Lets Talk Carnage

[LordValkyran]

Carnage is clearly the underpowered of the three Maurader specs and I can compair and contrast this.

 

I am level 43, currently, as a Maurader I will be honest, this class is underpowered. But not for an obvious reason, but for one specifically flawed spec.

 

Carnage.

 

Im likley going to respec Annilhation but it is very clear to me that Carnage is heavily underpowered in comparison and heres a few clear cut points as to why:

 

1.

 

Annihilation does more damage than its brother spec, it also has DOT's that heal you over time with critical strikes and improoves those DOT chances and damage procs.

 

2.

 

Annihilation bleeds are nasty, they can more or less brutalise an enemy to death, and Annihilate itself? Read its damage, compair it to Massacre and the effect Massacre gives in comparison and you can see "why" Carnage is nerfed.

 

 

 

For those who havent tried Carnage:

 

Carnage depends heavily on huge DPS ticks and this is the biggest reason Carnage is currently in need of a major buff. It is Tick dependant in a way that reminesses a certain WoW Paladin Tallent Tree -coughs retribution coughs- which can cause serious under-dps problems in the long run.

 

Even with Gore, even wiwth Massacre and even with Force Scream alot of your damage is underpowered and cooldown dependant. Ataru form? An absoleute joke in comparison to the benefits Annihilation gets from its heavy DOT oriented gains.

 

 

Heres a few clear examples of where the former tree (Annihilation) does better than the latter tree (Carnage):

 

- Annihilation gains a 2% heal over time for every bleed critical you strike.

 

- Annihilation also gains one of the most powerful Maurader abilities period, even if it costs more than massacre to use (Annihilate).

 

- Annihilation does not depend on ticks to endure, alot of its dot is tick oriented, granted, but those ticks do massive damage when buffed to full potential.

 

Carnage Benefits and Flaws:

 

- Carnage gains Ataru Form, this gives you a 3% increase to accuracy and a 20% chance to proc ataru's special effect, which does an additional DPS tick (mine is currently on 218 which really isnt that much). This would be an advantage for some but it comes with an even bigger drawback, this tick can only happen once every 1.5 seconds.

 

- Carnage can improove this to an 80% chance to tick with full tallent and massacure proc, but even that is utterly useless given how the 1.5 CD that Ataru depends on makes the dps worthless if you can only improove how likley it is to hit.

 

- Carnage also gets a number of other CD abilities that are per tick, such as blood frenzy which will give you 1 point of rage (wooo great! -cough-) every 6, seconds, that is a terribly poor design flaw.

 

 

 

So now, without any comparison to argue it, we know why Carnage is badly designed atm and thus what can we do to improove it? Or more importantly, what can Bioware do to even the tallent scales?

 

This is a choice really, one could either:

 

Compleatley remove the tick cooldowns and lower the chance of procs.

 

Or

 

Increase the chance of procs significantly and the damage they do but increase the CD a little.

 

Example:

 

Ataru Form could give a 50% chance to proc a 680 damage tick but it can only happen once every 3 seconds.

 

Or:

 

Ataru form could give a 10% chance to proc a 190 damage tick but have no second cooldown.

 

Realistically, that is one start.

 

Blood Frenzy:

 

This needs to have its 6 second CD reduced to about 3 seconds, or to have the rage you get for it increased to 3 points instead of 1. Since a tick that only happens once every 6 seconds that only gives 1 point of rage is utterly useless in pvp and keeping up with rival pve dps.

 

 

Defencive Forms:

 

A proc that only happens to build 2 stacks of fury every 1.5 seconds for being attacked isnt enough, especially if its only a "chance" to proc, this is the biggest flaw of Carnage spec atm, alot of it is all random draw.

 

Defencive forms needs to up the fury stacks to 4-5 stacks a tick every 1.5 secs or to simply give 2 points of fury every time the target is hit (that is full defencive forms stacks).

 

It may also just be me but I swear that ive never once seen the 15% movement speedbenefit from Ataru actually work.

 

 

 

 

Thats a few things to keep in mind about Carange that could even it up with its sister spec.

Edited January 7, 2012 by LordValkyran

[obiquitous]

Unfortunately im inclined to disagree with your thoughts on the Carnage spec.

 

I utilize it on my 50 Marauder, Yes while Annihilate does more Damage, and im talking about the ability over Massacre you need to take into effect that Annihilate has a Cooldown. Massacre does not.... If i get a full rage bar i can push over 4k damage by spamming massacre easy and follow it up with a guarranteed FS Crit for almost 3k.

 

Ergo im able to push out about 7K+ Damage before you can use your annihilate ability twice.

 

Annihilate has a 12 second cooldown, which is okay but like i said im pretty damn sure i can out damage you with Carnage easily.

 

Ataru Form is also serious money with Massacre as it guarrantees a proc of Ataru and my ataru's proc for over 300 damage each.

 

I will however make the arguement that Marauders do need some form of a knockback and a decent stun to compete in the CC area to atleast some degree an interruptable stun is just useless.

[SoH-Floyd]

I love my Carnage

 

You haven't seen the speed bonus from Ataru work because it does not stack with Sprint. You'll only see it in combat, which is why I dropped that talent fast. 2pts for 15% speed in combat? SNOOZE.

Edited January 7, 2012 by SoH-Floyd

[Anishor]

Unfortunately im inclined to disagree with your thoughts on the Carnage spec.

 

I utilize it on my 50 Marauder, Yes while Annihilate does more Damage, and im talking about the ability over Massacre you need to take into effect that Annihilate has a Cooldown. Massacre does not.... If i get a full rage bar i can push over 4k damage by spamming massacre easy and follow it up with a guarranteed FS Crit for almost 3k.

 

Ergo im able to push out about 7K+ Damage before you can use your annihilate ability twice.

 

Annihilate has a 12 second cooldown, which is okay but like i said im pretty damn sure i can out damage you with Carnage easily.

 

Ataru Form is also serious money with Massacre as it guarrantees a proc of Ataru and my ataru's proc for over 300 damage each.

 

I will however make the arguement that Marauders do need some form of a knockback and a decent stun to compete in the CC area to atleast some degree an interruptable stun is just useless.

 

Most of annihilation's damage is from deadly sabers and the other dot, both of which aren't mitigated by armor. Annihilation is just a nice heavy damage ability that resets the cd on the cauterize equivalent dot.

 

I personally think that the Ataru proc should be .5 secs that way it can take advantage of off hand hits more or change it to internal damage.

 

I also overall think that zen should provide all three forms kb and snare resistance if not immunity.

[Anishor]

I love my Carnage

 

You haven't seen the speed bonus from Ataru work because it does not stack with Sprint. You'll only see it in combat, which is why I dropped that talent fast. 2pts for 15% speed in combat? SNOOZE.

 

That talent is arguably the best talent in the entire tree. As a carnage if you're not in range your not doing any damage.

[AcaciaDragon]

Carnage is clearly the underpowered of the three Maurader specs and I can compair and contrast this.

 

I am level 43, currently, as a Maurader I will be honest, this class is underpowered. But not for an obvious reason, but for one specifically flawed spec.

 

Carnage.

 

Carnage is is great for PvP and Single Target DPS as well as controlling and frustrating your opponent. Rage and Annhilation are great for PvE. I leveled Carnage from 1-50 and it was a challenge, but with companions like Quinn and Beast dude(forgot his name) my job became easier.

 

Im likley going to respec Annilhation but it is very clear to me that Carnage is heavily underpowered in comparison and heres a few clear cut points as to why:

 

1.

 

Annihilation does more damage than its brother spec, it also has DOT's that heal you over time with critical strikes and improoves those DOT chances and damage procs.

 

2.

 

Annihilation bleeds are nasty, they can more or less brutalise an enemy to death, and Annihilate itself? Read its damage, compair it to Massacre and the effect Massacre gives in comparison and you can see "why" Carnage is nerfed.

 

Carnage isnt nerfed. It requires a little more awareness than the other specs. And the ability to easily use all your abilities(and by this i mean custom key binds for at least 15 abilities)

 

 

For those who havent tried Carnage:

 

Carnage depends heavily on huge DPS ticks and this is the biggest reason Carnage is currently in need of a major buff. It is Tick dependant in a way that reminesses a certain WoW Paladin Tallent Tree -coughs retribution coughs- which can cause serious under-dps problems in the long run.

 

Plenty of other classes and specs, including rage, are dependent on ticks and stacks. Thats how all mmos are and how most classes are setup. Thats what makes them interesting. watching for certain things. The thing that makes it workable or not is how dependable these ticks are. you can be 100% certain after massacre, your next force scream will crit. You can call that a tick, i see it as setup for a HUGE attack. Same with Gore, use it before using Force scream or right before Beserk to get huge damage!, mixed with Crit relics and you can see massacre do just as much damage per use as a Force Scream. at a half second faster

 

Even with Gore, even wiwth Massacre and even with Force Scream alot of your damage is underpowered and cooldown dependant. Ataru form? An absoleute joke in comparison to the benefits Annihilation gets from its heavy DOT oriented gains.

 

With massacre, add 210 damage to every other attack you will ever do. its still a great move and is vastly underestimated, i agree however, i think the strikes need to be affected by our stats, 240 damage is kinda low as it doesnt seem to scale with our gear, but maybe 25% of our power can be applied to it, or force power in the future(maybe get rid of that stupid erupting fury talent).

 

Heres a few clear examples of where the former tree (Annihilation) does better than the latter tree (Carnage):

 

- Annihilation gains a 2% heal over time for every bleed critical you strike.

 

- Annihilation also gains one of the most powerful Maurader abilities period, even if it costs more than massacre to use (Annihilate).

 

Annihilate does do more initial damage, but in the long run massacre can do more as it helps other abilities(aturu form, Force Scream), annhialate is what i like to call selfish, it only helps itself. And at some point you will have to help it with battering assault or reapply Rupture. Now if ahnillate reapplyies a bleeed from rupture, that would be a whole nother story.

 

- Annihilation does not depend on ticks to endure, alot of its dot is tick oriented, granted, but those ticks do massive damage when buffed to full potential.

 

This statement makes no sense, it doesnt depend on ticks and it does. In fact it does depend on the bleed ticks to do its damage. I think what you were referring to as ticks what we call procs(blood frenzy)

 

Carnage Benefits and Flaws:

 

- Carnage gains Ataru Form, this gives you a 3% increase to accuracy and a 20% chance to proc ataru's special effect, which does an additional DPS tick (mine is currently on 218 which really isnt that much). This would be an advantage for some but it comes with an even bigger drawback, this tick can only happen once every 1.5 seconds.

 

Thats an extra 13k damage a minute, for doing nothing. and thats without any of them critting. Mine crit for around 440-460 i think. thats a possible 20k damage extra a min and you get 3% accuracy with the form. When all you ahve to do, is keep the form up. Bleeds have to be repallied, but i am curious as to how much damage bleeds can pull in a minute, since they crit as well. Id love to see how the two compare.

 

- Carnage can improove this to an 80% chance to tick with full tallent and massacure proc, but even that is utterly useless given how the 1.5 CD that Ataru depends on makes the dps worthless if you can only improove how likley it is to hit.

 

1.5 seconds is the GCD. Again your doing nothing do achieve this to concentrate on other things. This spec, again, relies heavily on awareness, not having to watch dots for me is just one way i can make sure my opponet can stay worried about how focused i am on destroying him

 

- Carnage also gets a number of other CD abilities that are per tick, such as blood frenzy which will give you 1 point of rage (wooo great! -cough-) every 6, seconds, that is a terribly poor design flaw.

 

Until you get to 50, your rage spending will be higher than normal. Enraged slash int he annhilation tree is a god send. During a beserk i only have to spend half my rage to get the job done, leaving more time for a gore and Force scream at appropriate points.

 

So now, without any comparison to argue it, we know why Carnage is badly designed atm and thus what can we do to improove it? Or more importantly, what can Bioware do to even the tallent scales?

 

This is a choice really, one could either:

 

Compleatley remove the tick cooldowns and lower the chance of procs.

 

Or

 

Increase the chance of procs significantly and the damage they do but increase the CD a little.

 

Example:

 

Ataru Form could give a 50% chance to proc a 680 damage tick but it can only happen once every 3 seconds.

 

Or:

 

Ataru form could give a 10% chance to proc a 190 damage tick but have no second cooldown.

 

Realistically, that is one start.

 

 

All that is your oppinion and everyone has one. I dont agree with it, id rather see longer Gore times and maybe a shorter cooldown on Force Scream(maybe associate blood frenzy with that) as Rage currently has a 9 second CD on it(3 seconds shorter than mine), when its MY big damage dealing move.

 

Blood Frenzy:

 

This needs to have its 6 second CD reduced to about 3 seconds, or to have the rage you get for it increased to 3 points instead of 1. Since a tick that only happens once every 6 seconds that only gives 1 point of rage is utterly useless in pvp and keeping up with rival pve dps.

 

You didnt think this through. you would basically have 2-3 seconds to use a Force Scream for a crit. Also there is no CD for this proc, the moment mine dissappears a new one pops up. Now if it gave 1 rage every 6 seconds for 12 seconds that might sound better, but i do agree that the rage it awards is a bit low, especially in pvp.

 

Defencive Forms:

 

A proc that only happens to build 2 stacks of fury every 1.5 seconds for being attacked isnt enough, especially if its only a "chance" to proc, this is the biggest flaw of Carnage spec atm, alot of it is all random draw.

 

I can get a full thing of fury after every mob pull with this talent. With cloack of pain and its talents, i get rage too.Did you actually try this talent out before you said anything on it?

 

Defencive forms needs to up the fury stacks to 4-5 stacks a tick every 1.5 secs or to simply give 2 points of fury every time the target is hit (that is full defencive forms stacks).

 

That is way over powered, we would have a full stack of fury every 11 seconds.

 

It may also just be me but I swear that ive never once seen the 15% movement speedbenefit from Ataru actually work.

 

Its constant. you see it when you move. its not a buff, as long as your in aturu form its working. I notice it alot in pvp as my opponents try t run away but im right there behind them, its a problem when i run right through them and am no longer facing my opponent). i speced rage yesterday to try it and that was the biggest thing i missed in pvp, my movement buff.

 

 

 

 

Thats a few things to keep in mind about Carange that could even it up with its sister spec.

 

 

Check out what i wrote in red.

[AcaciaDragon]

I love my Carnage

 

You haven't seen the speed bonus from Ataru work because it does not stack with Sprint. You'll only see it in combat, which is why I dropped that talent fast. 2pts for 15% speed in combat? SNOOZE.

 

It works best in pvp when your constantly moving.

[Munx]

I LOVE carnage, but after the last few patches Massacre has felt buggy, to the point where I was forced to submit a bug report on it.

 

Basicly it seems like if used more then once in a row it often bugs out and completly ignores you stats etc, with 1500 str, 78% surge and about 700-near 900 prim dmg my massacre is frequently critting below 1k on normal mobs, and at times hitting as low as 400 with normal attacks.

 

Don't get me wrong it CAN crit as high as 2k-2.5k, but more often then not it seems it somehow bugs out and does far lower damage then it should.

 

The massacre hits always seemed to vary to much, but it seems to have gotten considerably worse after the latest patch spam...

 

despite my gear getting considerably better.

 

also if anything is making marauder "underpowered" its our buggy abilities and more importantly our useless offhand, the offhand dosnt take advantage of your stats at all, it only uses the rating, which is absolutely crap.

 

I love my marauder I really do, but I would be lying to myself if I somehow got it into my head that my dps i on par with that of Ops/Snipers/Shadows/mercs .. My cd's make me useful in pvp, but in pve my dps is just not what it should be tbh.

[Xerain]

Unfortunately im inclined to disagree with your thoughts on the Carnage spec.

 

I utilize it on my 50 Marauder, Yes while Annihilate does more Damage, and im talking about the ability over Massacre you need to take into effect that Annihilate has a Cooldown. Massacre does not.... If i get a full rage bar i can push over 4k damage by spamming massacre easy and follow it up with a guarranteed FS Crit for almost 3k.

 

Ergo im able to push out about 7K+ Damage before you can use your annihilate ability twice.

 

Annihilate has a 12 second cooldown, which is okay but like i said im pretty damn sure i can out damage you with Carnage easily.

 

Ataru Form is also serious money with Massacre as it guarrantees a proc of Ataru and my ataru's proc for over 300 damage each.

 

I will however make the arguement that Marauders do need some form of a knockback and a decent stun to compete in the CC area to atleast some degree an interruptable stun is just useless.

 

annihilate actually has a 10.5 second cd atleast. The annihilate buff...

 

also all those DOT ticks ignore armor and hit from 350-400 damage a tick normally. They do damage.

 

yes lets give all classes a knockback!

[Kibaken]

I play Carnage as my main spec and have no problems in PvE or PvP. Marauders in general could use a few tweaks to survivability or CC ability but other than that we're more than fine.

 

Carnage just takes a different mindset to play correctly.

 

It's not a run in there and smash ALL the things spec or a run in there and DoT ALL the things spec.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Kibaken

[LordValkyran]

Dont get me wrong, Carnage is raw DPS, but the point is that it relies to much on percentage hits rather than guarenteed damage.

 

Thats where Annihilate does have the critical advantage. Alot more of Annihilates abilities score an almost guarenteed proc which means that you can instantly apply its DOTS.

 

Carnage suffers from a % chance to do everything and that, combined with cooldwns for that everything means Carnage ultimatley suffers from not only being a "chance" to hurt your enemy spec, but also a "rapid exhausture" spec which really doesnt give you the full benefit of the damage you could do.

 

Yes, it requires an awareness that is caused through Gore procs, but even Gore wont save you from an 80% chance, because thats still a 20% failure rate, that means your still not always hitting, your not always doing damage.

 

That, is wasteful.

 

Is it the fault of the player? No, not always, especially if the mechanical flaw is to give you a chance to proc, its literally random luck.

 

In this case, luck runs out fast, which is why Carnage "does" need changes, to buff it up to be equal to its more stable sister spec, Annihilate.

[Kibaken]

Dont get me wrong, Carnage is raw DPS, but the point is that it relies to much on percentage hits rather than guarenteed damage.

 

Thats where Annihilate does have the critical advantage. Alot more of Annihilates abilities score an almost guarenteed proc which means that you can instantly apply its DOTS.

 

Carnage suffers from a % chance to do everything and that, combined with cooldwns for that everything means Carnage ultimatley suffers from not only being a "chance" to hurt your enemy spec, but also a "rapid exhausture" spec which really doesnt give you the full benefit of the damage you could do.

 

Yes, it requires an awareness that is caused through Gore procs, but even Gore wont save you from an 80% chance, because thats still a 20% failure rate, that means your still not always hitting, your not always doing damage.

 

That, is wasteful.

 

Is it the fault of the player? No, not always, especially if the mechanical flaw is to give you a chance to proc, its literally random luck.

 

In this case, luck runs out fast, which is why Carnage "does" need changes, to buff it up to be equal to its more stable sister spec, Annihilate.

 

 

The vast majority of your Ataru procs are going to be coming from Massacre. I rarely if ever don't have the Massacre buff up. Moving those procs to 100% or changing them in any way would, I think, be trying to fix something that isn't fundamentally broken.

 

It's also not a "failure" rate, per se. You're not missing 20% of them. Ataru proccing all the time would add up really quickly. 80% is good.

 

Consider this: Massacre's instant Ataru is guaranteed and ignores the proc cooldown, plus any gained from Battering Assault, Gore, and Ravage while the Massacre buff is up. Using your's as an example: with that one berserk not only are you getting an extra 1308 damage from Massacre's instant one, you have an 80% chance to proc one for every other ability. Let's, now, assume luck decided to smile on you today and Gore, Battering Assault and Ravage all proc an extra one. That's a total of 1962 damage. But wait! The one for Gore, Ravage and Battering Assault were done under your Gore buff, so 3 of them ignore 100% armor. But look at that, half of them crit, as well. A passive, proc based mechanic contributed to an extra 2k+ damage in the course of a few globals. That damage wasn't tied to a bleed and you didn't spend any extra Rage to put it on.

 

Over the course of a boss fight that damage will add up quick. Look at Combat Swords in WoW: that chance was quite low and it just procced an extra swing (not a separate attack) and still packed quite a punch. Over the course of a PvP match, well, that all depends. Annihilation is better in several respects due to bleeds bypassing all armor. However, if timed right the burst from Gore can absolutely wreck, but either way that 2k+ Ataru damage in that short of time will add up quick.

 

On paper I will admit Carnage does look weaker. It isn't; not by a longshot.

 

On Rage generation, I can safely say that I've never once been Rage starved as Carnage. That "one extra rage every 6 seconds" from Blood Frenzy is more than enough considering how quickly Berserk can come up and how relatively cheap Massacre is. Comparing the workings and Rage generation between Annihilation and Carnage would be like comparing a carpenter to a brick layer. Sure they're both building a house, but they're going to be doing it completely differently and need completely different resources.

 

Because of Annihilation's need to have Vicious Slash and Annihilate as filler (while Carnage only uses Massacre) their rage usage is a lot spikier than Carnage's, whose one main ability doesn't cost anything (that, of course, being Ravage). That's why Annihilation has so much more Rage generation and that's why it's so high up the tree. It needs it while Carnage doesn't.

 

Comparing the numbers blankly without looking at how things actually work is flawed.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Kibaken