Nerf Operatives/Scoundrels

[Shredbull]

you sound mad. its pretty funny.

 

Take your youmadbro, and trade it in for a real life.

Yes, I'm angry because the forums are being destroyed by kids who are trying to defend their exploiting. Yes, I'm angry because if you have a good opinion about something, you will be laughed at. So take your ''you sound mad'' and use that as a pickup line for girls, mkay? Because I am pretty sure you're very social given the fact you visit forum threads on an mmorpg just to say youmad a few times. That's totally not a waste of time and considered very social. I'm sure you're really cool irl

[Cias]

Take your youmadbro, and trade it in for a real life.

Yes, I'm angry because the forums are being destroyed by kids who are trying to defend their exploiting. Yes, I'm angry because if you have a good opinion about something, you will be laughed at. So take your ''you sound mad'' and use that as a pickup line for girls, mkay? Because I am pretty sure you're very social given the fact you visit forum threads on an mmorpg just to say youmad a few times. That's totally not a waste of time and considered very social. I'm sure you're really cool irl

 

now you sound furious. keep whining though, its hilarious. but, you are the epitome of social prowess good sir, you and your non stop ************ about a class that you dont understand anything about or how to counter. hats off to you <3

Edited January 9, 2012 by Cias

[YpaWinz]

Where are all the good players making nerf threads? Oh wait.

[SG_Swerve]

Our class is only due for a nerf if the devs listen to whiners on the forums rather than sound reasoning. Scoundrel/operative do a lot of damage because they are a DPS class. They take a lot of skill to play and are by no means a win button. Sure I kick a lot of butt on my scoundrel, but I kick a lot of butt on ANY character I play.

 

The only people we take down really easy are the idiots that try to do the WoW melee dance with us and present a ton of free backhits for us in the process. Or the people who ignore they are getting pounded on by us and continue firing at or healing their original target.

 

We can be stunned just like any other class.

 

We can be pulled into obstacles just like any other class. (But we can't pull/push people into obstacles ourselves)

 

We have crappy armor just like any other squishy, so like any other squishy we have to be quick and cunning to stay alive. Just like any other squishy we are very powerful, but only if played well.

 

We can have DOT skills used on us like any other class, and just like any other stealth class they prevent us from going back into stealth long enough to do us any good.

 

If a scoundrel/op jumps you from stealth you turn around and stun them if you are ranged. Then back away while you pound them with fire, and make sure to DOT them so they can't re-restealth. I know for sure gunslingers and and sages can do this and I am 90% commandos can too. If a scoundrel/op jumps you and you are melee class you stop giving them your back, stun and DOT them if you can, and then press them hard with melee.

 

Its not that difficult. The problem is people sit there and go "OMG I'm being killed by a scoundrel/operative!!!" Rather than dealing with it. What you should be doing rather than QQing about how they are OP is learning ways to stop them.

 

No other class is remotely capable of that kinda front end damage FROM STEALTH.

 

Read and comprehend the above sentence before your wall of text answers to justify something which btw...is apparently not broken to you.

 

Also Devs have stated that there isn't going to be a hybrid tax and that all classes should be relatively balanced...which it clearly isnt.

 

So enjoy it while it lasts, Mr WoW Vanilla Rogue...le nerf bat is incoming!!

[Lashkor]

I DO kill from stealth. Unless I haven't had a chance to re-stealth from my last fight, which given I can only re-stealth in combat once a minute is a fair amount unless I am just going for easy kills rather than pushing objectives which is the POINT of PVP in this game. Not getting kills, getting objectives.

 

What I was posting was advise for other classes if they get jumped from stealth. How they can put up a fight rather than just dying horribly as they run around like a blind screaming little girl and then make rage posts on the forums about how OP scoundrels/operatives are.

 

Oh thank you for your oh so clever wisdom and advice. How about you start with the basics:

 

IF YOUR TRINKET IS UP USE IT.

 

IF NOT, ENJOY YOUR RESPAWN.

 

IF YOU GET TRINKET OFF, YOU'RE PROBABLY DEAD ANYWAY.

 

Now it's correct. Just wanted to make sure you had it right. Without trinket, you're dead. No amount of logic, skill, or reaction time is going to save you if your trinket is down and you're opened on out of stealth.

 

If I catch a non-heal specced Op out of stealth, sure I can kill him typically in a 1v1 fight, barring him being horribly overgeared. The only Ops I can't kill at my level are the healing specced ones. They can't kill me either so it turns into an endless game of cat mouse and FRIENDS!

[AndiusTheGreat]

Please, do us a favor with your ''oh this class is hard to play'' and ''oh this class has no survivability'' , because the vids I see, those are real to me, and I see people facerolling others with a button or 5 while critting massively, healing massively, and then stealthing, massively. A burst class should do burst damage, TRUE. But a burst class shouldn't have stealth AND insane healing. I am sure if they removed stealth and the insane openers the class would be balanced perfectly.

 

Show me a video where the person making the video is getting rolled over and over and over. That is the point of PVP videos. You showcase your skill by showing clips of yourself beating up on uber-newbs over and over and over and cut out all the parts where you die.

 

With enough time on my hands I could make a video about level 10 guardians being OP. I'll just play as one for a year then cut out all the clips of me absolutely owning people who have no idea what they are doing and paste it all together into one video about how awesome I am.

 

The only one moaning here is you and the people crying for a nerf. I enjoy a challenge, if they nerf our shoot first ability I will adapt. I simply want some recognition that we are taking on a very difficult role to play and playing it so well people cry about us being OP. You on the other hand will be right back on these forums crying about gunslingers, or sages, or whatever else is ruining your day at the moment.

 

There is only one way to get better at PVP. Learn your abilities. Learn the abilities of what you are up against, and learn how to counter your opponent's playstyle. Until you learn to do this you will always die to any competent player you come up against. The reason you hate scoundrels and operatives so much is because they naturally attract more skilled players, as they are a challenging role to play. (PS. My scoundrel is a healer. I haven't DPSed since Alderaan)

[Aragiel]

im almost full champ geared vanguard, and there is no operative who can hit me for more than 3-4K by a single skill. Even thoose numbers are pretty much not normal and usuall hit is arround 2K.

So in my point of view, the first topic is just a lie and it never happend.

 

Next, i think Operatives / Scoundrels are a bit OP but not because of their BURST dmg which is maybe part of it. They are OP because:

 

- stealth mechanic that doesnt have limit, doesnt have cast time so you can escape pretty much whenewer you want, and combat mechanic which is somehow not perfect or i do not understeand how is possible that when 2 people are fighting 5meters next to me, im leving combat and - able to go in stealth again. So first is to fix combat detection and give some limit to stealthy classes. It is unbelieveble that someone can literaly stay in stealth mode whole scenario.. while this clas should be something like (stealth - burst the target - then a bit without stealth and stealth again)

WARHAMMER online - stealth mechanic - quite good at this point. 30 second was maximum time you can spend in stealth, also cast time was 2 seconds so others were able to interrupt your escape easy mode..

 

- SELFHEAL. ***? and SELFCLEANS. Yes, dont tell me please DOT´s are taking you out of stealth.. if you know what you do, you cleans 2 dots from you first, then hide in stealth and if there is no stealt detector - you escaped.. just so simple. and able to selfheal.. since when BURST DPS classes or any DPS classes have selfheal? thats same for other selhealed DPS of course. What a stupid game against for siths that hit you with lightnings and are able to selfheal or heal each other.. while maintaining dmg.. So this is for operative / scoundrels as well...

 

- Not working imunity - yes, pretty much you have always open windows for any CC and therefore kill. If operative / scoundrell is a burst class i think is fair enough that they can´t stunlock you. They should have their escapes from battels but not that much cc and burst all together. Anyway the main point here is - that there is no imunity or very low imunity. Resolve bar is full only at respawn point.. what a great idea right.. so if there is a kind of CC imunity - then operatives / scoundrells will have little bit harder time and maybe will need to really use their class as burst / stealth / rogue type

 

so counting all together, i my summary is - no need for hard nerfs of skills.. just fix some of the game systems that are anyway affecting all classes. That should be first point - and after it thats not helping, we can think about skill changes. so far - no need

 

(ps - im not playing operative / scoundrell.. sorry guys.. )

[Cias]

 

- SELFHEAL. ***? and SELFCLEANS. Yes, dont tell me please DOT´s are taking you out of stealth.. if you know what you do, you cleans 2 dots from you first, then hide in stealth and if there is no stealt detector - you escaped.. just so simple. and able to selfheal.. since when BURST DPS classes or any DPS classes have selfheal? thats same for other selhealed DPS of course. What a stupid game against for siths that hit you with lightnings and are able to selfheal or heal each other.. while maintaining dmg.. So this is for operative / scoundrels as well...

 

 

you do realize the cast time for operatives heal is 2.5 seconds right? and it really doesnt even heal that much if you dont spec heals. any good player will easily interrupt that.

[YpaWinz]

And to the person who said where are the good players crying for a nerf? I believe I posted my own video saying they are OP

 

I rest my case?

Edited January 12, 2012 by Paralassa
content reply

[AndiusTheGreat]

SELFHEAL. ***? and SELFCLEANS. Yes, dont tell me please DOT´s are taking you out of stealth.. if you know what you do, you cleans 2 dots from you first, then hide in stealth and if there is no stealt detector - you escaped.. just so simple. and able to selfheal.. since when BURST DPS classes or any DPS classes have selfheal? thats same for other selhealed DPS of course. What a stupid game against for siths that hit you with lightnings and are able to selfheal or heal each other.. while maintaining dmg.. So this is for operative / scoundrels as well...

 

I don't quite agree with your other two points but I can agree with this one. 4.5 sec cool down on remove 2 physical/tech effects is pretty crazy. Though I am pretty sure the DOT sages/sorcerers use is a mental effect.

 

I wouldn't be at all opposed to having this ability nerfed and then making one of the traits currently in the healing tree put it back to what it should be, possibly Phych Meds. Its a needed ability for sawbones but not for scrappers.

[Aragiel]

you do realize the cast time for operatives heal is 2.5 seconds right? and it really doesnt even heal that much if you dont spec heals. any good player will easily interrupt that.

 

pretty much clear for me, but still they have it available and in lot of situation it is what can keep them live long enough till next stealth button is active.

of course, they can´t compare to fully speced healers, but thats what im talking about - they should not have access to it at all (and thats all DPS classes not only these two)

[Mothanos]

Cant comment on level 50 Ops but i must admit that my Ops can do 300k damage in 1 warzone at level 12

 

Had alot of fun altough i die rather easy, my burst was insane.

When Bioware give 50's their own bracket and people get full pvp gear we can see what needs to be balanced.

 

Its imposible to balance low level pvp and level 50 pvp so lets have patience and see what the near future brings.

 

So far some classes have insane CC and some classes have insane burst, Iam sure Bioware is monitoring alot of pvp related stuff.

[Cias]

pretty much clear for me, but still they have it available and in lot of situation it is what can keep them live long enough till next stealth button is active.

of course, they can´t compare to fully speced healers, but thats what im talking about - they should not have access to it at all (and thats all DPS classes not only these two)

 

well in that case, tanks should do far less damage than they do now. since you know... they are tanks, walking meatshields.

[Dayshadow]

use your stun break? whats stopping a sorc from rooting/snaring/dotting you to hell while interrupting and stunning you from 30m. i dont see you ************ up a storm about that. or how about that merc spamming tracer from another level? does the operative have anyway of reaching you? does the operative have a sprint/knock back/gap closer? it honestly just sounds like you got ***** by an operative that you dont know how to counter and now you are butt hurt.

 

3 secs.

 

Stun break is meaningless. You still die. Please, stop talking nonsense. You must be a overpowered operative who doesn't want to lose your easy mode. Don't deny it. No way anyone would sit here and lie through their teeth to defend this travesty of PvP otherwise.

 

I don't care how gimped you think operative is without "I WIN" buttons. You cannot 3sec kill people one after the other and consider it a fair trade. You can't say I don't have this so give me an "I WIN" button which makes you better than EVERYONE else. Sorry, but no. You need to be asking for other FAIR skills to buff your class up to the level of others.

 

A sorc can root me, but he can't stop me from fighting back while rooted. That is a "bringing a sword to gunfight" problem (melee needs buff), if any, not a problem with the sorc's arsenal. Everybody snares and DOTs are actually less efficient than direct dmg in TOR (maybe they'll fix that). I can assure you that as overpowered as a lightning spamming madness sorc is, they aren't killing anyone in 3 secs. Try again, EasyMode.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Dayshadow

[G-Seven]

Cant comment on level 50 Ops but i must admit that my Ops can do 300k damage in 1 warzone at level 12

 

Had alot of fun altough i die rather easy, my burst was insane.

When Bioware give 50's their own bracket and people get full pvp gear we can see what needs to be balanced.

 

Its imposible to balance low level pvp and level 50 pvp so lets have patience and see what the near future brings.

 

So far some classes have insane CC and some classes have insane burst, Iam sure Bioware is monitoring alot of pvp related stuff.

 

Screenshot please.

[Dayshadow]

Cant comment on level 50 Ops but i must admit that my Ops can do 300k damage in 1 warzone at level 12

 

Had alot of fun altough i die rather easy, my burst was insane.

When Bioware give 50's their own bracket and people get full pvp gear we can see what needs to be balanced.

 

Its imposible to balance low level pvp and level 50 pvp so lets have patience and see what the near future brings.

 

So far some classes have insane CC and some classes have insane burst, Iam sure Bioware is monitoring alot of pvp related stuff.

 

You play on Rubat Crystal in weekend beta? Where you that little lvl 12 ****er killing my 25 commando in beta in under 4secs? Our whole ops group was bitchin about some lvl 12 killing them. A real WTF moment. At the time I thought the game was bugged and had give this player super dmg. I even made a bug report. Now I see the other ops just hadn't learned how to play.

 

WZs are mini-games. Since levels 10-50 can play it should be balanced for those levels, not just lvl 50. Expertise should be on ALL PvP gear, not just lvl 50. And PvP gear should come in 5 level increments. Not just 20, 40 and 50. The whole point of expertise would be to have PvP gear have inferior stats for PvE, but still do better than PvE gear in PvP. As it is now it's just a bracket maker (i.e. it makes 50's their own bracket). Other than that expertise makes no sense and should be disabled until brackets are in.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Dayshadow

[AndiusTheGreat]

You play on Rubat Crystal in weekend beta? Where you that little lvl 12 ****er killing my 25 commando in beta in under 4secs? Our whole ops group was bitchin about some lvl 12 killing them. A real WTF moment. At the time I thought the game was bugged and had give this player super dmg. I even made a bug report. Now I see the other ops just hadn't learned how to play.

 

WZs are mini-games. Since levels 10-50 can play it should be balanced for those levels, not just lvl 50. Expertise should be on ALL PvP gear, not just lvl 50. And PvP gear should come in 5 level increments. Not just 20, 40 and 50. The whole point of expertise would be to have PvP gear have inferior stats for PvE, but still do better than PvE gear in PvP. As it is now it's just a bracket maker (i.e. it makes 50's their own bracket). Other than that expertise makes no sense and should be disabled until brackets are in.

 

Wow? A level 12? Level 12s don't have shoot first, level 12s don't even have sucker punch. Level 12s have 2 minute cooldowns on disappearing act, level 12s can't remove negative conditions from themselves...

 

That is just ridiculous. That is not a case of them being overpowered. I'm sorry, that is just a case of your whole group being really, really, really, bad or you not telling the full story.

 

Edit:

 

I just found that video in one of the 5000 topics about this subject. Thought it was kind of funny. That is a BOUNTY HUNTER taking out a 47 and a 50 in just a few seconds.

Edited January 9, 2012 by AndiusTheGreat

[Dayshadow]

Wow? A level 12? Level 12s don't have shoot first, level 12s don't even have sucker punch. Level 12s have 2 minute cooldowns on disappearing act, level 12s can't remove negative conditions from themselves...

 

 

So it was a bug? Good!

 

The whole ops group sent bug reports.

[xchimux]

You are hit from stealth and knocked down. You have no time to escape. You cannot kite. Stop talking nonsense. 3secs. You don't get them down to 50% health. You don't get to attack them at all. They could have 1% health and still kill you before you can respond.

 

I repeat: 3secs.

 

 

And a 50 Marauder in PvP gear can't 3 shot me, a lvl 41 commando. They can't even 6 shot me. You sure as hell aren't 3 shotting any 50s as a marauder. You might as well not even step to me as a 50 marauder, even in PvP gear, if you want a easy win. If you are melee you better be a juggernaut with all CC out of cooldown or you will be at most half health before you take me down.

 

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/Swsss/Screenshot_2012-01-07_22_52_19_178331.jpg

 

As shown in the above link Good marauders can hit for up to 7.5k with one hit. Considering the average fresh 50 has roughtly 12k it's pretty safe to say hes going to 2-3 shot that person. Operatives are not the only ones doing it with consumables and RNG on low level undergeared people. Get to 50 and get geared where it balances out or get over it.

[Corran]

all i know is if you nerf baseline operative/scoundrel burst - not the combined-with-godly-consumables burst but just their base talented and geared burst - nothing will stop guarded sorcs/sages. ever.

 

i'm a 50 scoundrel and i dont do anywhere near the damage kuts does per hit. after 15 champion bags i've received two relics. that's it. i can not kill the geared sorcs on our server. add in the constant warping these players do after knocked down (i have a 23ms ping, are they euros on a west coast server abusing latency like in fps games???) it's frustraing to say the least to be melee at all in pvp since the overwhelming majority of cc is on ranged classes.

[Corran]

Wow? A level 12? Level 12s don't have shoot first, level 12s don't even have sucker punch. Level 12s have 2 minute cooldowns on disappearing act, level 12s can't remove negative conditions from themselves...

 

That is just ridiculous. That is not a case of them being overpowered. I'm sorry, that is just a case of your whole group being really, really, really, bad or you not telling the full story.

 

Edit:

 

I just found that video in one of the 5000 topics about this subject. Thought it was kind of funny. That is a BOUNTY HUNTER taking out a 47 and a 50 in just a few seconds.

 

how in the hell...? i have a 50 vanguard and i sure as hell cant do that. at all. all those white numbers popping up from..what??

[Lashkor]

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff435/Swsss/Screenshot_2012-01-07_22_52_19_178331.jpg

 

As shown in the above link Good marauders can hit for up to 7.5k with one hit. Considering the average fresh 50 has roughtly 12k it's pretty safe to say hes going to 2-3 shot that person. Operatives are not the only ones doing it with consumables and RNG on low level undergeared people. Get to 50 and get geared where it balances out or get over it.

 

Those 7.5k hits are on 9 second cooldowns, they're not 3 shotting anyone with it unless you're really terrible. Sure, it's good, but that's the biggest hit Maras get and it's not 'spammable'

[AWorthington]

50 balance sage here in 10 pieces of champ gear.

 

I'm not 3 shotting anyone. I do quite well in pvp (if a scoundrel jumps on me i drop like a sack usually though) but I definitely don't 3 shot anyone.

 

I think the most damage I've seen in a single cast with expertise buff is 3200 from force in balance? TK does more, but it's a 3 second channel and easily interrupted.

 

Bottom line though is that every scoundrel/operative I've spoken to who pvp's a lot at 50 openly admits they are OP and they expect a nerf. Funny to see a few people on here can't admit it.

[Corran]

50 balance sage here in 10 pieces of champ gear.

 

I'm not 3 shotting anyone. I do quite well in pvp (if a scoundrel jumps on me i drop like a sack usually though) but I definitely don't 3 shot anyone.

 

I think the most damage I've seen in a single cast with expertise buff is 3200 from force in balance? TK does more, but it's a 3 second channel and easily interrupted.

 

Bottom line though is that every scoundrel/operative I've spoken to who pvp's a lot at 50 openly admits they are OP and they expect a nerf. Funny to see a few people on here can't admit it.

 

3200 from force in balance? being a 3 target ability that's...ok?

 

3200x3 is what now?

[Vyeth]

Lol hard to play, sorry that medal goes to Maras and Sents. Your class needs to press 4 buttons to be effective in PvP mine uses 20+.

 

Hard to play.

 

Ha.

 

Interesting.. Lets all use our own point of views to formulate an "educated" guess about the difficulty as someone else's class choice..

 

MMORPG's..

 

Hard to play.

 

Ha.