CHOICE IS AN ILLUSION - not an RPG - MMO on rails

[a_Stalker]

The OP compares this game to WoW, but has apparently never played WoW since the Cataclysm expansion. Example: Mount Hyjal. You make your way down a path going down around a mountain. The quests lead you down, one step at a time, with no variation whatsoever. Compared to the actual choices you make in SWTOR, and the variation in different class story lines, WoW is much more an on the rails game.

 

/endthread.

 

That is a lie. Withholding facts in order to make a point.

 

Even in Cataclysm, which I admit is the worst I have ever seen in WOW, and only 5 levels, you still have TWO areas to level in at 80-81, HYJAL and VASHIR. You can even visit both. You can also skip them and just do dungeons. Do what you like. You can even avoid these areas altogether. You can level in Northrend instead at least a level if not more.

 

Unlike SWTOR where you are on tracks with no choices.

[Veala]

All choice is an illusion but if the illusion is never revealed by the same thing happening anyway, the illusion is not destroyed, thus creating in your mind a perception and roleplayability of your unique character.

 

I can't speak for every class, but the Imperial Agent storyline has 5 different endings depending on choices you make at key plot points and your character's overall disposition (light/neutral/dark). Simply put, keep playing, you're wrong =p

 

TOR has a different method of storytelling than WoW. WoW has one big story that's going to play out the same no matter what you say or do (or even if you don't do it at all). TOR has a story dedicated to your character that you dictate, but the consequence is that the story has to happen in the order that it's written. If that's not your cup of tea, then more power to ya. I love it =p

 

EDIT: Double posted and mis quoted at first, these forums confuse me sometimes =p

Edited January 10, 2012 by Veala

[Draflorin]

I agree with some of what you said, for many of the quests it doesn't matter one bit what response you give you end up with the same task to perform anyway. but there are times where you get to let some one live or leave them behind at the mercy of some sith space captain and the small part of the story line changes for that quest only.

 

However this being said I cant see that any of the choices we make really affect the story of the character at all - its all predetermined, on some characters I've tried disobeying direct orders a number of times - I just get a slap on the hand and "we'll let you off since your a hero"

 

Would be great if choice paths opened alternative quest lines - not for every choice offered but at least at 4 or 5 pivotal storyline points. or by disobeying orders caused you to be transferred to another handler or got the old one fired or something

[Karai]

In Fallout 3 I killed that DJ in the Washington ruins, which then proceeded to mess up the entire story line because he was a necessary character. Now that's freedom of choice. He shouldn't have been rude to me and maybe he'd still be alive. But that ability to forge your own destiny is what attached me to that game and gives it a great memory in my mind. The story was my own, the decision to kill him was my own.

 

Elder scrolls are much the same - I don't know what you're talking about. You can kill whoever you want in Elder Scrolls, steal from whoever you want... Kill someone and take over their house, or be a bandit hiding out in the woods, or a noble wizard whose friends with the king, CHOICE is the beauty of Elder Scrolls, and on top of that the quests/enemies actually provide a challenge as you proceed.

 

Except that world in no way reflects the choices you make, if I make a choice in Bioware game, there are consequences (Alpha Protocol did a good job in this). If I make a choice in TES game, noone gives a damn... and unability to finish game becouse I killed NPC I wasn't supposed to is poor design, not consequence, it would be valid choice if game adapted to it and I was able to proceed some other way. I'd rather play game where choice is an Illusion, but that reacts to my choices, than one where I can do whatever I wish while the world ignores it.

[Jonlinar]

I would really love to see an MMO where the world organically changes over time and every PC can effect global change for everyone. Eve Online does this to a great degree but it still has it's protected systems. Just let the system play out. Developers need to let the reigns of power transfer to the player base. It's okay, I promise.

[Veala]

That is a lie. Withholding facts in order to make a point.

 

Even in Cataclysm, which I admit is the worst I have ever seen in WOW, and only 5 levels, you still have TWO areas to level in at 80-81, HYJAL and VASHIR. You can even visit both. You can also skip them and just do dungeons. Do what you like. You can even avoid these areas altogether. You can level in Northrend instead at least a level if not more.

 

Unlike SWTOR where you are on tracks with no choices.

 

In TOR you can level in instances, level in pvp, level in space combat, or level in heroic quests. The only requirement is that you complete your class story in order (which is unique per class btw, level up 3 characters in WoW and you're completely out of new content).

[Screamster]

BW had openly stated in an interview (on totalbiscuit I think) that the "on the rails" questing is intentional!

 

^^^ this.

 

It is supposed to give you the feel of the films. They build drama. A story line of your character per se.

 

That is the one thing I hated about WOW. the feeling of, "Oh great. I have to drop off a package to another NPC." For what? Who really gives a crap?

 

Once you hit 50, then it's either raiding, PVP, crafting, slicing, helping out guildies, or make another character till an expansion pack comes out.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Screamster

[Kurnea]

I would really love to see an MMO where the world organically changes over time and every PC can effect global change for everyone. Eve Online does this to a great degree but it still has it's protected systems. Just let the system play out. Developers need to let the reigns of power transfer to the player base. It's okay, I promise.

 

It's ok for people who want a sandbox game. For those that want a themepark game, that's not what they want.

[abishe]

my friend, true RPG died long ago.

called Planescape torment.

 

 

 

now those day's even you'r basic stats are even distrubuted manual, even in single player games

[a_Stalker]

I can't speak for every class, but the Imperial Agent storyline has 5 different endings depending on choices you make at key plot points and your character's overall disposition (light/neutral/dark). Simply put, keep playing, you're wrong =p

 

TOR has a different method of storytelling than WoW. WoW has one big story that's going to play out the same no matter what you say or do (or even if you don't do it at all). TOR has a story dedicated to your character that you dictate, but the consequence is that the story has to happen in the order that it's written. If that's not your cup of tea, then more power to ya. I love it =p

 

Although this has never interested me, whether I influence the world or not, in WOW you do have something similar, I believe they call phasing. But let me point out it is not whether your story influences the world, but whether you have choices where and when and how to level.

 

Regarding your point:

Basically you fly/run into an area which has a quest line associated with it. Depending in your personal progress in this quest line, you see different things, the whole area (the size of a SWTOR planet) is differemt to you than to your mate, who is flying next to you and has completed that quest line.

 

You see burning forests he sees lush greens. And so on.

 

As I said this never really interested me.

[Kurnea]

my friend, true RPG died long ago.

called Planescape torment.

 

 

 

now those day's even you'r basic stats are even distrubuted manual, even in single player games

 

 

Torment was more of a singular occurrence in CRPGS. Such games didn't so much die as they briefly existed.

[Valenthor]

Choice is always an illusion in ALL video games. NOT just this game, it is in every SINGLE game that pretends to give you meaningful choices (RPGs). They have little effect because it is way too difficult to program multiple outcomes across multiple quests. I am sorry that video games have not advanced enough to please you. Maybe come back in 10 years?

[Kesh_]

Could you name me an RPG, MMO or otherwise, where you can do precisely what you are ranting about?

 

Planescape: Torment

Morrowind

Gothic 1-3 (not 4)

Darklands

Old Gold Box AD&D games

Arcanum Of Steamworks and Magicka

Quest for Glory Series

Fallout Series

Edited January 10, 2012 by Kesh_

[TheRealDestian]

That is a lie. Withholding facts in order to make a point.

 

Even in Cataclysm, which I admit is the worst I have ever seen in WOW, and only 5 levels, you still have TWO areas to level in at 80-81, HYJAL and VASHIR. You can even visit both. You can also skip them and just do dungeons. Do what you like. You can even avoid these areas altogether. You can level in Northrend instead at least a level if not more.

 

Unlike SWTOR where you are on tracks with no choices.

 

At level 80, Hyjal and only Hyjal is available to you because it's the ONLY place you can start a quest chain.

 

You. Are. Wrong.

[a_Stalker]

In TOR you can level in instances, level in pvp, level in space combat, or level in heroic quests. The only requirement is that you complete your class story in order (which is unique per class btw, level up 3 characters in WoW and you're completely out of new content).

 

How can you casually say "the **only** requirement is that you complete your class story" ?

 

This actually prohibits you from doing anything else. No companions, no space ship, no travel anywhere else.

 

And it is not as if you can go at level 16 to Coruscant to do a couple of quests and get your ship, you have to start from the very beginning, level 1. Actually you cannot even go anywhere else.

 

Yes about the 3 characters in WOW, but as you have choices in levelling, as you can mix and match grinding, quests, dungeons etc, wide open explorable world, the SWTOR experience does not even compare.

[a_Stalker]

At level 80, Hyjal and only Hyjal is available to you because it's the ONLY place you can start a quest chain.

 

You. Are. Wrong.

 

You are lieing or are misinformed. You can go to Vashir. You can also go to Northrend. You do not need to go to Hyjal ever. At all. Never.

[LazyWon]

My first ~15 levels or so I made choices made as if I were roleplaying (something I hardly EVER do in games). I wanted to feel connected to my character.

 

I killed a few NPCs who were real a-holes, and I saved some other people who didn't deserve a grisly fate. Then went to the light/dark side vendors and saw all of the relics were based on your light/dark points.

 

I had accrued 1200 light side and 1050 dark side. I could use exactly zero relics in the game.

 

Worst game design.

 

Ever.

 

Agreed, we have light and dark gear options but there is nothing for the grey/neutral player. Me and another guildie feel that Bioware really missed the boat on that one. In spite of this, I still hope to achieve 5000 light / 5000 dark on an alt I am leveling, but I'm not sure there are enough missions with light/dark choices to make that possible.

[Elkard]

Everything the OP, and others, say is untrue. Choice matters and becomes more so the higher levels you go. I feel some people fail to realize that for lightside/darkside gains you have to be level I, II, III, IV & V. I have lightside relics--glad to have them (my scores are 2550 lightside/700 darkside). Just as in most, no all, MMOs I have had the bad fortune to experience over the years, I notice 99% of complaints are invalid and show me how people just do not take the time to "fathom" the game elements. I played down the flirting on my Inquisitor and she's alone; I played up the flirting on my Jedi and unlocked Companion story line. Now there is choice that can be quantified, catelogged...nvm. Most people in MMORPGs during the last ten years merely want a Multiplayer version of a console game--notice those epeening around in culture centers (sorry, I don't need to run around with my sabre hanging out or riding a vehicle on the space station, that's that's just too creepy). Of course I am 100% sure these same trolls are one's--or related to those--who keep making the same complaints about "game broken" I've been reading on forums since 2003, no....2000. The choices are real and do affect the story in subtle ways. Just play and enjoy...yyou will see, but please people if all you want to do is naysay, call for nerfs, and complain just keep it to yourselves--you are interfering with my game and my good time.

[Qoaa]

yea it's very strict linear progression

 

like when you first meet new companion I had the option to put Lord Scourge in jail, I had the option to say like I dont want him, have him put in prison.

 

 

no matter what you choose, your choice does not matter, he is forced onto you.

 

 

same with most normal quests, you cant make a difference and choose different outcomes in the Big Picture, no matter your choice the game's script decides ultimately for you by making the npc say "well you might not like it, but you gonna do it anyway" type stuff

 

So I agree with the OP, it's very very linear.

 

but with that said I AM Enjoying the story, but at the moment Im in the mid 40's I can see playing a couple alt's to watch "their movie" but I don't see any long term content as of the moment.

 

but things are new so we'll wait and see.

[Mannilenium]

Sith corruption is definitely a choice, I mean, look at my dudes FACE!

[Veala]

How can you casually say "the **only** requirement is that you complete your class story" ?

 

This actually prohibits you from doing anything else. No companions, no space ship, no travel anywhere else.

 

And it is not as if you can go at level 16 to Coruscant to do a couple of quests and get your ship, you have to start from the very beginning, level 1. Actually you cannot even go anywhere else.

 

Yes about the 3 characters in WOW, but as you have choices in levelling, as you can mix and match grinding, quests, dungeons etc, wide open explorable world, the SWTOR experience does not even compare.

 

I'm curious how you can so casually dismiss the fact that every class in TOR has a 100% unique content chain?

 

Yes, you are required to do the content that is unique to your class. Why wouldn't you want to? When I'm leveling a new character in WoW I don't think to myself, "Self, I believe I'll hike over to Wetlands and do it again instead of going through this new zone of Ashenvale that I'm standing right next to."

 

You can do all of the things you just listed as options in WoW in TOR. You don't have to repeat the planet content chains that every class has access to. If you want you can just burn through your unique class content on every planet and make up the difference with instances and pvp. I'm on my second character and I've skipped chains I didn't like and done a lot of group content I missed the first time. I also completely skipped some planets content on my first character as I overleveled it from Instancing and PvP that I'll be doing on my second character. I'm going to be repeating a minority of content on my BH I assure you, and every single character that I make is going to have at least some unique content that I've never seen. That's awesome.

 

Like I said, the only requirement of TOR is that you do your class's unique content. I'm not sure how you can spin having fresh content on every character you make into a bad thing. This is coming from someone with 7 85's in WoW btw, I'll take TOR leveling any day of the week.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Veala

[TheRealDestian]

How can you casually say "the **only** requirement is that you complete your class story" ?

 

This actually prohibits you from doing anything else. No companions, no space ship, no travel anywhere else.

 

And it is not as if you can go at level 16 to Coruscant to do a couple of quests and get your ship, you have to start from the very beginning, level 1. Actually you cannot even go anywhere else.

 

Yes about the 3 characters in WOW, but as you have choices in levelling, as you can mix and match grinding, quests, dungeons etc, wide open explorable world, the SWTOR experience does not even compare.

 

You people are literally eligible for involuntary institutionalization if you feel this way...

 

WoW's quests and where to do them were "choices" in the same way picking between being lynched or decapitated is a "choice": either way, you're still being executed. Neither one gave you anything loosely resembling a different "outcome".

 

You're actually using the class quest, one of SWTOR's BEST features (and one sorely missing from WoW to give you a sense of "who" your character actually is), as an example of "forcing" you to do things you don't want to do?

 

What you want is for the game to give you all skills, abilities and improvements as soon as you create the character, right? What about a sense of development and feeling like you're progressing?

 

The reason you don't get your ship and companions immediately is because the game wants you to have that sense of progress, like you're working toward something. Plus, the class storylines are the highlight of the game.

 

If you believe otherwise and are complaining about them "forcing" you to do things in order to progress, I can only imagine that the developers are reading this thread and laughing their heads off at you.

 

Really, go back to WoW already.

[MegaBubble]

@OP: I found your comparisons to WoW and how it was a game that offered "real" choice laughable.

[pakchooieunf]

Can anyone point out, since I've only played up to 30-35 on a Consular and Agent, an instance where a choice taken through dialogue options had lasting effects on their character story?

 

Everything I've seen, up to this point, suggest that choices only adjust your storyline in the most superficial ways, immediately changing a bit of dialogue, but having no other memorable effect. For instance, choosing to spare a ruthlessly evil Sith, only to have that character come back later on, or forever change the possibility of options and outcomes later on... that would be an example of lasting effects.

 

When interacting with an NPC, you might choose some insulting words, the NPC makes a resentful remark, but then otherwise continues the conversation as if you'd done nothing wrong. This is to be expected to a large extent, since writers don't have enough time to write out branching story lines with multiple possible outcomes - what you really get are a few "flavor" options, but eventually all roads collapse to a single point, with a single outcome.

 

So far I've accepted this for what it is, but there seem to be some people in this thread who claim this isn't the case. I'd like to be wrong.

 

I don't care to discuss the matter of light/dark points, it's a stupid, inarticulate system that isn't worth thinking about. I just want to know about ramifications.

Edited January 10, 2012 by pakchooieunf

[Ryzerion]

Why can't we admit that this was BW's intention?

 

Just like the static world was an intention as well.

 

Just admit it but it's still possible for one to admit he's enjoying the game and trying his/her best to act as if the world isn't static when it is and the game isn't linear than most which it is lol.

 

OP makes it sound bad, so I guess you guys have to prove him wrong, personally y'all are entertainment when I take a break from the story which is linear.Like if I took huge offense to this post I actually would let it sink and not go to the first page but eh well.

 

I mean who ever wanted dynamic story or quests that even if you don't do your PS it still makes you matter, this isn't your game lmao.

 

Which I personally can't wait to get that experience again in that MMORPG but that's another story.