Cover stealth.

[Kiphere]

This is a no brainer imo but it should be made real. Please, if you like this idea, keep the thread alive and maybe it'll get some attention.

 

Snipers IRL tend to be stealthy lil guys, they make cover for themselves, hide, and if they're good are invisible to the enemy until they show themselves to take the shot. Snipers in game... well, cover sort of sucks. It does hvae it's benefits and I like the mechanic to be honest but it needs help. I think at some level (not immediately) maybe 30+ when you go into cover you should be invisible. When you pop out to shoot your 'cover' stops working so you're visible, if you're inactive in cover you go back invisible.

 

I think cover should basically be an immobile stealth and when you're in action (things that make you stand up out of cover like charging a snipe/ambush) then you should be visible.

 

I basically want ot be able to run to my spot and 'hide' there until I'm ready to unleash, or drop a shot and immediatly pop back into 'cover' while the enemy looks around for me. If they see me setting up the shot and then see me disappear they know where I am so they know where to go to get me.

 

As an advanced version of it, maybe have a talent in one of the trees that gives you 2-3 seconds of stealthed movement when you leave cover with a "effect cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds" tag on it. This would give you the ability to pop a shot and go back into cover, if you see the baddie running for you, you can run off and maybe find a natural cover to hide behind and setup your enxt shot.

 

Again, anytime you're 'standing' in cover you'd be visible. The stealth component would only be in effect while actively "In cover" and not doing anything.

 

I think this would boost the cover mechanic enough that most peoples 'issues' with it would go away and it'd give snipers a nice little 'perk' and boost to survivability.

 

For the partner class gunslinger... well, I don't see it as making as much sense and I don't know how much differentiation they want between partner classes but maybe a different mechanic for gunslinger could be provided or maybe they could just get the same ability. I personally don't care. I'm a sniper

[Kyris_Xiandrii]

I think 'Cover' in this game should work like the hunter skill 'Camouflage' in WoW, in the sense that while you are in cover you should fade away after 6 seconds of not attacking, and if you move, charge a skill, buff or attack, then you would become revealed. After 6 seconds of not moving or doing anything, then you fade away again

[Auxili]

Just make it so, when you cover behind natural cover out of combat, you fade into stealth after a few seconds.

[Scarce]

I think 'Cover' in this game should work like the hunter skill 'Camouflage' in WoW, in the sense that while you are in cover you should fade away after 6 seconds of not attacking, and if you move, charge a skill, buff or attack, then you would become revealed. After 6 seconds of not moving or doing anything, then you fade away again

 

 

 

Just make it so, when you cover behind natural cover out of combat, you fade into stealth after a few seconds.

 

 

 

Those two ideas combined sound quite good to me.

[SandTrout]

I actually mentioned this idea to some friend earlier today. I think that it would be a great way to give the Sniper more utility in PvP without necessarily making us overpowered.

 

There are already a number of our abilities that require us to be in cover to utilize, which is not a restriction for similar abilities for other classes (cover burst, entrench).

 

Scoundrels might complain, but you can see a stealthed person within a certain range in any case, so it will simply make finding their prey more difficult, but once the do, they can still just back out of range and re-approach if necessary. If the sniper realizes that he's been spotted and breaks cover, then he loses his stealth and all the other stacked benefits that he might have arranged.

[JarenVestrit]

I think this is a good idea. It allows us to actually perform like snipers, and get the first shot off.

 

Of course, the other classes will complain about this, even though it would break after the first shot.

Edited January 8, 2012 by JarenVestrit

[Shanseala]

Basically... Akali from League of Legends?

 

She puts down an immovable spot for stealth. While in that spot, she is stealthed while not doing anything, and appears when she attacks. That stealth does have a medium long CD and a pretty short duration though.

 

Either way. I could go for that. It would probably be hard to balance in PVP, and might be op for PVE for getting out of combat and escaping wipes all the time. But its a thought

[Mamifx]

Just make it so, when you cover behind natural cover out of combat, you fade into stealth after a few seconds.

 

This and you are stealthed till your first shot.

 

but not requiring the natural cover. There is not enough of it in useful places in pvp anyway.

[Reolos]

I see so little PvE application for this, except for the rare ambush set-up on a pat, which we do anyway.

 

PvP, this could be useful, but, I don't see it ever really being implimented. If anyone played WoW as far back as '04-'05, you will remember that Night Elf Hunters could Shadowmeld to Aimed Shot for a combat opener. This, in my opinion was not particularly OP, especially when compared to Rogue Stunlock or being chain feared by Shadowpriests. That being said, it was flamed SO MUCH, that it was patched into the ether. It will be no Different in SW-TOR. I dont see them EVER giving Snipers stealth, if you want stealth, roll an Assassin or an Op.

[SandTrout]

I recommend that we form a consensus on how our community wants this to be played out, then present it to the Gunslingers for their take (since they'll get it too), then present it to the general community/devs.

 

The current draft I see that is being agreed upon regarding actual balance (worrying about nerf-herders isn't an argument regarding actual balance) is as follows:

 

Stealth will only be available while kneeled or in cover, out of combat, and any ability that would normally generate aggro will break stealth (attacking, Explosive probe, cover burst, ect.) We could possibly include ANY action including activating Entrench and other defenses would break the stealth for ~6 seconds.

 

My recommended amendments/ needed refinements to the concept:

 

What is the normal visibility range for stealthed Ops/Assassins? I understand they get an improved stealth buff as well, and sniper/gunslinger stationary stealth should only be the same quality as their base, not improved, stealth ability.

 

Should the channel for Ambush break the stealth? Unlike most cast-time abilities, including Snipe, Ambush does not generate aggro in PvE until it lands. PvP makes it difficult enough to get off and ambush due to LoS that the ability becomes largely useless in PvP. This would allow Ambush to have a niche in PvP that it currently lacks, and allow it to live up to its name.

[Scarce]

I#d agree that everything you use, safe for ambush, while in cover stealth should break it. It also should be a low level stealth so that if someone walks close to you will get spotted.

[BlindRapture]

I really, really, REALLY, like this idea. It's pretty obvious why we don't get normal stealth like ops, but a stationary stealth that lets you cast only ambush sounds like much needed pvp utility without being game breaking. The concept fits perfectly with the class as well.

[SandTrout]

Presented this to the gunslingers, and the only serious complaint has been regarding the possibility of actually getting ambushed by 3-4 snipers. If you have 3-4 snipers camping on your team, you've got some pretty big issues in a WZ.

[RoeKG]

I like this idea, but we already have increased range, I don't see any way this gets put in.

 

All it does is promote even more camping among snipers, anyway.

[SandTrout]

I like this idea, but we already have increased range, I don't see any way this gets put in.

 

All it does is promote even more camping among snipers, anyway.

sorry, but the +5m, that we have over other ranged classes is negligible in PvP where the limiting factors are LoS and how long it takes the enemy to get to you. that aditional 5m is a mere fraction of a second, compared to the 1.5s that we usually need to use on a Snipe, 2.5s if you're feeling froggy for the ambush.

 

Even if you open with a leg-shot, but the time the enemy is rooted, they're already within the 30m range, meaning that you have to break cover, back up, loosing entrench, and reposition to take advantage of that extra ~1s net of damage that you might be able to dish out.

 

Snipers do not have the ability to KEEP any player outside of 30m and inside of 35.

 

The +5m may mean something in PvE, but the stealth is absolutely meaningless there.

Edited January 10, 2012 by SandTrout

[RoeKG]

sorry, but the +5m, that we have over other ranged classes is negligible in PvP where the limiting factors are LoS and how long it takes the enemy to get to you. that aditional 5m is a mere fraction of a second, compared to the 1.5s that we usually need to use on a Snipe, 2.5s if you're feeling froggy for the ambush.

 

Even if you open with a leg-shot, but the time the enemy is rooted, they're already within the 30m range, meaning that you have to break cover, back up, loosing entrench, and reposition to take advantage of that extra ~1s net of damage that you might be able to dish out.

 

Snipers do not have the ability to KEEP any player outside of 30m and inside of 35.

 

The +5m may mean something in PvE, but the stealth is absolutely meaningless there.

 

Sorry, but it still gives you the ability to strike first no matter how little you think it does.

[devKat]

I was thinking of this same topic yesterday.

 

If it was made so you drop aggro in PvE via a fade while going into cover effect, it would prove useful.

Maybe a 5-6 second skill that stealths you, while losing aggro over time.

Also put a cooldown on it so people don't cry about it.

 

I don't see how this would make a sniper OP, it would just add some utility.

 

So there, useful in PvP and PvE

 

 

I +1 this idea

Signed

[SpectreVII]

I think we're probably the most balanced class in the game atm. Not OP, but definitely not UP, with all our trees offering some kind of utility. That said, I completely and utterly support the cover stealth idea. Me and my friends were wondering why a Sniper, who in most cultures is a master of stealth and setting up shots, didn't have some kind of stationary stealth.

 

/sign

[skekUng]

/signed

 

Snipers could use a utility as you suggested or a variation of it. Typically a sniper would not be seen until they make their presence known. Otherwise they wouldn't be a very good sniper.

 

To quote the IA: "I like assassinating assassins. They always look so surprised."

 

There can't much of a surprise when you go to "Cover in Place" behind a wall with flashing lights advertising exactly where you are.

Edited January 10, 2012 by skekUng

[SandTrout]

Sorry, but it still gives you the ability to strike first no matter how little you think it does.

We strike first against any melee class regardless. against ranged classes, 5m is covered in .25 seconds (if that much) and they don't need to set into cover (about .5s delay in time to engage due to lag and other issues) meaning that we are functionally at a disadvantage against other ranged classes, regardless of how you want to delude youself. Add to that the fact that all of our major damage abilities either have a 1.5+ second cast time (marksman) OR a 30m range (engineering and lethality builds don't get the range bonus).

[Obelith]

/signed /signed /signed /signed

 

Why would a Sniper not have stealth? =/

 

I expected some sort of stealth like ability, and a stationary stealth makes most sense.

[Delpicy]

I agree! Here is my take on it:

 

A sniper's big advantage is getting the first shot off. Operatives and such pretty much dominate that possibility at the moment, as they just run around and gank people in stealth. And that is what their class is meant to do. Our class is meant to set up a position, realize that we cannot take much damage, and target the most crucial enemy player near us. This is the way you play a sniper (at least for a MM, can't speak for lethality or engineering). However, we get screwed if the enemy realizes our position before we initiate the attack. And again, that's just how our class is meant to be played. It has pros and cons, but that's the general idea. We all know that. Here is my proposal; stealth for 30sec, requiring cover, 2min cd (just making up seemingly okay numbers). No stealth buffs. This is perfect. We can get the first shot off now! I know when i find a position i like, i like to stay there for a while. So i stealth up in cover for a a little while, let a group of enemies pass, as I realize I cannot take them all by myself. As my stealth is nearing its end, i see a straggler run by, and WHOOSH goes a bullet into his head. Now our duel has started, me with a great advantage. That is the solo scenario. It is also great for setting up team ambushes, especially for defense. Face it; we are built for defense (although not limited to it), so we might as well learn how to play it well. Remember, we are support.

 

However, that is just pvp. Pve is another topic. I agree, stealth is more useful for pvp than pve. But it can't hurt, right?

 

Now, I can see where other classes will think this is op. However, like i stated, we have a long cd, and no buffs during stealth. It forces the sniper to use stealth wisely and sparingly. That way, it is purely to help us have an uninterrupted setup for a ambush once in a while. Stealth for a sniper is much more strategic than that for a operative. However, the stealth prevents mobility, so if the sniper setup wrong, he will have to reveal himself to chase after you or move. Lastly, after the initial shot, your invisible. Stealth will allow you to get in closer than you initially could have before attracting attention; however, that means that the enemy will reach you that much faster. If they snipe you from just within their range while stealthed, then the sniper didn't really gain anything, as he could have hit you from there if you saw him anyway. Its a tradeoff. Stealth for a sniper is situational and never necessary, like an operative, so it becomes a preference that I like would greatly benefit our class without harming any other.

[SandTrout]

While I agree that you're on the right path to avoid making Snipers OP, I disagree with the extremely limited use of stealth as described because it renders it functionally useless for defense, where a continuous stationary stealth is necessary.

 

The reason for this is that Stealth's primary purpose for a sniper is to allow us to wait for the enemy without their knowledge and without getting immediately targeted by a Scoudrel/shadow. By the time we know we need to trigger our stealth, meaning we see the enemy, it probably means that they've seen us, and given the stationary nature, they'll just hit the area with a ground-target AoE, breaking our stealth and getting the first strike in, anyways, or waiting until our stealth fades.

 

Now, stationary stealth(permanent) allows us to actually wait, but we are still far more vulnerable to anti-stealth tactics such as spamming ground AoEs, because the spam can be systematic to flush us out because we have no way of moving without breaking stealth. Forcing people to use tactics is a good thing, in my book.

[SandTrout]

Shameless bump.

[Nyysjan]

I think i could see this working.

Altough some restriction, you only get stealth when out of combat (entering combat does not break stealth), any attack will break stealth (including ambush) with the exception of Explosive Probe or Orbital Strike (both attacks that can't been where they come from, explosive probe should not draw agro (until after it explodes) when used from stealth).

 

It would allow snipers to guard a spot without being obviously visible, but would not help us in attacking places in pvp, and would make explosive probes more usable in pve (also improve our starting burst in solo pve encounters, making fights shorter and lessen our dependancy on healrs from Doctor Lokin), not sure wether or not it should also affect companions.