoW. I am from EQ. I think the point is you don't go right to Nightmare. You build up to harder and harder content. You aren't going to want someone who has never run a 50 FP to all of the sudden be running in your Nightmare group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PessimiStick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I myself have no issue showing my numbers but not everyone does.And my reply was directed at the people that have an issue with it. It's not a valid reason. This comes down to a communication thing if you have issues with bosses you can simply request that they would post damage. If people don't wish to comply then you can remove them from group there are more work around then forcing your view onto everyone. Not everyone wants the old recount system its as simple as thatOr we could just skip the 900 lines of chat spam, and boot them because they're objectively bad, without having to wait for them to implicitly admit it. Edited January 10, 2012 by PessimiStick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pubkin Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Sweet! So I get to sit back and audit my group instead of participating in the encounter?! YES! .....NO! They need to implement a proper combat log. Of course The Conspiracy Theorist might say: They left out a combat log, recount, the ability to mod, etc. for the soul reason that they Didn't wan't people to blaze through all of their content in the first few months. So fewer tools to make the task easier means ppl are mired down. Same reason there is a way to queue for pvp warzones, but not for flashpoints. People expect to pvp on the same maps - some illusion that it's a 'e-sport' - but flashpoint content is finite. They have to keep people in check and lower their pace. Don't worry! they will in fact add all the same things that WoW has. Because like it or not SWTOR has to compete with WoW as it is TODAY not HOW IT WAS 7 YEARS AGO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PessimiStick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If you were doin it right, you would know where everyone in your raid stands before the raid even starts. That's counting kill time ratios, gears, specs. You would know who needs to be worked on gear wise, rotation wise, etc. This is so patently ridiculous that I actually laughed out loud when I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Fair enough. However you need to realize with this type of thinking, raids will always consist of the same (16, 24)people. Hence your "IRL friend" will never be able to raid with you. The same people will always win the DPS race. Hence: the bulk of the population becomes bored with the end game. Honestly if you cant clear the content even without meters you would get bored. If there are no meters they will just dumb the content down to were someone could just afk through entire fights... you think that wouldn't be boring? People want a challenge, people like progression. You can not do that without proper tools to gauge your performance. And if its the same people winning the dps race fine who cares good for them they can go circle jerk in a ops with each other while you have fun doing whatever you like to do. If you cant do hard modes because you didn't win the dps race..... then does it matter? you can still do normal... you still get hte experience the gear and the social aspect of it with your group do you not? See there are people that are hardcore and people that are not. If you make hardmode to easy so its casual they get bored. If they make it to hard the casuals get mad because they cant do hardmode. But you cant tell me going into a hardmode ops and wiping repeatedly without ever knowing why you are wiping is fun, and wouldn't get boring.... you would simply not do ops or you would come here and complain that its all to hard when in reality you probably had a few in group not doing what they are supposed to and it wasn't that the content was over tuned but the players that were undertuned due to not know what they are doing because they have no way of gauging their current performance. Also because WoW had a dps meter i took my friend that was doing 2k dmg and in just 3 hours had her pulling 15k in greens. Dont blame the tool blame the people using it and if you dont like them stay away from them and stick to your crowd. If you see someone saying LFM must be xxx dps then why are you bothered by that simply put your own together or join someone elses that doesn't care about clearing content. In rare cases you join a group that is overgeared and carries you through which is fine as well. I have rarely seen bad effects of recount in wow to be honest with you. The only time I have seen problems is when the group is pulling 20k each in a raid and then you have a dps class doing 5k and the boss is enraging.... of course that person is going to be singled out and told to pick it up or leave. They shouldn't be there if they cant dps or dont have the gear. Running end game content is something your work for not something thats a right... oh i got to 50 im gonna do that hardmode op and not do anything to help the team then get mad because they told me to get my dps up or leave. Thats like being at work and you doing 2x more work and missing a deadline because your co worker didn't do his job and was unprepared.... guess what hes gonna get written up or just plain fired lol.. Team effort means the whole team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Sweet! So I get to sit back and audit my group instead of participating in the encounter?! YES! .....NO! They need to implement a proper combat log. Of course The Conspiracy Theorist might say: They left out a combat log, recount, the ability to mod, etc. for the soul reason that they Didn't wan't people to blaze through all of their content in the first few months. So fewer tools to make the task easier means ppl are mired down. Same reason there is a way to queue for pvp warzones, but not for flashpoints. People expect to pvp on the same maps - some illusion that it's a 'e-sport' - but flashpoint content is finite. They have to keep people in check and lower their pace. Don't worry! they will in fact add all the same things that WoW has. Because like it or not SWTOR has to compete with WoW as it is TODAY not HOW IT WAS 7 YEARS AGO The funny thing is people have blazed through all the content in under 30 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heromuncher Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I agree some form of dps meter needs to be added to the game, but defiantly not gearscore. measuring DPS is vital to improving your spell rotations and for raid encounters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If it's not a gear issue, then they just aren't good players, and it's not my job to make them better. I don't care what they do, so long as they aren't in my group holding me back. Heaven forbid you end up grouping with a mere mortal. Guilds are all about teamwork the goal is to outfit everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seriasx Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 My X class does less dps than Z class please either increase X's dps or lower Z's this is unacceptable, also please ignore anything other then sheer dps in the future because my brain has trouble understing things like utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 My X class does less dps than Z class please either increase X's dps or lower Z's this is unacceptable, also please ignore anything other then sheer dps in the future because my brain has trouble understing things like utility. Considering that BW has said they want DPS output to be balanced across all DPS specs they would probably want to level x and y up a bit IF THE DATA BARES THAT OUT. Heck, you already have people crying for nerfs on the class pages. At least with logs you would have evidence either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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