Airees Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Problem isnt it's damge its the fact it follows it's target, should be more like troopers mortar shot which is fired at a target area. Move out of the area and you take no damage So you want the main damage ability of a class to be completely avoidable by any decent player ? How about No. No, we complain because it is an autofacing spam ability that is quite powerful and its something that not a lot of classes can counter besides one interrupt for four seconds that is on an extremely long cooldown. The autofacing is definitely sorta broken, however without it Merc would be completely unplayable considering the current state of pvp. It would literally be impossible to hit anyone in melee range with it, and with no tracer missile you're just a sitting duck. They would either need to completely fix the responsiveness or do a major redesign of the class. Edited January 10, 2012 by Airees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 While it is strong, it's also our biggest weakness. If you interrupt an early tracer missile you have more or less won (especially with the unload bug). ALL our other abilities are reliant on tracer missile to really do any noticable damage. If you lose to having one Tracer Missile being interrupted, you deserved it. As far as the ability itself, people need to understand just how important it is to an Arsenal Mercs rotation. 1-at 16 heat (specced) it has the highest single target damage per heat ratio. 2-if it crits, it costs even less (8 heat) but no more than every 3 seconds. 3-it gives a 20% armor debuff with 3-5 uses (depending on spec). 4-when specced it also applies a 10% damage reduction to the player. 5 Tracer Missiles are needed to apply the full buff. 5-it procs the use of and increases the damage of Rail Shot with a stack of 5. 5 Tracer Missiles are needed, regardless of spec. 6-it increases the damage of Heatseeker missiles with a stack of 5. 3-5 Tracer Missiles are needed depending on spec. 7-it gives a chance to proc a damage boost for and finish the cooldown of Unload. It's been like this for months since beta. If they were going to nerf it, they would have already. There's plenty Arsenal Mercs don't get (all Mercs for that matter) that counterbalance how strong TM is. Playing a BH myself, I make it a goal to point out the true Tracer spammers (and Commando counterparts) in WZs to my guild to grief them. Does it need a nerf? No. If they increase the cooldown of it, expect the damage to go up as well. I think if the devs made Power Shot just as viable and important to the BH's rotation, people would stop complaining. Then again, they probably would still complain, knowing these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheelin Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 This PROVES my original point. We DONT spam only this ability, its the only ability you see being used because everything else is instant except for unload. We use about 15 or so other abilities that you don't see/pay attention to. I know good players in other classes that can out damage me, they are as geared as I am. But the problem is MOST of the players aren't good at their class and don't realize their potential. I personally know marauders, snipers, operatives, and sorcs that out damage me. You also have to realize that Mercs offer no utility except for the armor debuff that others get as well. Mercenary should be a T1 class so if we are allowed to sit there and spam all our dps then we should be top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tremk Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This PROVES my original point. We DONT spam only this ability, its the only ability you see being used because everything else is instant except for unload. We use about 15 or so other abilities that you don't see/pay attention to. which means the rest of your abilities should require casting times instead of being spammed in god mode randomness to get out the most numbers. theres something extremely wrong with a class that has the armor of a tank and the dps capability in the 90% range of a sniper who is overpowered to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airees Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) If you lose to having one Tracer Missile being interrupted, you deserved it. As far as the ability itself, people need to understand just how important it is to an Arsenal Mercs rotation. I'm not saying it's an auto-loss, but if you get your first tracer interrupted and then go into a bugged Unload (which seems to happen quite often after interrupts) you're pretty damn far behind. I guess it depends on what class the opponent is though. Edited January 10, 2012 by Airees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheelin Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I don't think it's much of a complaint as much of that it is your highest damage total dealer, it's that it holds such a large majority. If you have 3-4 abilities hovering around 15-20% of your total damage and the rest below that, then it's fine for the most part. However, if yuor tracer missile is like 60% and everything else fills that 40%, then we have a problem. Which I know right now it's kind of hard to state the %age of damage each ability is doing and I don't have a BH of my own to really see for myself, but I can tell you it feels like all you guys do is tracer missile, instants or not, and those tracers hurt rather quickly. And as to the operative...operative damage dealers are meant to be VERY powerful in their opener, though how powerful that opener is right now I feel is a little too high, but that is how they're supposed to work. They tell me that their steady dps out of stealth is a joke. Though I don't have nearly enough experience fighting them to make a judgement of that(truth be told I think I can count how many I've fought on one hand). High level ones obliterate me before I can stand up, however, lower level ones with which I now know what cc from them to break, are hardly a challenge at all and I'm not even 50 yet so you can't really call it expertise. Operative weakpoint is breaking their early cc and shutting down their opener. However, the thread is about BH. And right now I see BHs do two things: Tracer Missile and Grapple me into traps....that's it. Right now anything between a lvl 50 with gear and a non lvl 50 can't be counted. Anyone not level 50 I have absolutely no issue with 1v1. My gear just makes me too strong. Any 50 with the gear I have should be able to laugh at any no 50 trying to do dmg so the comparison between the 2 shouldn't even be made. People that spam tracer missile only are doing it wrong. My rotation in a fight is 2x Tracer Missile followed by explosive dart (delayed detonation time), 1x Tracer missile, 1x Heatseeker missile. The final 3 abilities hit all at the same time for some nice burst. Then I follow up with a rail shot. I play it by ear after that alternating cooldowns when they are up with tracer missile only filling the gap between them. Using unload when the dmg boost talen procs. edit: however, interrupting me or stunning me in my rotation can hurt me quite a bit. Edited January 10, 2012 by Pheelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeth Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) People complain because the whole build is cheap. You are right, its not that one ability. Its how all the abilities stack to make a person with rediculous damage output and massive reduction in incoming damage. The survivability and the damage output needs to be nerfed to be in line with other DPS specs. I jumped on the bandwagon and made a 50 Arsenal Merc, and its just pathetically easy to do twice as much damage as any other spec while being in no real danger of spike damage yourself... unless of course theres a few other tracer missile / grav round cheapos on the other team... which is more and more common these days. Usually about 50% players in the battlegrounds on my server are this spec now. Edited January 10, 2012 by Daeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalidaa Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The skill tree need te be redone, they just have to use 1 skill to have so much benefits from it. When others classes have to use 5-10 skills to do the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durzaka Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 which means the rest of your abilities should require casting times instead of being spammed in god mode randomness to get out the most numbers. theres something extremely wrong with a class that has the armor of a tank and the dps capability in the 90% range of a sniper who is overpowered to start with. The rest of our abilities also have a 10+ second cooldown, as well as doing below average dps if not buffed via heat signatures, barrage/curtain of fire procs, or tracer lock buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixit Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) So having massive mitigation, heals, and tremendous DMG: that's fine? Every single BH I see bends over and then I know I am dead. I don't think havin capped expertise will make my heal operative any more resilient than it is now; BHs/troopers will still wipe the floor with me. Yea, sure I can interrupt it....once, then Mr. BH simply spams Mc'Happy Missles again 2x while I wait for the CD to come up. As to havin no interrupt, guess what....any CC is an interrupt; so they just freeze you on ice then tee up for the near insta gib and the best part is they have so much mitigation via armors and abilities; they are near unkillable. Use CC break they say, LOL! With the shere amount of CC in this game, CC break is almost always on CD. Something has to give, they should not have massive damage and god mode survivability all in one. It only gets more insane the better the gear. A full champ geared BH/Trooper is....invincible. Edited January 10, 2012 by fixit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanscholo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I havent even pvp'd yet so please indulge me... Tracer missile is a problem in PvE too. The problem is that its easily the hardest hitting, lowest heat generating ability and it makes sense to spam it....its poor design. I dont want to be bending over spamming missiles, it looks stupid and is a total waste of some other really nice abilities...It should be a single use nuke on like a 30 sec timer with other abilities being changed to fill the holes. As it currently stands, it makes very little sense to use other weaker abilities. Problem is, they got themselves into a bind, they cant make some of the other abilities better at the expense of tracer missile because they dont want the class to be kiting gods. The kiting abilities are either weak or cause a lot of heat gen, they want you to stop and cast periodically as well so they make tracer missile harder hitting with a debuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durzaka Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I havent even pvp'd yet so please indulge me... Tracer missile is a problem in PvE too. The problem is that its easily the hardest hitting, lowest heat generating ability and it makes sense to spam it....its poor design. I dont want to be bending over spamming missiles, it looks stupid and is a total waste of some other really nice abilities...It should be a single use nuke on like a 30 sec timer with other abilities being changed to fill the holes. As it currently stands, it makes very little sense to use other weaker abilities. Problem is, they got themselves into a bind, they cant make some of the other abilities better at the expense of tracer missile because they dont want the class to be kiting gods. The kiting abilities are either weak or cause a lot of heat gen, they want you to stop and cast periodically as well so they make tracer missile harder hitting with a debuff. If tracer missile is hitting harder than rail gun, heat seeking missle, or even one tick (crit) of unload, there is something very wrong with your character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokivoid Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Have you played a lvl 50 BH? Against other geared players. I'm in almost full champ gear I've seen operatives kill me So your defense, to point at another class thats known for being just as OP? Ya that totally justifies it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crrypto Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Its the sound effect. It honestly sounds like PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.. That's funny. It actually does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 There's no point asking for something to be nerfed until you have an even, 50v50 playing field. THEN, if one ability is owning without any effort all the time- you start to look for solutions. Many classes have a 'spammable' ability- ie, madness sorcs need to spam force lightning- yet, that is not our main damaging ability- we have to use several other abilities, most with CDs or that are procced off lightning, to do top damage. Far as I can tell, only class that doesn't need to use multiple abilities to build up their damage is the scoundrel's kill in opener abilities- and if that continues with 50 brackets, it'll likely get nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheelin Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 So your defense, to point at another class thats known for being just as OP? Ya that totally justifies it. I like that you didn't even quote the whole sentence let alone the paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheelin Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 So having massive mitigation, heals, and tremendous DMG: that's fine? Every single BH I see bends over and then I know I am dead. I don't think havin capped expertise will make my heal operative any more resilient than it is now; BHs/troopers will still wipe the floor with me. Yea, sure I can interrupt it....once, then Mr. BH simply spams Mc'Happy Missles again 2x while I wait for the CD to come up. As to havin no interrupt, guess what....any CC is an interrupt; so they just freeze you on ice then tee up for the near insta gib and the best part is they have so much mitigation via armors and abilities; they are near unkillable. Use CC break they say, LOL! With the shere amount of CC in this game, CC break is almost always on CD. Something has to give, they should not have massive damage and god mode survivability all in one. It only gets more insane the better the gear. A full champ geared BH/Trooper is....invincible. I am no where near invincible in almost full champ gear marauder, operative, assassins, powertechs, and snipers can all kill me just as fast as I can kill someone sometimes faster. You are a heal operative don't expect to kill anyone 1v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creslan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Get rid of the ranged auto face in PVP and it would be a non issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scratchie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I can't say much for bounty hunters but the way troopers got their full auto ability setup casting wise there's almost no reason to use it in PvP. And that thing is supposed to go hand in hand with grav shots. Edited January 10, 2012 by Scratchie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hadlis Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 People need to stop getting hung up with the fact that mercs are at the top of the DPS charts at the end of a match. It's all splash AOE that very rarely tips the tide in a struggle. Most if not all of it comes From DFA which can be avoided by playing with your EYES OPEN! It just adds up and results in a large number. I have never had anybody whisper me that my amazing dps numbers where what won the match. I play some matches and forget to use DFA and my dps is somewhere in the top middle half...not very remarkable. Interupts us or just run and you will survive as we have no ability to counter either one effectivly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidice Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I complain about all casts,not just tracer, because autoturn is the stupidest thing to ever be in pvp ever.. I think I wore out a keyboard sending complaints about it in beta but I guess the sally facerollers sent more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cegenaus Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 what people have failed to mention is that since tracer has an activation time it makes BH about as mobile as a house. dont want to get hit by it? LoS us, it makes us have to cast it all over again. run out of range, we cannot follow and use tracer at the same time. if we stop to use it we'll get one hit maybe and then youre out of range again. if you can keep us from casting it for 15 seconds then we lose all of our buffs/debuffs and we have to start all over again and at that point none of our other skills will do any damage god mode? thats laughable. if i go up against any SW/SI that has half a brain i get wiped across the floor. we have almost no skills to keep people away from us and since tracer is activated....you guessed it we cant use it on the run. our only ranged slow has an activation so.......we cant use it on the run. the only way we can get away is if electro dart isnt on cd or by using jetboost on a ledge, rocket punch has almost no knockback and you have to aim it to get your target off the ledge. our heal is also activated and doesnt heal for much unless you are geared up. i cant out heal anything so if i get attacked while healing i have to stop and hope i can out dps them which has never happened. it also adds to our heat so if i have to heal from 50% or below health i cant use any abilities besides the auto attack skill until my heat is all gone it would be nice to have instant cast abilities, more knockbacks, a ranged slow that wasnt activated, and an incombat speed burst but we get stuck with tracer. considering the utility of SI and the damage done by IA im waiting for BH to get some buffs to stay competitive. damage is all we have right now, personally id like to see some more utility and make our rotation less dependent on tracer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gluefoot Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 wat. What other single-target spell do Mercs/Commandos use? The only other spell is Unload. Although mine are only level 26 right now. Hmm. High Impact Bolt / Rail shot Heatseaker Missiles / Demo Round Those are the only four single-target dps abilities a Commando/Merc has. All the rest of those have a cooldown. So naturally in a one-on-one fight, we're going to use Grav Round/Tracer Missile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universalchild Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Have you played a lvl 50 BH? Against other geared players. I'm in almost full champ gear I've seen operatives kill me before I can get up from the knockdown. Sorcs that do 550k dmg and 150k healing in one match. My top dmg is 440k in a single warzone and I haven't seen any other bounty hunter go over 360k, I average 300-350k when I have a healer with around 40-50k healing because of medpac. I am no where near nor have I seen anyone else besides sorc at 550k dmg + 150k healing in a match. Yes BH are strong and Yes I do crush lowbies with tracer missiles but I am a geared 50. I don't hit geared 50s as hard so in patch 1.1 the dmg will change a bit. If you just stand there and let me dps you down and you just take it you deserve to die. You shouldn't be able to live through a T1 dps class if you just sit there and take it. Line of sight them, the smallest objects LoS me, poles, huttball pad almost everything just move. Get in their face and interrupt them stun them etc. Don't be bad and you won't get killed as much. People have been trying to tell them this move is not as crazy as they make it out to be. They also think all we do is spam the move...only. I wouldn't even try to counter some of these comments because they will always have a stupid comeback for you. Face it people aren't as good as they thought, talking about we need to learn our class? If they knew there's they wouldn't get hit by such a simple simple move. Edited January 10, 2012 by Universalchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tikreity Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) First people have to have something to complain about whenever they are killed by anyone. The reason people complain about the BH tracer missile spam is because that is the only thing they see them cast when in fact there are several other abilities they use, or at least I do. They just don't see them cast them because they are instant and are normally following at tracer missile. Yes tracer missile is most used but its not the only thing I use 15 other abilities in pvp most of them used in a single fight. 13 if you don't count cc break and medpac. I use heatseeker missiles (31 point arsenal ability) and rail shot to follow up tracer missiles for added burst. Explosive dart, Heatseeker and tracer missile for a big burst. Other abilities i use include my level 50 merc ability that makes my next cast instant, vent heat to manage my heat resource. My damage shield to reduce damage, 3 AoE abilities during aoe fights. A couple heal abilities, my stun and knockback. In fight I use tracer missiles followed by my instant damage abilities for extra burst. I make my next heal instant cast for a quick 3k heal, medpac for 4-5k heal, kolto overload for a small HoT, shield to reduce damage, stun and knockback, and vent heat. I also use unload when it is off cooldown and has its damage boost procced (from talents). I don't always have to use all abilities, sometimes people just fall over from 3 tracer missiles and a heatseeker missile. TLDR: People only see tracer missile being cast so thats what they pick to complain about. please you just fooling yourself, your class has 10% use to alllll abilities and 90% to your missile, its stupid boring and pathatic hope they nerf it and buff some other abilities so that you learn some skills other than click on one bility Edited January 10, 2012 by Tikreity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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