The Focus Tree - How Misguided Public Opinion Has Misrepresented A Devastating Tree

[Apocalypse-]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Overload saber work with Force Sweep to allow you to AOE burn people? I thought I saw some ticks of burn damage when I use Force Sweep right after Overload Saber.

 

It works on Cyclone Slash, but not Sweep. Cyclone is a melee attack and Sweep is a force attack.

 

A LONG LONG time ago, there used to be a talent that allowed Force Sweep to spread Cauterize to all hit targets when one target was cauterized. That talent was lost to the nearly useless Jedi Crusader trait. I truly want it back...

[Houd]

Focus tree is underestimated. Let the noobs go on..

[Toppins]

This is all fine and dandy, but I out-damage focus tree Sents as a Watchman and all of my damage is single-target, enemy-healer-focused. I have better interrupts, stick to my target just as well, and have more survivability.

 

You have great AoE damage and Force Exhaustion.

 

I remain unconvinced. It's not terrible, and I've never thought it was terrible... it's just gimmicky AoE.

[Toppins]

It works on Cyclone Slash, but not Sweep. Cyclone is a melee attack and Sweep is a force attack.

 

A LONG LONG time ago, there used to be a talent that allowed Force Sweep to spread Cauterize to all hit targets when one target was cauterized. That talent was lost to the nearly useless Jedi Crusader trait. I truly want it back...

 

Wait... an extra 1 focus every ~4 seconds is useless?

[Omniblast]

http://s856.photobucket.com/albums/ab129/apocalypse32100/?action=view&current=swtor_2012_01_01_19_21_51_164.jpg

http://s856.photobucket.com/albums/ab129/apocalypse32100/?action=view&current=swtor_2012_01_01_19_21_51_164.jpg

 

There are your screenshots. They are 2 of many. You'll notice both games I was or tied for highest objective.

 

that is quite impressive.

 

What skill have you removed from your bars. Just trying to get a better feel of what useless skill I don't need in my bar that's reducing my damage by a few thousand. Granted I'm not level 50 yet but I'm loving the watchmen/an build so far. I've heard to get rid of Rispote and Master Strikes.

[Anelyn]

This is all fine and dandy, but I out-damage focus tree Sents as a Watchman and all of my damage is single-target, enemy-healer-focused. I have better interrupts, stick to my target just as well, and have more survivability.

 

You have great AoE damage and Force Exhaustion.

 

I remain unconvinced. It's not terrible, and I've never thought it was terrible... it's just gimmicky AoE.

 

I don't see why is a gimmick AoE spec. You don't need to have the buffed Force Sweep all the time, you still have good damage without the 100% increased dmg stacks.

 

But each to their own, I don't see this thread as one trying to steal peeps from Watchman over to Focus tree, is just a thread explaining that Focus is a viable spec for end game play be it pve or pvp. Am glad that all - or most of ACs work nice and have their niche where they shine, but still perform ok in rest of departments, and there is no cookie cutter spec you must have for someone to not consider you a noob or smth.

[Lynear]

I'll reply with this single target damage without needing AOE padding.

 

http://i42.tinypic.com/2n1hlw9.png

[ZACASAUR]

I'll reply with this single target damage without needing AOE padding.

 

http://i42.tinypic.com/2n1hlw9.png

 

Sorry did I miss where you said what kind of sentinel you did this with.

[Rankith]

Sorry did I miss where you said what kind of sentinel you did this with.

 

He is Watchman spec, so definately was not doing much if any aoe damage.

[ZACASAUR]

He is Watchman spec, so definately was not doing much if any aoe damage.

 

Sorry I didn't see that in previous post and being new to sentinel could not tell from the image

[Anelyn]

Speaking of which, does Shii-Cho Mastery talent affect force attacks too? Or only melee ones. Am curious because at times the tooltips are not really relfective of the intended mechanic.

[wolfnorthwind]

Watchman : Can do good dps long term. But only is worth a damn on mobs that live past 2-3 skill rotations as they don't reach their full damage until then. It is horrible for solo questing as you never get the benefit of your full burns, but can be ok if you are needing to take out elites as it gives you some decent self healing. However after you get Doc this healing is uneccessary.

 

You're at full damage in five attacks. Your burns are in full effect within 3 or 4 attacks depending on whether you went in with focus or were starting cold. The self healing is almost completely trivial - Doc is not as useful as T7 or Scourge, as you can burn down a whole mob of enemies in a few seconds.

 

The only real issue is that most trash kills are dead before your burns become meaningful... I don't see what the problem is here... they're dead. Your first non-strong target is dead almost instantly from leap/sweep/pommel anyway - you only have to follow rotation on a strong/elite.

 

Again, your damage peaks after five attacks, which will put 3 stacks of overload and cauterise on your target and max juyo to set you up for master strike. If you're specced right your burns and incoming hits are both recharging your focus bar while you channel the attack and you can follow up immediately with a second set of dots (only needs 5 focus).

[MBirkhofer]

New weapon, and not swamped with work, so I can log on and give actual list damage values for comparison. 1275str, champ weapons, rest is mostly level 45-48 blue mods.

aka, still a long way from full champ gear, and level 50 3 green shard relic

 

Self buffed. base damage. w/o expertise/crit applied/averaged.

Force attacks 100% hit rate, not mitigated by defense stat. 35% crit rate, 95% crit damage.

Melee attacks. 100% mh hit rate, 73% oh. mitigated by def stat. 28% crit rate, 65% crit damage. slash crit rate 43%. (force attacks are 7% higher then melee and NOT 6% becuase willpower also gives us crit and damage for force attacks. While not a major factor, the 120ish depending on datacron collections is totally 1% crit. its also liek +20-30 damage. )

20% armor pen on all moves.

 

force crush 372x6 +988 =3244

sweep 1111-1181, 2222-2362 with 100%

bladestorm 1552-1622

stasis 577x4= 2308

slash 1281-1506 (melee attack,. offhand hit % penalty.)

cauterize 473-557 +679= 1236 (top value, not average) dot is force, gains +30% crit damage, and 6% crit chance.

zleap 1364- 1635 (melee attack. offhand hit %penalty.)

dispatch 2031-2406 (1 hand "weapon" attack.)

 

I'll let you do that math on crits, expertise, adrenals.

[Zhorx]

I'll add another Watchman screenshot. Without any decent healer on our side.

 

http://i.picoodle.com/74fivx5j

 

Like i tried to post a few pages ago, focus does a lot of damage against weak opponents, but is healer reliant. Watchman is better against good opponents and is far less reliant on healer support.

Against really good opponents who use their cooldowns appropriately however Sentinel seems to be one ability short when it comes to catching up. Take a look at that above screenshot, i was still completely unable to kill their sorceress, or even get close. The times i tried i either died or had to force cloak to get out of the fight. They also lacked good geared snipers or operatives.

[thanealpha]

I've been thinking of trying a focus build for awhile now, since hitting 50 anyhow.

 

I enjoy Combat but I feel situationally week.

 

The issue I have with focus from the outside is it APPEARS that Guard Focus is better than Sent Focus. So why play the gimped version?

 

Editing to add: Based on the Watchmen numbers I'm seeing reported here I'm more convinced than ever that Combat is broken.

 

500k? I've hit HALF that only a few times in a warfront.

Edited January 10, 2012 by thanealpha

[EasymodeX]

Against really good opponents who use their cooldowns appropriately however Sentinel seems to be one ability short when it comes to catching up.

 

Only when they get teammate assistance. Otherwise you should be able to catch up to them with:

 

1. Leap

2. Camo

3. Stasis to nullify a movement speed effect

4. CC break to nullify a mez+run

5. Generic snare where appropriate

 

Also, this is where Carn/Combat begins to pick up an advantage with the root on the heal debuff, as well as the passive 15% run speed.

 

When I ran Combat, there were many, many situations where I would simply run after the enemy and root them instead of blowing a leap.

[EasymodeX]

Editing to add: Based on the Watchmen numbers I'm seeing reported here I'm more convinced than ever that Combat is broken.

 

Combat is broken. It simply needs some core damage buffs -- although not that much. It actually scales pretty well at a stat level significantly above where we're currently at. Combat needs to do around 400k in the same situation where Watchman does 500k to be competitive, I would say. That probably involves doubling Ataru proc damage, taking Precision off the GCD, and calling it a day. May have to reduce that buff to Ataru procs and add a bit to Blade Storm, or else the latter will be replaced by Blade Rush spam.

 

My best Combat scores landed just around 300k. My best Focus scores landed around 530k. Could probably hit 575k in a good game where I actually get heals ...

 

I haven't ran Watchman since I hit level 50, but I will be cycling back to that in a few days. Should be fun to interrupt spam again.

[Zhorx]

Only when they get teammate assistance. Otherwise you should be able to catch up to them with:

 

1. Leap

2. Camo

3. Stasis to nullify a movement speed effect

4. CC break to nullify a mez+run

5. Generic snare where appropriate

 

Also, this is where Carn/Combat begins to pick up an advantage with the root on the heal debuff, as well as the passive 15% run speed.

 

When I ran Combat, there were many, many situations where I would simply run after the enemy and root them instead of blowing a leap.

Now add CC break to nullify Stasis, and realize that it's one short. Then add in Sorceresses mez+stun.

 

Sentinels are one catch-up ability short against any competent opponent.

[EasymodeX]

That depends if you engaged by running to them or using Force Leap at the start.

 

Note: my list was not sequential. You use Force Leap more than once, particularly as Watchman. If they're serious about running the hell away, you'll end up using Force Leap 3 times.

 

Also, I did not list Transcendence or putting your back to a proper wall or collision object.

 

Edit: And the bottom line is that if they're dead set on running away, go kill something else while you LOS a counterattack. Which will also force them into a weaker position where you can close distance freely, or simply let your leap reset, etc.

 

 

Sidenote: If they CC break the Stasis, that's fine. You still stopped their movement speed which is now on cooldown, which was the whole point.

Edited January 10, 2012 by EasymodeX

[thanealpha]

Combat is broken. It simply needs some core damage buffs -- although not that much. It actually scales pretty well at a stat level significantly above where we're currently at. Combat needs to do around 400k in the same situation where Watchman does 500k to be competitive, I would say. That probably involves doubling Ataru proc damage, taking Precision off the GCD, and calling it a day. May have to reduce that buff to Ataru procs and add a bit to Blade Storm, or else the latter will be replaced by Blade Rush spam.

 

My best Combat scores landed just around 300k. My best Focus scores landed around 530k. Could probably hit 575k in a good game where I actually get heals ...

 

I haven't ran Watchman since I hit level 50, but I will be cycling back to that in a few days. Should be fun to interrupt spam again.

 

This is EXACTLY what I'm experiencing as well. It seems that Combat is in a completely different damage bracket as Focus or Watchman. And I just don't see a measurable utility or survivability perk to it over those two to compensate for that lack of damage.

[Zhorx]

That depends if you engaged by running to them or using Force Leap at the start.

 

Note: my list was not sequential. You use Force Leap more than once, particularly as Watchman. If they're serious about running the hell away, you'll end up using Force Leap 3 times.

 

Also, I did not list Transcendence or putting your back to a proper wall or collision object.

 

Edit: And the bottom line is that if they're dead set on running away, go kill something else while you LOS a counterattack. Which will also force them into a weaker position where you can close distance freely, or simply let your leap reset, etc.

 

 

Sidenote: If they CC break the Stasis, that's fine. You still stopped their movement speed which is now on cooldown, which was the whole point.

You're not making much sence, i said competent opponent not abolute idiots, which i stomp over any day of the week.

 

You asume the following:

# I have time to use force stasis before the opponent runt out of it's 10 yard range, but they are not quick at breaking it.

# I can just freely run up to an opponent.

 

Essentially, you're describing a situation where I as a sentinel play perfectly, while my opponents doesn't. This isn't in any way contradicting what i said about being one catch-up short to fight an equally competent player as myself.

[Spideyknight]

I really go back and forth between watchman and focus. I like both builds but focus allows me to do rotations without strike. That doesn't happen with watchman. Merc slash is too costly and you are going to be striking, guaranteed. Now strike does some decent damage but it isn't anywhere near any of your focus abilities and as I'm striking i just feel like I'm not doing anything meaningful. Granted I still have dots ticking and abilities cooling down, it just doesn't feel as active as focus. With focus I'm always hitting a good ability, I don't have to spend several gcds striking.

 

This is even more pronounced on guardian. If a focus guardian is striking something has gone horribly wrong.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Spideyknight

[EasymodeX]

# I have time to use force stasis before the opponent runt out of it's 10 yard range, but they are not quick at breaking it.

 

You have about half a second. Their force speed lasts 2 seconds. It takes at least half a second to react to get stasis'd during their force speed, more like a full second since they just hit an escape which is rarely countered by a CC in that fashion. That's almost the entire buff nullified.

 

# I can just freely run up to an opponent.

 

This isn't about *can* freely run up to an opponent. In all group PvP formats, you WILL have that opportunity. The question is whether you are able to take advantage of it given your other priorities.

 

 

Essentially, you're describing a situation where I as a sentinel play perfectly, while my opponents doesn't. This isn't in any way contradicting what i said about being one catch-up short to fight an equally competent player as myself.

 

Perhaps. Personally, I've never encountered another player 1v1 that could escape short of a vanish. Some can run away for a very long time (particularly Snipers with their CC arsenal) into teammate interference, but none could simply escape 1v1.

 

If you want to pair the abilities up line by line:

 

1. Sent: Leap to initiate + snare

2. Sorc: KB to counter

3. Sent: Transcendence, forces hard choices: an attempt at DPS, or delayed engagement (cannot out-run the Transcendence without a cooldown)

4. Sorc: Run speed

5. Sent: Run casually for Leap's CD, reserve Stasis/Camo. Sent: preload Rebuke.

6. Sorc: Stun

7. Sent: Sit the stun. Leap immediately after.

8. Sorc: Mez

9. Sent: Break the mez

 

 

At this point you are in contact and the Sorc has a KB coming up in about 8-10 seconds with Force Speed about 5 seconds after that. Your leap is on CD for about the same time. Depending on your spec and what abilities you've been using in between, and how much focus you started with, you may have Transcendence up again.

 

Also, have not used Camo in the above sequence. That is another option with 30% run speed. Also, I assumed you failed the collision check on the knockback. Also, I didn't use Stasis.

 

Also, this is with Watchman, the spec with the least CC and/or gap-closing capability.

 

 

So, in this sequence you have 8 seconds of guaranteed contact time after about 4 seconds of touch-and-go time, and this is a "failure of positioning" scenario for the Sentinel. E.g. a pessimistic one.

[Zhorx]

You have about half a second. Their force speed lasts 2 seconds. It takes at least half a second to react to get stasis'd during their force speed, more like a full second since they just hit an escape which is rarely countered by a CC in that fashion. That's almost the entire buff nullified.

Wow, half a second. I am usually using my abilities leaving me with a GCD of 1.5s ticking non stop, which means i on average have to wait 0.75s just to be able to use an ability.

 

The alternative would be to not use abilities and die anyways due to not doing any damage.

 

You're arguing fromn ignorance,which makes me wonder if you play a sentinel/marauder at all.

This isn't about *can* freely run up to an opponent. In all group PvP formats, you WILL have that opportunity. The question is whether you are able to take advantage of it given your other priorities.

I will, on ****** players. I am not talking about ****** players, you are.

 

Perhaps. Personally, I've never encountered another player 1v1 that could escape short of a vanish. Some can run away for a very long time (particularly Snipers with their CC arsenal) into teammate interference, but none could simply escape 1v1.

If you haven't you're basing your entire argument on bad opponents, like I've said several times already. Try to understand this.

If you want to pair the abilities up line by line:

 

1. Sent: Leap to initiate + snare

2. Sorc: KB to counter

3. Sent: Transcendence, forces hard choices: an attempt at DPS, or delayed engagement (cannot out-run the Transcendence without a cooldown)

4. Sorc: Run speed

5. Sent: Run casually for Leap's CD, reserve Stasis/Camo. Sent: preload Rebuke.

6. Sorc: Stun

7. Sent: Sit the stun. Leap immediately after.

8. Sorc: Mez

9. Sent: Break the mez

 

 

At this point you are in contact and the Sorc has a KB coming up in about 8-10 seconds with Force Speed about 5 seconds after that. Your leap is on CD for about the same time. Depending on your spec and what abilities you've been using in between, and how much focus you started with, you may have Transcendence up again.

 

Also, have not used Camo in the above sequence. That is another option with 30% run speed. Also, I assumed you failed the collision check on the knockback. Also, I didn't use Stasis.

 

Also, this is with Watchman, the spec with the least CC and/or gap-closing capability.

 

So, in this sequence you have 8 seconds of guaranteed contact time after about 4 seconds of touch-and-go time, and this is a "failure of positioning" scenario for the Sentinel. E.g. a pessimistic one.

Look up ALL the abilities sorceresses have at their arsenal. Not just the ones bad ones are using. Why would the sorc just randomly stun you when you're running around casually and not in range? And do you always run around with 30 centering for a transendence at will?

 

You're counting on a second leap but somehow adds it all up to "8 seconds of guaranteed contact time after about 4 seconds of touch-and-go time". This is 12 seconds of full DOTs from the sorceress, one of which also applies a 2 second root.

 

Your entire argument is grounded on your ignorance. Please stop.

[McDaniels]

Listen, i haven't tried focus so i won't make any judgements, but DAMAGE MEANS NOTHING. Doing 400k damage in a random warzone doesn't make your spec good... It's really about what is going to be the most effective use of your class and character for your team to win the objectives of the warzone, and not in public pug warzone, but when ranked warzones are out, in 8v8 serious play.

 

You think their whole team is going to stack on the door when you're playing against a well coordinated guild?

 

Our role, in my opinion, is to kill players mostly on the fringe of the battle, healers, etc, and watchman and combat are just better for that imo.

 

Also the huge speed boost for your group in the watchman tree is going to be a must have in ranked warzones.