Guardian Tanking and Rotation

[Icewulf]

Nice post.

 

One item for conversation is Force Sweep for single targets. With the right talents, this will hit quite hard and even surpass Blade Storm for damage. So unless I am missing where one of these talent's generates extra threat (other than hilt strike), I would move Force Sweep into all rotations.

[BladenChroma]

Nice post.

 

One item for conversation is Force Sweep for single targets. With the right talents, this will hit quite hard and even surpass Blade Storm for damage. So unless I am missing where one of these talent's generates extra threat (other than hilt strike), I would move Force Sweep into all rotations.

 

Glad I am not the only one with Threat problems. But I still get treated like I can't tank but it makes me feel better that it isn't my fault. I can hold threat on a boss extremely well. I think Guardians would make better off tanks in raids than main tanks.

 

Sometimes I wish I would have gone Sentinel

[Craxim]

As far as hit goes, it's only your "Basic Attacks" (Da **** does that mean?, I guess Strike?) don't have 100%, everything that falls under "Special Attacks" does.

 

I do understand where the guy who said he gets blamed for being a "bad tank" comes from, people don't understand it's not as easy as "Use ___ AoE off CD and you're good" anymore. But as far as off-tank vs main tank, it depends on fight. On a fight with add spawns, a Trooper is BY FAR the best option, making you, the Guardian, the boss tank. Or the main tank. Whatever you want to call it.

 

On fights that have no adds, but still need 2 tanks, a Trooper would be better for boss tanking, as their DPS is so dependent on ammo regen from taking damage, unlike a Guardian.

[Infinite_Zen]

I tweaked my build a little bit last night, I created this 34/7 build so far I am not missing the 3% hit, my regular hit is 94.78 right now and Special is 104.78.

 

I still feel 6% strength is a bigger benefit than 2 Focus cost reduction to Hilt Strike, with such a long CD it's easier to make sure you have the Focus you need for Hilt Strike when it comes off CD.

 

I ran something with a huge DPS Trooper and did find I greatly enjoyed that 15 sec reduction in cooldown on Challenging Call and the added benefit on Force Push was a nice bonus now that it resets Force Leap.

[Craxim]

I tweaked my build a little bit last night, I created this 34/7 build so far I am not missing the 3% hit, my regular hit is 94.78 right now and Special is 104.78.

 

I still feel 6% strength is a bigger benefit than 2 Focus cost reduction to Hilt Strike, with such a long CD it's easier to make sure you have the Focus you need for Hilt Strike when it comes off CD.

 

I ran something with a huge DPS Trooper and did find I greatly enjoyed that 15 sec reduction in cooldown on Challenging Call and the added benefit on Force Push was a nice bonus now that it resets Force Leap.

 

The reduction to Challenging Call is huge, as in Ops it is pretty obvious they wanted effective management of taunt CD's to be a part of the skill of tanking.

 

I'll toy with the 6% as well, you've made me curious.

[Craxim]

Small bump, just wanted to add that with Enure and the new Rakata medpac it is possible to achieve over 30k health for a short period of time if you are in Colunmi gear or higher. This is useful for a few nightmare fights.

[sotacram]

Does challenging call create spike enmity or is it a temporary draw effect then back to what they were doing. Edited January 20, 2012 by sotacram

[ipinch]

Its just a force taunt, Challenging call and Taunt don't generate threat.

 

My biggest problem with tanking and threat management is the lack of skills that explicitly generate threat (i.e. hilt strike) on top of threat generated by damage. The build I currently run so far (successful Taral V and False Emperor HM) doesn't have Guardian or Overhead slash. When I get home I'll edit to post my build, but it focuses on maxing Force Sweep's damage to generate AOE threat.

 

Its one form of the Defense/Vigilance build.

 

Also something to note: If you don't use Guard, you should. It helps redirect damage away from a DPS target to you, as well as solving part of the DPS threat problem. Just make sure that you get a feel for the max distance you can be from the person you are guarding as its range is not that far. I suggest putting it on the person you are having the hardest time holding agro from.

 

I know this sounds strange coming from a tank, but you don't HAVE to hold agro on everything you are fighting at least in flashpoints. 1 DPS can tank a strong or normal mob fine while they blow it up as long as you are holding the champion/elite.

[Atamasama]

Does challenging call create spike enmity or is it a temporary draw effect then back to what they were doing.

It only temporarily forces things to have aggro on you, it doesn't build threat. All taunts in TOR work this way. It's mainly useful to get things focused on you long enough for you to hit them with hard-hitting attacks and lock in that aggro without them hurting the rest of the group too much in the meantime. It can also help gather up melee enemies to hit them with Force Sweep.

[Craxim]

As they said, taunts don't generate threat, but they do stack in a sense. If you taunt, and another tank taunts after you, the top 2 on his threat table for duration of the effects is him and then you. Useful for pre-taunting as an off-tank right before a boss does a knock-back aggro dump, as so many in this game do.

[Wookiebeast]

Good guide - would be great guide if you post skill trees to support what you say

 

[Craxim]

Good guide - would be great guide if you post skill trees to support what you say

 

 

Post skill trees? Not sure what you mean, I have posted my current build, and will re-post if I do decide to go with the new 6% str idea. If you could clarify what you mean, maybe I could get on it?

[Craxim]

I've decided that the 6% strength, along with using 1 defensive cooldown relic and 1 power cooldown relic is a HUGE help for aggro holding, and would suggest anyone who is not using this to try it out.

[pure_laced]

I've decided that the 6% strength, along with using 1 defensive cooldown relic and 1 power cooldown relic is a HUGE help for aggro holding, and would suggest anyone who is not using this to try it out.

 

We shouldn't have to use relics and spec into an additional 6% str just to out-threat someone when Shadow and Vanguards can press 3 buttons and go make a sandwich, come back and mob is still on them. It's broken. To think otherwise is naive.

[aidsy]

Excellent thread, exactly what I was looking for being new to doing HMs and just generally PVE'ing with my guardian after pretty much extensively pvping since release. Just a couple questions about the single target threat generation and having to tank 2 targets at once such as the boss encounter in battle of ilum with the sith guy and the bounty hunter looking dude (forgot their names). It seems sometimes even after I totally dump all my major abilitys hilt strike, guardian slash, stasis, blade storm I STILL lose aggro to the guarded scoundrel I run with, super frustrating as it feels like theres nothing more I can do to max my threat on single targets. Secondly, in situations with 2 mob boss encounters how do you effectively hold aggro on both targets? I did the battle of ilum encounter last night and at least 1 boss was running around ruining my healer or a dps the entire time, with all the stuns and knock backs in almost every encounter how am I supposed to have enough time to not only stay ahead in threat on the main target which feels like i must use every single GCD pumping threat into him aaaaand on top of that switch targets and keep enough threat on the 2nd mob so my healer or dps aoe isnt pulling him.

[Atamasama]

We shouldn't have to use relics and spec into an additional 6% str just to out-threat someone when Shadow and Vanguards can press 3 buttons and go make a sandwich, come back and mob is still on them. It's broken. To think otherwise is naive.

Broken is when you can't fulfill your role. We can tank, we just have to work harder at it. Right now, the classes are imbalanced, there's a world of difference there.

 

I've played MMOs where I literally could not play the role I was supposed to because my class was so gimped, or where my role was unnecessary and actually hindered the party because I was taking up a character slot that could be filled by someone useful. Now that is broken. TOR isn't nearly that bad.

[Craxim]

Broken is when you can't fulfill your role. We can tank, we just have to work harder at it. Right now, the classes are imbalanced, there's a world of difference there.

 

I've played MMOs where I literally could not play the role I was supposed to because my class was so gimped, or where my role was unnecessary and actually hindered the party because I was taking up a character slot that could be filled by someone useful. Now that is broken. TOR isn't nearly that bad.

 

He is right, it's not broken. If all you've done is HM FP, where every pull has multiple ranged normal 2 shot trash, it's hard to hold aggro, but sometimes not even needed. In Ops, especially in Hardmode and Nightmare, we hold aggro just fine on bosses, often times better.

[Craxim]

Excellent thread, exactly what I was looking for being new to doing HMs and just generally PVE'ing with my guardian after pretty much extensively pvping since release. Just a couple questions about the single target threat generation and having to tank 2 targets at once such as the boss encounter in battle of ilum with the sith guy and the bounty hunter looking dude (forgot their names). It seems sometimes even after I totally dump all my major abilitys hilt strike, guardian slash, stasis, blade storm I STILL lose aggro to the guarded scoundrel I run with, super frustrating as it feels like theres nothing more I can do to max my threat on single targets. Secondly, in situations with 2 mob boss encounters how do you effectively hold aggro on both targets? I did the battle of ilum encounter last night and at least 1 boss was running around ruining my healer or a dps the entire time, with all the stuns and knock backs in almost every encounter how am I supposed to have enough time to not only stay ahead in threat on the main target which feels like i must use every single GCD pumping threat into him aaaaand on top of that switch targets and keep enough threat on the 2nd mob so my healer or dps aoe isnt pulling him.

 

It will blow your mind once how many mobs either have no aggro table, or a knockback aggro reset mechanic. The boss you're talking about, multiple bosses and trash mobs in Kaon, multiple in KP and EV, etc.

[CriticalMasses]

Hopefully they will reduce the CD of Hilt Strike soon, and as far as free Force Sweeps go, VERY rarely do I go to Force Sweep and it's not free, thanks to the talent Courage. I can also use it for my Blade Storm, which makes it cost only 1 focus. I'm still a proponent of the Defense spec, as eventually once everything is balanced and the spec has been properly brought into line, it will be the only spec to tank in and I don't want to have to re-learn anything. But until that happens, then to each, his own I suppose.

 

If you don't use force sweep then how do you help yourself with threat generation, which seems to be our most glaring issue.

 

For tanks we should be able to hold aggro on a group of mobs.

[Craxim]

If you don't use force sweep then how do you help yourself with threat generation, which seems to be our most glaring issue.

 

For tanks we should be able to hold aggro on a group of mobs.

 

That's not what I meant. I meant that when I use it, which I do off CD in an AoE situation, it rarely actually costs focus because of the talent in the Defense spec called "Courage". Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear.

[Infinite_Zen]

Of course, I can't express how much I love the 15 sec reduction to Challenging Call now. I see why it needs to be a must have talent.

 

I never realized how much time 15 seconds can be in a fight.

 

Still not missing the extra Hit from Vigilance, so I am quite happy with my 34/7/0 build I posted earlier in the thread. Though I wish there was a reasonable way to get the talent in Vigilance that would prevent stuns on me when I leap. Too many fights start with Throw Saber, Leap... and mid-leap get stunned.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Infinite_Zen

[Craxim]

Of course, I can't express how much I love the 15 sec reduction to Challenging Call now. I see why it needs to be a must have talent.

 

I never realized how much time 15 seconds can be in a fight.

 

Still not missing the extra Hit from Vigilance, so I am quite happy with my 34/7/0 build I posted earlier in the thread. Though I wish there was a reasonable way to get the talent in Vigilance that would prevent stuns on me when I leap. Too many fights start with Throw Saber, Leap... and mid-leap get stunned.

 

This is not a huge problem in Ops, and just something that a healer would have to deal with in a Flashpoint.

[Craxim]

An attempt to bring this back to the public eye