Space Combat in The Old Republic (continued from pre launch)

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

I'd like some EVE-type mining operations and discovering unexplored areas in space too!

[MORTTUUM]

If there is going to be a change to space combat, it will happen with an expansion, not a patch.

 

That would be worthwhile.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

To everyone missing real space combat: Two days ago there was a free fangame released which was 10 years in development: Wing Commander Saga.

It´s single player, multiplayer comes with a patch, but... It´s really awesome, I dusted off my trusty Microsoft Forcefeedback Sidewinder II and hell.. cold shivers of excitement during the first five missions, almost feels like good old X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, except it´s set in the Wing Commander universe. There are some quirks in the Menu of the game, but the fighting is great, there is lot of radio chatter going on, different weapons and lot of keycommands you can map to your joystick - the TOR railmissions do not even come close to a classic joystick flight sim. Oh the joy... :)

[Makagoto]

space combat is the very thing that defines Star Wars and was also the one thing that attracted me the most in the those movies. That part has so much potential and is being totally ignored. Shame on you BW!

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

space combat is the very thing that defines Star Wars and was also the one thing that attracted me the most in the those movies. That part has so much potential and is being totally ignored. Shame on you BW!

 

Perhaps I should be grateful to BW, now I appreciate and play 5-10 year old games again like Rebel Strike (gamecube) and Battlefront 2. Also the brandnew Wing Commander Saga fangame. TOR got me in the mood for Star Wars/Space Combat games again, but I'm getting my recent space game desire satisfied somewhere else... I feel dirty

Edited March 24, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[vandana_]

space combat is the very thing that defines Star Wars and was also the one thing that attracted me the most in the those movies. That part has so much potential and is being totally ignored. Shame on you BW!

 

Indeed. The abomination that is rail shooter is complete ignorance.

[shepardcomander]

space combat is the very thing that defines Star Wars and was also the one thing that attracted me the most in the those movies. That part has so much potential and is being totally ignored. Shame on you BW!

 

I agree, even more frightening is thinking about the fail rails as a symptom then determining underlying causes as to why BiowEAr chose to disregard such an important part of the IP.

[Goretzu]

To everyone missing real space combat: Two days ago there was a free fangame released which was 10 years in development: Wing Commander Saga.

It´s single player, multiplayer comes with a patch, but... It´s really awesome, I dusted off my trusty Microsoft Forcefeedback Sidewinder II and hell.. cold shivers of excitement during the first five missions, almost feels like good old X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, except it´s set in the Wing Commander universe. There are some quirks in the Menu of the game, but the fighting is great, there is lot of radio chatter going on, different weapons and lot of keycommands you can map to your joystick - the TOR railmissions do not even come close to a classic joystick flight sim. Oh the joy... :)

 

 

That looks good.

 

 

 

Indeed. The abomination that is rail shooter is complete ignorance.

 

 

Well credit where credit is due, it is a pretty decent rail shooter as far as rail shooter go (it's just they largely went in the 1990's).

 

The problem is it would work ok in a single player game where you only played each mission through a handful of times.

 

The problem with it in a MMORPG and especially tying it to quests, dailys and space commendations (as they have), people end up having to grind it playing the same missions time and time and time and time gain......... and it is a terrible and horrific thing to grind.

 

Where as a more free form space combat game would push the repetativness off for a bit/lot longer depending on how good it was.

 

An MMORPG needs something more, it's like having the ground character based bit of an MMORPG as constrained as an old style corridor FPS.

[Vahzl]

I love the space combat. It's Rogue Squadron but with prettier graphics. I hope it gets expanded on, imagine a space combat raid group, or a PvP arena. It has the potential to be epic, and hope it isn't just swept aside as something they don't continue to develop.

 

Snapping it off the rails would make it even more awesome too.

 

For all the Waaaambulance patients out there, Star Wars shooters are traditionally on rails, there are a few exceptions to this, but the main Rogue Squadron series was stuck on rails too and it was a huge smash hit.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Vahzl

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

I love the space combat. It's Rogue Squadron but with prettier graphics. .....

 

....Star Wars shooters are traditionally on rails, there are a few exceptions to this, but the main Rogue Squadron series was stuck on rails too and it was a huge smash hit.

 

Are you kidding me?

Traditionally on rails? A few exceptions?

Rogue Squadron on rails?

 

None of the three Rogue Squadron titles were on rails.

 

The only "on rails" titles were

and those were more of an "interactive movie" with live video cutscenes and "Aunt Sally" fairground stall type "missions". Pretty lame actually and it mostly got bad reviews. (4.9/10 average)

 

So I researched some of the SW museum games which were not on rails:

 

Rogue Squadron III: Rebel Strike

SW Battlefront

SW Battlefront II

Star Wars Starfighter I

 

 

Yeah, on rails space combat totally rules... NOT.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[vandana_]

I love the space combat.

There is no space in current space combat.

[Goretzu]

I love the space combat. It's Rogue Squadron but with prettier graphics. I hope it gets expanded on, imagine a space combat raid group, or a PvP arena. It has the potential to be epic, and hope it isn't just swept aside as something they don't continue to develop.

 

How on earth can you have on rails PvP?

 

Really I can't get me head around that.

 

Snapping it off the rails would make it even more awesome too.

 

It would be a huge improvement, monsterously huge.

 

For all the Waaaambulance patients out there, Star Wars shooters are traditionally on rails, there are a few exceptions to this, but the main Rogue Squadron series was stuck on rails too and it was a huge smash hit.

 

What? Do you know how many SW space game there have been? And do you know how many have been on rails?

 

Never mind that the greats SW space combat games have deffinately been non-railed ones.

[Tarka]

How on earth can you have on rails PvP?

 

Really I can't get me head around that.

 

It would be a huge improvement, monsterously huge.

 

The only way is what I refer to as "space jousting". Which in my opinion is an awful concept for an MMO.

 

What? Do you know how many SW space game there have been? And do you know how many have been on rails?

 

Never mind that the greats SW space combat games have deffinately been non-railed ones.

 

Unfortunatley, some people cannot see the proverbial wood for the trees.

[Tarka]

I love the space combat. It's Rogue Squadron but with prettier graphics. I hope it gets expanded on, imagine a space combat raid group, or a PvP arena. It has the potential to be epic, and hope it isn't just swept aside as something they don't continue to develop.

 

? No.

Rebel Assault? Yes.

 

Notice how, just like SWTOR's space combat, Rebel Assault allows for only a small deviation from an already set course. The ship cannot veer off from that main course. Now, Rogue Squadron differs to the above, the player controls the direction in which the ship flies. Therefore, SWTOR's space combat has very little similarity to Rogue Squadron in terms of control.

 

Comparing the two differences in gameplay is like comparing the differences between the "House of the Dead" control system with that of "Call Of Duty". The latter granting "full control" over what the avatar does, when it does it, and how it does it. The former only allows for partial control. Removing the possibility of radically changing tactics "on the fly".

 

And it's that lack of allowing for "dynamic elements" that is one of the biggest criticisms of SWTOR.

 

Snapping it off the rails would make it even more awesome too.

 

That one design decision alters the entire situation. Unfortunately the devs refuse to discuss such possibilities.

 

For all the Waaaambulance patients out there, Star Wars shooters are traditionally on rails, there are a few exceptions to this, but the main Rogue Squadron series was stuck on rails too and it was a huge smash hit.

 

Immature comments aside. You are most definately wrong here.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tarka

[Goretzu]

The only way is what I refer to as "space jousting". Which in my opinion is an awful concept for an MMO.

 

Unfortunatley, some people cannot see the proverbial wood for the trees.

 

 

Yeah it would be terrible, unload everything you can on one pass then twiddle your thumbs as it went around for another.

[shepardcomander]

How on earth can you have on rails PvP?

 

Really I can't get me head around that.

 

 

Easy, instead of lag killing you, lag actually lets you win.

 

Player A and B start out sliding down the same tunnel. Player B lags for a sec and ends up behind player A, perfect firing position. Person B wins.

 

Super duper fun for all, no?

Edited March 26, 2012 by shepardcomander

[Galius]

I love the space combat. It's Rogue Squadron but with prettier graphics. I hope it gets expanded on, imagine a space combat raid group, or a PvP arena. It has the potential to be epic, and hope it isn't just swept aside as something they don't continue to develop.

 

Snapping it off the rails would make it even more awesome too.

 

For all the Waaaambulance patients out there, Star Wars shooters are traditionally on rails, there are a few exceptions to this, but the main Rogue Squadron series was stuck on rails too and it was a huge smash hit.

 

I know I gave up and all but this... this had to be replied to.

 

It has no gameplay similarity to Rogue Squadron. Period.

 

You can't raid or PvP on rails.

 

If by "swept aside" you mean change the format to something good then I hope it IS swept aside.

 

Taking it off rails is the ONLY way it will be better. No other change could be made to make it better. You can make it faster... you can make it have more things to shoot at... but "better" is none of those.

 

And not only did you get the title of the game wrong (Rebel Assault was what you were looking for) but you are also factually wrong. As other posters have already shown (And better than I ever could) there are a plethora of NON rail shooters with the Star Wars IP and they have all done better than rail shooter variants.

 

But of course it's easier to just insult those you THINK are dumber than you even when you show a complete lack of understanding of the material you are talking about.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

 

You can't raid or PvP on rails.

 

The only reasonable gameplay style on-rails would be this:

 

I´m thinking about a Space Mission Co-OP or PvP Flashpoint live event.

 

- You have a group of 4-8 players. Perhaps even more, 16+

 

- Sirenes go off on the fleet (exactly same time on both Factions -- voiceover: "Emergency - all officers on duty to flight deck X.Y. for mission X.Y." You are starting out from the fleet with your group and enter a big, walkable destroyer or other flagship. Some mission briefing officer tells you on board what the situation is and that you are heading for some planet surface mission.

 

- Suddenly - the ship gets attacked out of nowhere.. you run to the windows and see a giant fleet just came out of hyperspace.

 

- Some of the NPC crewmembers die from explosions (scripted event)- now YOU and the group need to head to the turrets and unleash the imperial firepower on the attackers, the other faction. The other fregate/destroyer is manned with real players too.

 

- You succeed and group enters the destroyer of the other faction to finish them off in PvP fight.

 

- Go back with the other faction as prisoners, have a quick beer in the ship´s cantina and watch some Huttball Live

 

- The ship continues to the planet surface, you get out and do a ground mission which is the second part of the flashpoint.

 

THE END.

 

The only kind of "fun" rail mission I can imagine. Everything else should be off rails in a free navigable universe.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Goretzu]

Easy, instead of lag killing you, lag actually lets you win.

 

Player A and B start out sliding down the same tunnel. Player B lags for a sec and ends up behind player A, perfect firing position. Person B wins.

 

Super duper fun for all, no?

 

 

Don't make suggestions like that, they may come true.

[Aethusa]

I respect you OP.

What is your real life job ?

Edited March 26, 2012 by Aethusa

[Vahzl]

I know I gave up and all but this... this had to be replied to.

 

It has no gameplay similarity to Rogue Squadron. Period.

 

You can't raid or PvP on rails.

 

If by "swept aside" you mean change the format to something good then I hope it IS swept aside.

 

Taking it off rails is the ONLY way it will be better. No other change could be made to make it better. You can make it faster... you can make it have more things to shoot at... but "better" is none of those.

 

And not only did you get the title of the game wrong (Rebel Assault was what you were looking for) but you are also factually wrong. As other posters have already shown (And better than I ever could) there are a plethora of NON rail shooters with the Star Wars IP and they have all done better than rail shooter variants.

 

But of course it's easier to just insult those you THINK are dumber than you even when you show a complete lack of understanding of the material you are talking about.

I never get why being positive is met with such venom. Yes I got the name of the game wrong (it's literally been decades since I played them), and I deeply apologise your majesty for making such a grievous error, but all I see from you is whining without any constructive feedback.

 

Rail shooters (Star Fox, Rebel Assualt etc) have always been a fun choice of game for me, I like them, and remember that the space combat is not the main focus of SWTOR, it's a side distraction to do while waiting for other stuff (like PvP queues).

 

I hope in the future it gets expanded on, with more missions, and a raid encounter or 2, along with a PvP arena, but for the PvP aspect to work, it would need to be off the rails, as you cannot rail shooter against other players, without some very clever scripting, and that wouldn't be any fun imho.

 

TL;DR: The space combat has a lot of potential and works well as a short distraction right now, it's fun, and good for short bursts of pew pew, however in the future I hope it gets a bit more care and attention. Guaranteed when it gets pulled off the rails, the people who want it on the rails will be just as vocal. I don't care how it works, as long as it stays fun.

 

Heck it's a video game, stop complaining and just play it, it's fun when you stop over analysing everything.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

and remember that the space combat is not the main focus of SWTOR, it's a side distraction to do while waiting for other stuff (like PvP queues).

 

and this is the problem core, because it should be much more than a "distraction".

 

So BW, please put the "Stars" back in "Star Wars".

[Tarka]

I never get why being positive is met with such venom. Yes I got the name of the game wrong (it's literally been decades since I played them), and I deeply apologise your majesty for making such a grievous error, but all I see from you is whining without any constructive feedback.

 

Rail shooters (Star Fox, Rebel Assualt etc) have always been a fun choice of game for me, I like them, and remember that the space combat is not the main focus of SWTOR, it's a side distraction to do while waiting for other stuff (like PvP queues).

 

I hope in the future it gets expanded on, with more missions, and a raid encounter or 2, along with a PvP arena, but for the PvP aspect to work, it would need to be off the rails, as you cannot rail shooter against other players, without some very clever scripting, and that wouldn't be any fun imho.

 

TL;DR: The space combat has a lot of potential and works well as a short distraction right now, it's fun, and good for short bursts of pew pew, however in the future I hope it gets a bit more care and attention. Guaranteed when it gets pulled off the rails, the people who want it on the rails will be just as vocal. I don't care how it works, as long as it stays fun.

 

Heck it's a video game, stop complaining and just play it, it's fun when you stop over analysing everything.

 

Lol. Sorry, but cannot with any degree of legitimacy try to play the "victim" card, when they're receiving a backlash from posting such a deliberately inflammatory remark as "For all the Waaaambulance patients out there...".

Edited March 26, 2012 by Tarka

[Azzras]

Full Control Space Combat, please.

[dazednconfuzed]

Guaranteed when it gets pulled off the rails, the people who want it on the rails will be just as vocal. I don't care how it works, as long as it stays fun.

 

Undoubtedly they will, which is why I suggest moving the rails onto something that suits being on rails, podracing, for example, and let space be, well, spacious. The only time someone should have their movement restricted in space combat is when their ship is physically inside something, a la the Death Star.