Will swtor's engine ever be capable of handling more than 20 players?

[Arkanovi]

K listen up peeps.

 

As a scientist, I propose we all do an experiment to test our hypothesis. We should congregate on our respective fleets, empire and republic, and form gangs of 50-100 ppl and see what happens. I have a great computer at home: 12GB RAM (Can add to 24), about 3 TB storage with 7200RPM, latest Nvidia GPU with internal liquid cooling system. I NEVER have lag and all my controls are at the max UNTIL I meet with over 20 ppl in one area. *** - it's a crap engine using yesterday's technology.

 

As a fellow scientist (I hope you don't mean psychology), what processor and GPU do you have? 12GB ram and 3TB HDD won't do much towards performance over 4gb of ram in swtor

[sdream]

Please, don't mind me, go on in detail about the limitations of DirectX v9 and how it's limitations are why the Hero Engine cannot handle more than 20 players in an area.

 

Please be specific and cite sources. Proper Grammar would also be preferred, but not necessary.

 

English isn't my language of tongue, but nice trying to attack me on unrelated subject, Mr. I-can-connect-webcams-using-twain-interface. Back off.

[morbidillusion]

Using your own source;

 

"and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible until evidence is presented to prove it false."

 

So far you have not come with anything to disprove his theory incorrect, so, until proven, he is correct.

 

You cannot just say he is incorrect without some kind of justification. Well, it's d'internetz so I guess you can.

 

No, no, no, no, no. I am correct - my argument is sound, but this is outright wrong. A lot of people in here, especially Argolith, don't really know how to apply their logic.

 

My argument employs the facts that the game instances zones down to 25 players and doesn't run properly with 20 people in a Warzone to suggest that the game is not capable of running that many simultaneous players. Essentially, there is no reason to instance the planets and zones if it isn't going to affect the performance of the game. MMOs want tons of players to play the game with.

 

Argolith is using the skeptical approach to say that because you don't know for sure that the engine is to blame, it can be any number of reason as to why the game is the way it is. This is true but this is a video game not metaphysics. You can't really use Hume to argue a point about the nature of anything but knowledge. If you take all knowledge skeptically, you can't even "know" that "you can't know". Argolith can't argue anything from this position, so he's merely pointing out a flaw in my argument (one which exists in every argument) and offering no argument of his own.

[Argolith]

Using your own source;

 

"and that the simplest explanation will be the most plausible until evidence is presented to prove it false."

 

So far you have not come with anything to disprove his theory incorrect, so, until proven, he is correct.

 

You cannot just say he is incorrect without some kind of justification. Well, it's d'internetz so I guess you can.

 

You're wrong in your application of Occum's Razor. I'm not the one making a claim, I'm the one asking the original poster to support his claim. It is not possible to use Occum's Razor to "Prove" a scientific theory (Which is what the OP put forward).

[DarthSublimitas]

Do you really expect anyone to take you serious with that type of a forum nick.. really?? What Psych 101 major?

 

ROFL - dude, you quoted the wrong person. I'm not in Psych - I have a Masters in IT Business Management / Info Sec

[Hanni]

My PC is kinda crap and I run SWTOR on max settings with 4x AA, no problem. 1920x1200.

[Argolith]

No, no, no, no, no. I am correct - my argument is sound, but this is outright wrong. A lot of people in here, especially Argolith, don't really know how to apply their logic.

 

My argument employs the facts that the game instances zones down to 25 players and doesn't run properly with 20 people in a Warzone to suggest that the game is not capable of running that many simultaneous players. Essentially, there is no reason to instance the planets and zones if it isn't going to affect the performance of the game. MMOs want tons of players to play the game with.

 

Argolith is using the skeptical approach to say that because you don't know for sure that the engine is to blame, it can be any number of reason as to why the game is the way it is. This is true but this is a video game not metaphysics. You can't really use Hume to argue a point about the nature of anything but knowledge. If you take all knowledge skeptically, you can't even "know" that "you can't know". Argolith can't argue anything from this position, so he's merely pointing out a flaw in my argument (one which exists in every argument) and offering no argument of his own.

 

 

My argument is that your argument is flawed because you do not provide any proof as to why you are right.

 

I have a Bioware employee stating that FPS issues are localized issues that their bug team is cleaning up (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-10-bioware-most-people-arent-having-swtor-performance-issues) and you have "It's instanced down to 25 people because the engine is limited." With no citation and/or proof to your argument, I have to believe the evidence given to me by a reputable source.

[Kozzmozz]

This engine for the game can't handle more than 20 players in a space without running choppy and droping everyones fps very low. Just curious if this can be fixed and improved or if this is how the game will always be.

 

I hate sharding and instancing but its clear the games engine couldnt handle anything more. Servers barley hold any players. To be honest this MMO and the engine feels really dated.

 

So can this every be fixed?

 

What choppy ? with 20 people? If you are having lag in a place with 20 pple then i suggest you look out for a new computer. You can use your computer science knowledge to order one from the shop.

[AJediKnight]

Whatever is wrong, it is really damned wrong. The game shouldn't be unplayable on systems meeting its low end requirements -- it should run smoothly if you have the settings all set to low. But that's not what happens. Twice over the XMas break, I installed TOR on systems well within its basic requirements, only to have the game rendered an unplayable, choppy mess.

 

It's fine on my rig at home which, while not top of the line, is an 'okay' PC, but even there it stutters in crowds in a way that the graphics simply do not excuse. Whatever is wrong with this puppy, it is buried deep, and may be unfixable.

[morbidillusion]

LMAO at the "I took Philosophy 1A at the Community College" in this thread.

 

Apparently you didn't. Ad hominem.

 

There are clearly players who are having performance issues *and* there are clearly players that do not. I do not pretend to have the answer for the disparity.

 

So you offer no solution to the problem of why the game splits a low population planet of 50 players into two instances. Main cities in WoW easily have 50+ players on the screen at once, this game splits a questing zone of 50 spread out people into 25.

 

The fact is that logically there is no reason to instance your game so heavily if:

 

a. MMO players don't like the outdoor world instanced.

b. The game runs fine if you don't do it.

 

Is there seriously anyone that WANTS planets to be sharded into multiple instances? That wants their MMORPG to have less players in it?

[Argolith]

English isn't my language of tongue, but nice trying to attack me on unrelated subject, Mr. I-can-connect-webcams-using-twain-interface. Back off.

 

I never meant to degrade you based on your native language. All I am asking for is a little proof that there are inherent limitations in the Hero Engine that causes it not to be able to handle more than 20 people in an area without significant performance degradation.

 

I put forward that these "Limitations" that has been put forward are in fact bugs/issues with optimization of the application of the engine and not inherent flaws of the engine itself, and that Bioware is aware of these issues and is working diligently to resolve them.

[Chevex]

My PC is kinda crap and I run SWTOR on max settings with 4x AA, no problem. 1920x1200.

 

Yeah my PC is crap too. I only have an i7 processor 16gb of memory :'(

[DarthSublimitas]

As a fellow scientist (I hope you don't mean psychology), what processor and GPU do you have? 12GB ram and 3TB HDD won't do much towards performance over 4gb of ram in swtor

 

I have an i7 quad core. NVIDIA GeForce GTX 570 1.25 GB

[morbidillusion]

My argument is that your argument is flawed because you do not provide any proof as to why you are right.

 

I don't provide any proof? I have provided significant proof, you simply reject it because you don't like the logical conclusion it supports.

 

This is your argument, and it's fallacious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Edited January 10, 2012 by morbidillusion

[Setanian]

LMAO at the "I took Philosophy 1A at the Community College" in this thread.

 

To Mr. Occam, perhaps the simplest reason the game is on rails with channeled movement and instances is because of scripting?

 

I want you to imagine the complexity of the scripting in this game and making sure that things happen in order so that dialogue makes sense? And that 4 classes with separate class quests have to make sense within each entire faction?

 

Think of the massive permutations involved and trying to keep all of that on point.

 

BW stated early on that the game would lean *heavily* towards a themepark and they were unapologetic about it. Themepark = game on rails, more instances.

 

The simplest reason for game design mechanics choices is overall game design, lol. Occam would also reject your reason (the engine can't handle it) due to the fact that many, many players play the game without performance issues... (including myself)

 

Thanks for your wiki philosophy though...

 

There are clearly players who are having performance issues *and* there are clearly players that do not. I do not pretend to have the answer for the disparity.

 

However, most of the supposition for the reasons on these forums don't hold water. Most of them are dispproven by the players *that have had no issues*. If it is the game causing the issue, why do so many have *zero* issues?

 

You can't blame the engine when I am standing at Fleet GTN near 40 players with no lag.

 

I am not saying that player's performance issues don't exist. I am questioning what people are blaming...

 

And, I question what people are saying..

 

I play SW:TOR on a mac in a VM instance of Win 7, therefore I if anybody should be having issues. And I do have issues, but not so much as I'm going to ditch the game because of them. (God knows there are plenty of other reasons for ditching it tho)

 

That aside, the game *is* one instance after another. It is on rails. And it has nothing to do with scripting either. I was writing MuDs back in 84 with scripting and never had any issues. That's simply because the 'permutations' are simplistic. Each of the instances have flags, each of the quests have flags. Those flags are checked against the player's flags. Simple basic code.

 

The problem at hand is the lag. Which is, and I have checked, predominantly related to the size of the instance and number of players within it. I can run around Tython all day playing on a mac as I do, but as soon as I hit the spaceport area, I lag to hell and back.

 

That has nothing to do with your permutations. It is to do with the engine trying to redraw all the moving crap.

 

Moving onwards, if I play Rift in the same VM I get no lag. If I play WoW I get no lag and there are hundreds of players playing.

 

This all points to the game engine. I play in Euro time. Maybe it's something to do with the server balances. But, this engine is not up to spec.

 

You weigh heavily on 'clearly players that do not'. This can only be based on what is in the forums, which is heavily visited by people defending their new game. And that's fine, but, it is by no means a yardstick on which the engine should be measured.

 

If I can run around tython with no lag, but only get it near a large city based structure, then it is the engine and the servers.

 

We had all this years ago in 'Plane of Knowledge' on Everquest, and more recently in 'LagForge' on WoW. Back then we had people claiming it 'ran fine for them' it just be your rig, it must be your iso, it must be you. What happened? Some bug fixes and code changes and suddenly everyone was running around without lag, even in LagForge.

[AJediKnight]

And, I question what people are saying..

 

I play SW:TOR on a mac in a VM instance of Win 7, therefore I if anybody should be having issues. And I do have issues, but not so much as I'm going to ditch the game because of them. (God knows there are plenty of other reasons for ditching it tho)

 

That aside, the game *is* one instance after another. It is on rails. And it has nothing to do with scripting either. I was writing MuDs back in 84 with scripting and never had any issues. That's simply because the 'permutations' are simplistic. Each of the instances have flags, each of the quests have flags. Those flags are checked against the player's flags. Simple basic code.

 

The problem at hand is the lag. Which is, and I have checked, predominantly related to the size of the instance and number of players within it. I can run around Tython all day playing on a mac as I do, but as soon as I hit the spaceport area, I lag to hell and back.

 

That has nothing to do with your permutations. It is to do with the engine trying to redraw all the moving crap.

 

Moving onwards, if I play Rift in the same VM I get no lag. If I play WoW I get no lag and there are hundreds of players playing.

 

This all points to the game engine. I play in Euro time. Maybe it's something to do with the server balances. But, this engine is not up to spec.

 

You weigh heavily on 'clearly players that do not'. This can only be based on what is in the forums, which is heavily visited by people defending their new game. And that's fine, but, it is by no means a yardstick on which the engine should be measured.

 

If I can run around tython with no lag, but only get it near a large city based structure, then it is the engine and the servers.

 

We had all this years ago in 'Plane of Knowledge' on Everquest, and more recently in 'LagForge' on WoW. Back then we had people claiming it 'ran fine for them' it just be your rig, it must be your iso, it must be you. What happened? Some bug fixes and code changes and suddenly everyone was running around without lag, even in LagForge.

 

Truth.

[Cuillin]

You need a better PC. No problems here.

[Argolith]

I don't provide any proof? I have provided significant proof, you simply reject it because you don't like the logical conclusion it supports.

 

This is your argument, and it's fallacious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

 

I am not using a logical fallacy. You are making the claim. You do not have evidence to support your claim, yet expect me to believe it because I cannot prove it to be false.

 

You are using the logical fallacy, not I.

 

I have a reputable source (A bioware employee, in an interview with eurogamer that I have already linked multiple times in this thread) that states that a majority of the FPS issues are localized issues that they have a team of developers going around and fixing.

 

Therefore evidence is in support of my supposition that this is the cause of degradation of performance as opposed to limitations inherent to the hero engine.

 

 

edit: Grammarz

Edited January 10, 2012 by Argolith

[Hanni]

Yeah my PC is crap too. I only have an i7 processor 16gb of memory :'(

 

I use a C2D and a GTX260. Compared to yours, my PC is crap.

 

4GB of RAM DDR2 at 800mhz.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Hanni

[Blurble]

I play at max settings and get FPS drops when I go by areas of heavy traffic (like a mailbox in the fleet).

 

This doesn't happen in "that other game". I guess my computer actually achieved self awareness and is purposely doing this to bother me.

[AJediKnight]

I play at max settings and get FPS drops when I go by areas of heavy traffic (like a mailbox in the fleet).

 

This doesn't happen in "that other game". I guess my computer actually achieved self awareness and is purposely doing this to bother me.

 

This.

 

I'm in the same boat.

[DarthSublimitas]

And, I question what people are saying..

 

I play SW:TOR on a mac in a VM instance of Win 7, therefore I if anybody should be having issues. And I do have issues, but not so much as I'm going to ditch the game because of them. (God knows there are plenty of other reasons for ditching it tho)

 

That aside, the game *is* one instance after another. It is on rails. And it has nothing to do with scripting either. I was writing MuDs back in 84 with scripting and never had any issues. That's simply because the 'permutations' are simplistic. Each of the instances have flags, each of the quests have flags. Those flags are checked against the player's flags. Simple basic code.

 

The problem at hand is the lag. Which is, and I have checked, predominantly related to the size of the instance and number of players within it. I can run around Tython all day playing on a mac as I do, but as soon as I hit the spaceport area, I lag to hell and back.

 

That has nothing to do with your permutations. It is to do with the engine trying to redraw all the moving crap.

 

Moving onwards, if I play Rift in the same VM I get no lag. If I play WoW I get no lag and there are hundreds of players playing.

 

This all points to the game engine. I play in Euro time. Maybe it's something to do with the server balances. But, this engine is not up to spec.

 

You weigh heavily on 'clearly players that do not'. This can only be based on what is in the forums, which is heavily visited by people defending their new game. And that's fine, but, it is by no means a yardstick on which the engine should be measured.

 

If I can run around tython with no lag, but only get it near a large city based structure, then it is the engine and the servers.

 

We had all this years ago in 'Plane of Knowledge' on Everquest, and more recently in 'LagForge' on WoW. Back then we had people claiming it 'ran fine for them' it just be your rig, it must be your iso, it must be you. What happened? Some bug fixes and code changes and suddenly everyone was running around without lag, even in LagForge.

 

 

DING DING DING - GOOD GOD WATSON, I BELIEVE THIS MAN HAS IT! I totally agree with you. I don't have ANY probs with WoW or Rift - and there are tons of peeps in WoW and enough with Rift. And for those of you who played Rift, then you know that their graphics are 100% better there and I SUFFER NO LAG. Therefore, it MUST be the engine that they're using.

 

I really don't believe that their engine has the capability to render a lot at any one given time - ergo the lag. This is a serious issue that REALLY needs to be addressed. They need to ditch this engine and get something that's, oh I don't know, FROM THIS CENTURY...

 

That's all...

[kishe]

What's funny is that Hero's Journey gameplay vids from 2005 looks better than SWTOR.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifpq2wVTzME&feature=related

 

Notice the more detailed character creator

[DarthSublimitas]

i play at max settings and get fps drops when i go by areas of heavy traffic (like a mailbox in the fleet).

 

This doesn't happen in "that other game". I guess my computer actually achieved self awareness and is purposely doing this to bother me.

 

rofl!

[sdream]

I never meant to degrade you based on your native language. All I am asking for is a little proof that there are inherent limitations in the Hero Engine that causes it not to be able to handle more than 20 people in an area without significant performance degradation.

 

I put forward that these "Limitations" that has been put forward are in fact bugs/issues with optimization of the application of the engine and not inherent flaws of the engine itself, and that Bioware is aware of these issues and is working diligently to resolve them.

 

I didn't actually say that the engine is limited to 20 characters on the screen. However, API itself is limited to the actual number of 3D objects one can render. It's much greater then 20 However, my main issue (it's off-topic, of course) is the choice of API combined with the engine. I don't need to sources of actual limitations, because I can argue about cons and pros of available graphical software/hardware APIs, because I happen to be a developer of scientific software for GPU farms. So, yeah... They can jump through the hoops trying to fix performance issues here and there but they won't be able to overcome actual API limitations.