Arsenal Mercs have zero survivability

[Gadrak]

Aren't you missing the point here ?

 

If you were playing a scoundrel, im sure you would be saying something like "***, its nice to be able to burst someone and kill it, but each time we expose ourselves, its high chance to die or we have to flee away, cuz vanish is nice but there are dots and aoe/etc, and we should not rely only on 1v1 for pvp !"

 

do you get it ?

 

i swear to god, ope and scoundrel's weakness are "group" pvp until they got a support to heal or mez other classes in order to cover them (like all classes afaik), otherwise its gang bang (and i know it because I am the one killing them like nothing if they pop out near an ally w/o back up) on em if its not too much chaos

 

So this last statement was just false and wrong, sry

 

 

about sorc's tornado, get yourself a sorc to cleanse you and put tornado on others support ... ?

 

BUT i agree too that they could have improved a bit your tools, face to what others classes have, but for me it's only cuz the sorc (and maybe some others) got too much of em, this game will end up with all classes having cc/mez/bump/self shield/speed boost/stun/immune cc/etc

 

period.

 

actually is not false,you just said that their weakness is group and that they are supposed to win 1v1 -.-

[Yazule]

Aren't you missing the point here ?

 

If you were playing a scoundrel, im sure you would be saying something like "***, its nice to be able to burst someone and kill it, but each time we expose ourselves, its high chance to die or we have to flee away, cuz vanish is nice but there are dots and aoe/etc, and we should not rely only on 1v1 for pvp !"

 

do you get it ?

 

i swear to god, ope and scoundrel's weakness are "group" pvp until they got a support to heal or mez other classes in order to cover them (like all classes afaik), otherwise its gang bang (and i know it because I am the one killing them like nothing if they pop out near an ally w/o back up) on em if its not too much chaos

 

So this last statement was just false and wrong, sry

 

 

about sorc's tornado, get yourself a sorc to cleanse you and put tornado on others support ... ?

 

BUT i agree too that they could have improved a bit your tools, face to what others classes have, but for me it's only cuz the sorc (and maybe some others) got too much of em, this game will end up with all classes having cc/mez/bump/self shield/speed boost/stun/immune cc/etc

 

period.

 

sorry man but your argument does not hold water

 

"we suck in groups unless we are being healed, and we win in 1v1"

 

vs bh who says

 

"we suck in groups unless we are being healed, and we lose to stealthers in 1v1"

 

now if you died vs a BH with both of us having a healer, that would be different, but it is not

 

fyi i am not thinkin we need a ton of love, just that your argument is not logical.

[Gadrak]

sorry man but your argument does not hold water

 

"we suck in groups unless we are being healed, and we win in 1v1"

 

vs bh who says

 

"we suck in groups unless we are being healed, and we lose to stealthers in 1v1"

 

now if you died vs a BH with both of us having a healer, that would be different, but it is not

 

fyi i am not thinkin we need a ton of love, just that your argument is not logical.

 

fyi i was talking about scoundrels up there not mercenaries

 

 

you misread what i said,mercenaries are more efficient in a group,because if you group is a competent one,your opponent would be busy to deal with melee classes on their faces or healers because they are sustaining the other team,it's very difficult that they would target someone who is 30M on distance on top of a ledge(most of the time)

 

the ars mercenary does not lose to stealthers on 1v1, he lose against anything besides the gunslinger and the guardian.

 

the group factor helps because most of the time if the group is good we are going to get ignored by other classes

 

on a 2v2 scenario it's different,because your healer would go OOM(or whatever the resource his) healing you,because a smart oppontent will interrupt your main damaging ability and kicking your *** all the day long

 

of course you would say"oh but there are other attacks besides tracer"

 

too bad that we need tracer for

 

stacking the protective shield

 

granting the use of railshot and it's empowerment

 

granting the unload buff

 

obtaining the bonus damage on HSM

 

we are retardedly dependant on TM,and while the entire combo can result devastating this scenario is pretty much non existant when the enemy doesnt allow you to do anything.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Gadrak

[MadSven]

i didnt explaned myself very well

 

here the point is, ope and scoundrel got high burst, but after that, you lose the invisibility start and your dps drop drastically, when the dps of a merc is constant

 

if i'm wrong, then i give you the point about 2v2, but here again, there is too much about placement, and hazard about the mez/cc of the 2 groups (merc+sorc vs ope+sorc), so you cant determine the output and end of this pvp

 

and my biggest point was not just like 2v2, merc and ope with a heal, but a fairly 3+ vs 3+ like in huttball or voidstar, alderan ... both of you turned it this way

 

yet you would argue about "what if a group assist" but its just another point, if it's well prepared team, they will know which target to protect, meaning strategy can evolve or be different for each pvp (which is natural on a new game)

 

 

so yes it's sad, and i think that ope should have less tools, but its intended that they should be superior on 1v1 or while opening a pvp, its just the meaning of this class, there is nothing to argue, its a rogue

 

 

cause yet, i dont think its up to ppl that havent à whole sight of the game to decide if either some class need to get some skills/tools or either some class to have less skills/tools

 

 

dont think i'm not getting your frustration, i had also plenty as a MM sniper (yes i know its still different than a merc, still)

 

also, be sure it's hard to explain a whole idea due to : troll, fact that ppl dont read all post and whole posts, etc, and that anyway we cant fix shlt ourselves and some people are just not fair about they point of view

[Gadrak]

i didnt explaned myself very well

 

here the point is, ope and scoundrel got high burst, but after that, you lose the invisibility start and your dps drop drastically, when the dps of a merc is constant

 

if i'm wrong, then i give you the point about 2v2, but here again, there is too much about placement, and hazard about the mez/cc of the 2 groups (merc+sorc vs ope+sorc), so you cant determine the output and end of this pvp

 

and my biggest point was not just like 2v2, merc and ope with a heal, but a fairly 3+ vs 3+ like in huttball or voidstar, alderan ... both of you turned it this way

 

yet you would argue about "what if a group assist" but its just another point, if it's well prepared team, they will know which target to protect, meaning strategy can evolve or be different for each pvp (which is natural on a new game)

 

 

so yes it's sad, and i think that ope should have less tools, but its intended that they should be superior on 1v1 or while opening a pvp, its just the meaning of this class, there is nothing to argue, its a rogue

 

 

cause yet, i dont think its up to ppl that havent à whole sight of the game to decide if either some class need to get some skills/tools or either some class to have less skills/tools

 

 

dont think i'm not getting your frustration, i had also plenty as a MM sniper (yes i know its still different than a merc, still)

 

also, be sure it's hard to explain a whole idea due to : troll, fact that ppl dont read all post and whole posts, etc, and that anyway we cant fix shlt ourselves and some people are just not fair about they point of view

 

no

 

the ops should have less burst damage but more tools for survival

 

because yeah when they are out of stealth they are basically a free kill

 

but we can all agree that is insanely retarded that he can drop people with full expertise gear in 3-4 seconds

[MadSven]

Maybe, but be sure that if they got too much tools in order to survive, it means finishing frags and then ultra high possibility to flee away, get hp up and go back in stealth to do the same and almost "never" die ? cuz for me, skills to detect stealth or instant aoe are just not reliable to work nicely

 

they still got evade, flash, stun, vanish, shield prob, i doubt about leg shot ?, and so far i dont know by heart their skills

 

and the problem of ops/scoundrel is more about the armor penetration, meaning they kill easily "robes", "medium" AND heavy armor, all tanks are crying about this

 

 

i maybe rushed too fast the subject, but anyway i would agree that merc need some change to be more than a stationnary turret, but i still think it's some classes that are too op, more than merc gimped and/or w/o enough tools

Edited January 16, 2012 by MadSven

[Typheran]

Sages and sorcs are impossible to kill.

[XanderThrills]

The chances that every single one of your skills is going to be interrupted is extremely low, if by chance they are, then you have too many people on you and are going to die anyway.

 

 

The chances that you can get interrupted is HIGHLY likely, a Sith warrior charge ability has an interrupt and that's the first thing he is going to hit you with. Apart from our electro dart which is a stun, we have no interrupts, knock backs don't count because they don't affect your attackers cool downs.

 

Someone has already pointed this out but i feel the need to voice it again in more detail....

When you use tracer missiles, you get a 2% shield buff per stack with a maxium of 10%.

 

Now lets picture a scenario you have been interrupted stopping you from even getting your first TM off, you use rocket punch = pathetic knockback then you use jetboast because your enemy has already reengaged you before you can even fire off a single round.

 

The enemy stuns, deals typical damage, you use deliberation, then pop an electro dart on them, you fire two TM's if your lucky. Your back to getting harass'd, so you pop your shield/kolto overload, your TM is then interrupted again, the shield buff has gone because you couldn't fire another TM off in time to keep it stacked. Rotation continues, TM/TM/TM/Heatseeker/railshot, enemy starts to loose health rapidly, stuns you, force sprints round the corner, heals himself, you chose not to chase him because you are too slow, as the enemy has a head start because he stuned you he heals himself just enough to come back and finish you off.

 

I'd have to say thats a typical fight in a warzone, all these comments i am hearing about situational benefits like "make sure you are up high for effective knock backing" (only useful in huttball) or "try to not get noticed as much". I tell you what, how about you book yourself a flight to Afghanistan, strap a rocket launcher to your back and start letting rip on the local inhabitants and see how long it takes for someone to notice you.

[KodiakAsh]

All these "jetpack on my back!!!!11" comments are hilarious. You realize that anything they give to one mirror they will need to give to the other mirror (Commando in this case) which what will they get?

 

I like the idea of a blink, or leap, but could lead to some questionable scenarios. For example a lot of the game's environments are not designed for this kind of mechanic. Could lead to some sort of potential exploit within the environment that may not be seen or thought of currently. The rules of blink in WOW for example are fairly finite (must have a direct path to the target area) which may not be easy to implement in this game.

 

A more simpler truth is that I've almost never seen a thread like this really go anywhere. You could come up with the most bomb diggity idea of all time for a class that would be perfectly balanced and easily to implement but at the end of the day it's up to the Devs. You're better off posting scenarios that you're having trouble in, waiting for a dev response (see if that's intended, designed, or needs fixing) and then decide what to do (wait it out, reroll, quit the game).

 

Kinda glad their first patch was devoid of any knee jerk reactionary nerfs/buffs. We'll see if they can keep it up.

[NessusFett]

All these "jetpack on my back!!!!11" comments are hilarious. You realize that anything they give to one mirror they will need to give to the other mirror (Commando in this case) which what will they get?

 

I like the idea of a blink, or leap, but could lead to some questionable scenarios. For example a lot of the game's environments are not designed for this kind of mechanic. Could lead to some sort of potential exploit within the environment that may not be seen or thought of currently. The rules of blink in WOW for example are fairly finite (must have a direct path to the target area) which may not be easy to implement in this game.

 

A more simpler truth is that I've almost never seen a thread like this really go anywhere. You could come up with the most bomb diggity idea of all time for a class that would be perfectly balanced and easily to implement but at the end of the day it's up to the Devs. You're better off posting scenarios that you're having trouble in, waiting for a dev response (see if that's intended, designed, or needs fixing) and then decide what to do (wait it out, reroll, quit the game).

 

Kinda glad their first patch was devoid of any knee jerk reactionary nerfs/buffs. We'll see if they can keep it up.

 

I'd say thats a pretty damn common scenario.

 

and thats when you get the drop on people...

 

If you don't want to get pummeled constantly, you basically have to hide until you find a weak/distracted person or follow a pair of level 50s around.

[MasterKevlar]

arsenal is more of a stand there and spam TM, unload, and HSM and RS.

if ur getting attacked, jet boost, rocket punch them away. or use electro dart.

getting killed even more? USE UR SHIELD.

 

yes operative/scoundrels are going to cause u pain and suffering. but melee is a casters counter

[NessusFett]

arsenal is more of a stand there and spam TM, unload, and HSM and RS.

if ur getting attacked, jet boost, rocket punch them away. or use electro dart.

getting killed even more? USE UR SHIELD.

 

yes operative/scoundrels are going to cause u pain and suffering. but melee is a casters counter

 

except that you cant get far enough away in 4 seconds to leave them behind... you stun them and guess what.

5 seconds later you are getting attacked again.

 

if its assassin/op they go invisible and as you start to heal you get jumped.

if its sorc they catch you with force sprint.

if its jug or marauder they force leap to you...

if its sniper they can just hit you from where they are...

 

 

 

you have solved nothing. still.

[MasterKevlar]

except that you cant get far enough away in 4 seconds to leave them behind... you stun them and guess what.

5 seconds later you are getting attacked again.

 

if its assassin/op they go invisible and as you start to heal you get jumped.

if its sorc they catch you with force sprint.

if its jug or marauder they force leap to you...

if its sniper they can just hit you from where they are...

 

 

 

you have solved nothing. still.

 

if ur attacking any of these 1v1 (unless they are carrying the huttball) and not helping ur team win the match then u sir deserve to get *****

[XanderThrills]

if ur attacking any of these 1v1 (unless they are carrying the huttball) and not helping ur team win the match then u sir deserve to get *****

 

Real quality response, i guess trying to kill someone in a warzone isn't considered helping, you do realize when someone focus you in a group fight, that instantly becomes a 1v1 or do you continue to attack others while you are getting butt hurt by an operative in melee range?

[MasterKevlar]

Real quality response, i guess trying to kill someone in a warzone isn't considered helping, you do realize when someone focus you in a group fight, that instantly becomes a 1v1 or do you continue to attack others while you are getting butt hurt by an operative in melee range?

 

a GROUP fight is at least a 2v1. so if ur in one of those ur goin to get rolled. u need to get used to getting destroyed in any group/ 1v1 fight. if u hate "being squishy" reroll a tank.

 

if ur in a 1v1 on a door/turret point protecting/attacking then yeah, unless u get the upper hand first then ur goin to get rolled, which is acceptable. if ur attacking someone thats attacking ur fc then thats fine. but attacking someone out in the middle of no where, not near ur team at all or being of no help to anyone, then yeah u deserve the death.

[Majo_NDM]

We, all Mercs should have one more ability that can slow down opponents in my opinion. Thats all.

If malee get close to us - we die...

 

Author of this thread complains about arsenal, but what I should say if I'm a bodyguard? Im not dps, just healer with all "dps" abilities channeled... and on 45 lvl max i can dmg is 1.3k on critical... compared to 2-3k dmg i recives...

[XanderThrills]

a GROUP fight is at least a 2v1. so if ur in one of those ur goin to get rolled. u need to get used to getting destroyed in any group/ 1v1 fight. if u hate "being squishy" reroll a tank.

 

if ur in a 1v1 on a door/turret point protecting/attacking then yeah, unless u get the upper hand first then ur goin to get rolled, which is acceptable. if ur attacking someone thats attacking ur fc then thats fine. but attacking someone out in the middle of no where, not near ur team at all or being of no help to anyone, then yeah u deserve the death.

 

This whole 2v1 scenario you have for every single fight you are engaged in lacks substance, even in a team fight you need to be able to have sustainability, if one person can take you down in a teamfight, then your hardly helping the team.

 

I truly do not have the energy to further explain how gimped the arsenal tree is, has there seem to be those out there who disagree, am sure thats down to ignorance. I will say this when i play any one of my other classes, if i see an arsenal merc in huttball i instantly focus him because i know its going to be a free kill every time and i have yet to be proven wrong.

 

ATM i am playing on my powertech, made him really fat and called him Volstagg (get it?) its a much better class to pvp with than the merc, maybe i'll come back to my merc when he isnt so gimped in the mean time, if you truly are really good with an arsenal spec please submit some warzones on youtube of yourself playing, specifically showing us how you can handle being harassed because that would honestly make me reconsider my opinion.

[MasterKevlar]

to be honest, i like pyro more than arsenal. although if i was to stay pyro i might consider going powertech. charging and pulling seem better.

 

still doesnt save me form getting ***** by ops. or scoundrels. oh how i hate them...

[NessusFett]

to be honest, i like pyro more than arsenal. although if i was to stay pyro i might consider going powertech. charging and pulling seem better.

 

still doesnt save me form getting ***** by ops. or scoundrels. oh how i hate them...

 

you know... rolling pyrotech means you deserve to get ******

 

oh wait someone already took the unconstructive ******* spot on this topic

 

 

 

but for real. i feel there should be Something done to our class.

 

another soow move. an aoe leap. a jetpack sprint

anything really

[Typheran]

MasterKevlar doesn't know what he's talking about. When the 50 only bracket hits you'll see a huge conversion of people here agreeing with me. Killing undergeared, under abilitied lowbies is easy. Killing a geared 50 is a whooooooole different story.

 

I eat lowbies like tic-tacs (minus a sage, who can outheal my damage, interrupt TM spam and wear me down. ridiculous). Sadly this will slow down dramatically. You'll see Merc scores retain the damage amounts, but the kills will drop sharply when it's 50 only.

 

Glad you other guys are on topic.

[NessusFett]

MasterKevlar doesn't know what he's talking about. When the 50 only bracket hits you'll see a huge conversion of people here agreeing with me. Killing undergeared, under abilitied lowbies is easy. Killing a geared 50 is a whooooooole different story.

 

I eat lowbies like tic-tacs (minus a sage, who can outheal my damage, interrupt TM spam and wear me down. ridiculous). Sadly this will slow down dramatically. You'll see Merc scores retain the damage amounts, but the kills will drop sharply when it's 50 only.

 

Glad you other guys are on topic.

 

yeah throwing out obvious balance issues,

 

mercs arent much more than a level 50 turret that chills out on the upper levels of huttball. not very exciting to play personally /: and i was stoaked about the bh previously.

 

now considering a reroll.

[Typheran]

yeah throwing out obvious balance issues,

 

mercs arent much more than a level 50 turret that chills out on the upper levels of huttball. not very exciting to play personally /: and i was stoaked about the bh previously.

 

now considering a reroll.

 

yeah I agree. I find myself just DSP from the ramps. Going anywhere near the ball equals a quick CC'd death. With only a 2min Determination escape ability we die too fast if we try to do objectives in huttball.

[NessusFett]

yeah I agree. I find myself just DSP from the ramps. Going anywhere near the ball equals a quick CC'd death. With only a 2min Determination escape ability we die too fast if we try to do objectives in huttball.

 

well as an advanced class without a tanking option.

we aren't meant to really carry the ball so much as mow down ball carriers and protecting the ball carrier.

 

 

I just got out of a few great matches where i found myself catching the ball becuse of my advanced position on the scaffolding.

 

I actually made 2 touchdown passes after surviving with the bubble shield long enough to get in position. so we can carry it for a little bit.

 

just get mowed down more often than not if you dont have a resolve bar ready... or any team to protect yo ***

[Slurmez]

This kind of clueless post I expected a lot sooner to be honest.

 

Heavy Armor means really little in this game, when all the classes that don't have it get other ways to mitigate a lot of damage.

Inquisitors/Councilors get a shield that blocks a ton of damage; and Agents/Smugglers get cover. The only thing that feels squishier than my merc when getting trained is my Healing Smuggler without it's HoTs up and my Sniper when caught off guard out of cover.

Both of them counter that with more tools to escape or shut down enemies though.

 

As for the healing; that's just perspective. It's really hard to get a 2.5 second heal off in the midst of getting attacked. Especially since it only heals for like 2k, when you on average take more than double that in the same time period.

 

thats why you spec alacrity to reduce the cast time and interuptables and why you have other heals that are not so long to wind up, if you neglect your mitigation thats YOUR issue, if you choose to be a glass cannon and come and cry that you cant survive roll something else because its you thats sucking.

[Typheran]

thats why you spec alacrity to reduce the cast time and interuptables and why you have other heals that are not so long to wind up, if you neglect your mitigation thats YOUR issue, if you choose to be a glass cannon and come and cry that you cant survive roll something else because its you thats sucking.

 

The amount of alacrity you are talking about would basically kill all the accuracy, crit and surge you need to be competitive in pvp in the first place.

 

In my opinion after testing alacrity it takes way too much to be cost effective. the hit you take on your other stats make you hit like a girlscout. Plus heat becomes an issue in those big group fights, even though you are doing subpar damage, because you've traded away all you cirt, surge, accuracy and power.