Can someone explain to me when Devs decided commendation gear should be Best in slot

[Jedi_Wannabe]

Well, if I wanted to raid grind i'd just go back to WoW. Doing the same Operation every week for three months waiting for the next Operation to come along with better gear, doesn't sound like a viable game play strategy for a story focused MMORPG.

[deserttfoxx]

nothing, as long as content isn't catered to them that it leaves out the majority of the player base because the majority can't play the schedule that the hardcores can.

 

So nothing should cater to the hardcore.. not even raids which were originally designed for the hardcore?

 

Because that is where we are at now, not a single piece of content in swtor is hardcore, or tuned for the hardcore.

[deserttfoxx]

Well, if I wanted to raid grind i'd just go back to WoW. Doing the same Operation every week for three months waiting for the next Operation to come along with better gear, doesn't sound like a viable game play strategy for a story focused MMORPG.

 

If you actually did EV you wouldnt be using this story nonsense. There is no story in EV, you drop in and then you start killing trash mobs.

[deserttfoxx]

Sounds like to me they catered everything to the casual player. Good on Bioware, they did the right thing. The hardcores can go to the several other games that cater to their style, let the casuals have this game.

 

You think WoW is rolling on 8 years because of casuals?

[Wolfeisberg]

So nothing should cater to the hardcore.. not even raids which were originally designed for the hardcore?

 

Because that is where we are at now, not a single piece of content in swtor is hardcore, or tuned for the hardcore.

 

Sure, they can make an extra hard version of an operation, and the reward would be a title that the hardcores can wear around to show their accomplishment, maybe a different colored version of gear from a hardcore version as compared to the non hardcore version, even throw in a few extra stat points into the gear. Just as long as all content can be completed in some form in a casual play style. Thats if Bioware really wants to do that, or see any need to cater anything for the hardcores.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

If you actually did EV you wouldnt be using this story nonsense. There is no story in EV, you drop in and then you start killing trash mobs.

 

I dare you to make less sense.

[Wolfeisberg]

You think WoW is rolling on 8 years because of casuals?

 

 

umm , yeah. WoW got where it is at because it catered to the casuals, and I doubt they would not have gotten as many subscriptions if the kept to their vanilla style end game. FInd it interesting that WoW lost 2 million subscriptions since Cataclysm launched, which happens to be when they made end game more towards the hardcore again, as compared to the casual nature of end game of Wrath of the lich King. Hardcores like to think they carried WoW, but they didn't, it was the casual nature of WoW that carried WoW.

[Genesizs]

Agree pvp gear should be nerfed big time , ..

 

specialy becouse i'm not a big pvp'er i feel left out now

[deserttfoxx]

Sure, they can make an extra hard version of an operation, and the reward would be a title that the hardcores can wear around to show their accomplishment, maybe a different colored version of gear from a hardcore version as compared to the non hardcore version, even throw in a few extra stat points into the gear. Just as long as all content can be completed in some form in a casual play style. Thats if Bioware really wants to do that, or see any need to cater anything for the hardcores.

 

Im sorry, i thought hard mode was supposed to be hard, didnt realize there should be a extra hard mode for the hardcore.

 

casuals shoudl be able to finish all content, i dont understand what stops casual players from doing hard modes, they arent hard in their current state. what stops them from doing nightmare mode? You can pug it, especially in its current state.

 

I dont understand what a casual player is exactly, they are supposed to be able to do everything with zero effort, even get the best in slot gear without trying, can we just give these guys max level toons already and be done with them, clearly they dont want to actually play the game.

 

Im a firm believer in being able to pug everything, and the only thing that hinders pugs are not difficult encounters but group sizes, that is why i was always against 40 man raids, even 25 and 20 man raids, the 8 man raid size is perfect, even casuals can find 7 randoms. That doesnt mean you should be able to sleep through all the content, then walk out with the best gear. As a player with any sort of pride you should want to feel like you earned your gear.

 

Go do EV, do that ridiculously easy event where you have to match 4 symbols, and you get 6 epic pieces and tell me you feel like you earned that loot when you are done.

[deserttfoxx]

umm , yeah. WoW got where it is at because it catered to the casuals, and I doubt they would not have gotten as many subscriptions if the kept to their vanilla style end game. FInd it interesting that WoW lost 2 million subscriptions since Cataclysm launched, which happens to be when they made end game more towards the hardcore again, as compared to the casual nature of end game of Wrath of the lich King. Hardcores like to think they carried WoW, but they didn't, it was the casual nature of WoW that carried WoW.

 

WoW started off hardcore, it made changes over the span of 8 years but WoW started hardcore, you never hit max level in the span of 3 days on WoW at launch, and if you think that, you clearly didn tplay WoW at launch.

 

WoW launched using everquest as the paradigm, everquest was about 40 man raids and grind.

 

its casual now, but that was a transition over the last 2 years, not the entire WoW period.

[DecimaPoiuytr]

I never understood the point of playing a game for sole reason of obtaining gear.

 

Competition, I understand.

Story, I understand.

Team work, I understand.

Character development, I understand.

 

Playing the game only for what drops in it, I do not understand. I can't even explain why I do not understand it. It just feels so crude.

 

People want to feel character progession.

 

The way you feel character progression is by getting new gear which makes your character harder to kill, hit harder, etc. than other characters. Then you can go into a warzone and dominate everyone and feel good for spending the time to get that gear, until a new set comes out. Or, you go into an op and double the damage of the next guy and feel good for spending the time to get the gear to do it.

 

It's not hard to understand, it is character development and competition which you listed. It is also team work when you consider that if they make content hard you need to be doubling the damage of the average bloke or you can't win.

 

Nothing wrong with the loot progression model, and it's easier to keep people interested by adding tiers of loot than it is by adding new storyline content. From a money and a development standpoint.

[deserttfoxx]

I dare you to make less sense.

 

What dont you understand, you get the quest to goto EV to kill the infernal one, then you kill lots of trash mobs until you get to him.

 

There are no story events in Eternity vault, unless you count Soa rant when you first engage him. Its not black talon/esseles.

[TheSwamper]

Probably because gear grinding is a tired, out dated way to maintain subscriber numbers. It's also completely ignorant to only supply great gear to hardcore raiders as those people are a minority and won't sustain a game in the long run.

 

That kind of min/maxing and mathematical simplification is what is wrong with this kind of end game. And just because people don't raid doesnt mean they don't deserve a challenge and the ability to meet it. They should be about community building and game content and non raiders are in no way and should not in anyway be treated as inferior.

 

I'm quite enjoying the way that Bioware has challenged a lot of assumed hierarchy in MMO gaming; raiders, a tiny minority of the playerbase, have been self-entitled for long enough. Either play the raids for the challenge, and wear the armour because you like it, or don't. The last thing we need is devs stripping art assets away from crafted or commendation gear so that you lot can feel all "exclusive" .

 

 

All of the above.

 

 

What will you do after you get everything you want, will you stick around in town, repeating content for the story? Maybe dance in the cantina, tell me honestly what will keep you here in 3 months.

 

Once I finally finish one character, I've got 7 more stories to play through!

 

I like story, and I like progression, and the pinnacle of progression should not be exclusive to the hardest raid content.

[deserttfoxx]

All of the above.

 

 

 

 

Once I finally finish one character, I've got 7 more stories to play through!

 

I like story, and I like progression, and the pinnacle of progression should not be exclusive to the hardest raid content.

 

re-read my thread, then quote the section where i said that.

 

My argument isnt about only having exclusive hardcore loot, my problem is all loot is trivial. Nothing is unique to raids, nothing is challenging, and the best gear in the game is pretty much given away.

 

You noticed the timeframe i used was 3 months right? Because that is how long it will take you to do all 8 stories.

[Wolfeisberg]

WoW started off hardcore, it made changes over the span of 8 years but WoW started hardcore, you never hit max level in the span of 3 days on WoW at launch, and if you think that, you clearly didn tplay WoW at launch.

 

WoW launched using everquest as the paradigm, everquest was about 40 man raids and grind.

 

its casual now, but that was a transition over the last 2 years, not the entire WoW period.

 

It was a transition they were making since before TBC released. Remember Dungeon Sets 1 and 2? They did a little bit better with the badges from doing heroics, and creating two 10 man raids. Then in Wrath, which is where they peaked in subscriptions, is where they went all out and made end game casual heaven.

 

I can understand things to be a challenge, I am all for that, but not something that takes a very long time to get through. In WoW, Karazhan had way to many trash mobs, they should have cut that down by a half at the very least. As far as I am concerned a raid should not take more then 1 to 1.5 hours from start to finish when you know what you are doing. Raids shouldn't have trash mobs re-spawning after a while, once they are killed they are killed for good, till the raid resets for the week.

[Jamus_Divinus]

WoW started off hardcore, it made changes over the span of 8 years but WoW started hardcore, you never hit max level in the span of 3 days on WoW at launch, and if you think that, you clearly didn tplay WoW at launch.

 

WoW launched using everquest as the paradigm, everquest was about 40 man raids and grind.

 

its casual now, but that was a transition over the last 2 years, not the entire WoW period.

 

I see what you're saying mate but WoW hit 5mil subs on it's 1yr anniversary. You are honestly saying the majority of those 5mil subs were hardcore players?

 

WoW didn't grow so fast because hardcore players whispered to each other to try the game out. It grew because of the casual playerbase getting in on the act. Casuals outnumber the hardcore by a huge margin (hence why we have the definition 'casual' and 'hardcore' to differentiate between the 2).

 

Hardcore members contributed very lilttle to the overall sub numbers.

 

Check every review mate from 2004...WoW was considered by the whole planet as 'easily accessible'. 6 yr olds were playing it (see youtube vids lol).

 

P.S. I want more hardcore gameplay in TOR btw, 100% casual and 0% hardcore makes a game boring. 60/40 or 70/30 will do

[Wolfeisberg]

 

You noticed the timeframe i used was 3 months right? Because that is how long it will take you to do all 8 stories.

 

Maybe with your 3 hours a sleep and playing hardcore it would take 3 months to get through all 8 stories. For me, I would be lucky to get through all 8 stories in less then 1 year. I have been playing since December 15th, and my character is only level 19 with about 48 hours played time.

[TheSwamper]

So nothing should cater to the hardcore.. not even raids which were originally designed for the hardcore?

 

BIS loot should not be exclusive to the hardcore. That's Wow-style, and thankfully it doesn't exist here.

 

Although, I'd be perfectly fine with having better-looking gear exclusive to them.

[ghard]

I don't understand any of the loot systems now I preferred neocron were the best weapons and armour dropped in parts that were unlabeled till you researched them.

 

I think crafting should always be part of the end game loot system why? You ask well I use to play MMOS as a crafter nowadays you can't there is no crafting class and hats fine everyone can craft but everyone crafts the same rubbish bosses drop the same loot everything is the same.

 

I want to be able to spend some time and money making my stuff I craft better than the guy who crafts it in a few seconds and I want it to cost me more and have a chance to fail why because the systems now are boring.

 

Oh and when I get it right I want to sell it and I mean sell it not chuck it on some random auction house/ galactic market that's fine for stuff that was crafted quick. I want to sell full sets of of crafted armour or weapon sets I want to have a reason for raid guys to come looking for me with there loot from raids.

 

I want to engage with people I want to socialise barter argue and haggle.

 

For I play MMOs were people are the game.

[KithPine]

Okay from a psychology and brain endorphin equation a purple piece of gear on a 1/100 loot table drop chance competing for that slot with 8 other items for the other classes will probably win, it will keep the people pulling their slot machine levers for much much longer. Yet from a healthy game model the token system is better.

 

What happens is all the slot machine pullers are felling left out, they don't like the token system, they don't get that rush when their 1/100 drop happens. When all the people in the run gear out at the same time instead of going in for the hundredth time because bob's boots haven't dropped yet they feel cheated. Also it robs from them their sens of worth because they got their piece and Timmy doesn't. That is why posts like this happen.

 

I think having 1 BIS piece competing with 4-9 other pieces of gear at that tier is the problem. There should be your token set, your crafted set, and your slot machine set all with the same stats but different ascetics, and this should be for each tier. That way everyone can peruses the system they want without being forced to do something they don't want. Won't happen since that would be 3 times the work and at the end of the day, 90% of the people will pick the quickest rout to the top, but this is my thought on the process.

[Keremal]

+no target of target...++++++

 

alt+T = target of target

[deserttfoxx]

BIS loot should not be exclusive to the hardcore. That's Wow-style, and thankfully it doesn't exist here.

 

Although, I'd be perfectly fine with having better-looking gear exclusive to them.

 

Quote where i said exclusive, i said it should be exclusive to the raid. As in the instance, as in you should have to go into Eternity vault to get gear unique to eternity vault.

 

The rakata set is crafted, bought with daily tokens and gained through ops, its not exclusive and it shouldnt be, but it also shouldnt be the best in slot. Why raid when i can get all that gear without entering the raid. The raid should have gear that drops that is only found in the raid that makes you want to do a raid. That was the whole point of this thread.

 

Its not about making anything unobtainable to anyone else.

[Vandrago]

Firstly: Game Mechanics should never be sacrificed for "Story".

 

Secondly, OP is correct. Gear system is a complete joke.

 

PvP Gear takes far less time to gather than PvE gear and is better than drops from Hardmode Flashpoints, making them completely worthless (having done them while levelling, the story is of no interest, not to mention their horrific buggyness).

 

This.

[KithPine]

Why raid when i can get all that gear without entering the raid.

 

If the game has to force people to raid by locking away all the best gear, then maybe it is raiding that is broken.

 

If people are not raiding because they enjoy pushing themselves.

If people are not raiding because it means something to them on a personal level.

If people are not raiding because raiding is fun.

Then maybe games developers shouldn't be wasting so many resources on it.

 

Honestly when I first started raiding in MMOs it felt so much like it was the pet idea of a one or two developers, the desire to make sure people couldn't just stomp all over their carefully constructed bad guys, but they had to make sure that people still faced their superbads and justify their development costs, so they put the epics and fat loots behind them to make sure more then a small handful of people would give it a go. As time progressed this idea of locking the best stuff behind raids became the standard and when WoW became big all MMO developers got saddled with this paradigm.

[Jandi]

Long post incoming, skip to the end if you can't be bothered to read it.

 

I find it funny that people always need to get into this silly casual vs hardcore ********. The fact is that those that you vilify as "hardcore" are the ones who run the server economies and guilds, and your pug raids.

 

The other thing is that you do not need to invest more than a few hours once or twice a week to clear raids, being bad and incompetent at a game does not make you casual, it makes you bad and incompetent. Playing 16h/day does not make you hardcore, it makes you a no-lifer, which I am and have 0 issues admitting. Being "hardcore" means you actually know exactly what you're doing, when to do it and why by making the effort to know your class and the content you are doing, not only that but understanding your class and the content you're doing.

 

If you cannot put in the few hours it takes to clear everything then MMO's simply aren't for you. A game like this *must* have content that is enjoyable to those of us that enjoy a challenge and enjoy raiding for a few hours a night, do you know why? Because, as I said earlier, people like me form the core of the playerbase, not the majority, but the core. This game is still new and I'd bet that they will tweak the content difficulty as they get stats on how many people clear what and in what time, they monitor everything everyone does in-game, you know, and make adjustments based on that, not forum whining.

 

The current EV operation is easy to the point of trivial, the only issue with it, apart from the many bugs, is that only half the encounters need 2 tanks, even on higher difficulties, this is bad designing. Either make it so all the bosses need 2 tanks or only 1, not half and half.

 

People on my server were pugging it on normal a few days after the official launch date, that's too easy, that's like Naxx in wotlk where you could clear every boss on 1st try as soon as you had enough people at level cap, no other requirements were needed. We cleared it in leveling gear and oneshot everything. Yes, we were all experienced raiders but still, that's just terrible design. Those who prefer easymode were happy though, but the rest of us got real bored real fast and then what happened? People started to quit and guilds started to fall apart and then what happened? Those "casuals" had no guilds to go there with.

 

Short version, stop this pointless arguing and play the way you can and want to and give them time to adjust the content difficulty.

 

EDIT: If you don't want to raid then you have 0 use for the best gear, either; other than to flex your e-peen. That is a ****** reason to ruin a game for others. Stop being selfish and entitled.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Jandi