Mercenary (dps) Tiers have odd stats...

[Shamanica]

The stat importance has been debated over and over on Theorycrafting forums alike.

 

Power is a decent stat to have but it's inferior to Crit and Surge.

Playing as an Arsenal Merc the tier stats raise some questions...

So my question is, why do all the Eliminator sets, pve and pvp have so much power on it and nearly no crit or surge?

 

Are we supposed to farm the group +2, +4 dailies and remod the gear so we can switch out some Power for Crit + Surge? (I haven't found any mods higher lvl then the daily ones so far...)

 

Somehow it feels weird to put mods into a tier set, especially when the mod is lower in lvl then the ones currently in the gear...(Talking about Champion pvp set and the Columi set, Rating 136)

 

How have you guys been altering your gear to optimize dps, if you have altered it at all.

 

Any tips or insights are greatly appreciated.

[Argonic]

I would go with crit then surge. you get heat back from crits and casting haste.

[Shamanica]

There is not much of an option in the tier gear though. It all has +power.

I know +crit and +surge is superior to power.

 

The question is really: do we have to remod our own tier gear for it to be optimal?

It seems to weird to do so...like Bioware didn't invest much time in designing the stats on the gear.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Shamanica

[iYukiFox]

I would go with crit then surge. you get heat back from crits and casting haste.

 

You don't care for haste as arsenal...2/4 abilities are instants..one is channeled..the other 1 is 1.5sec cast with a 1.5sec GCD..wasted stat.

[Shamanica]

Surge doesn't effect haste, it increases the crit damage done. Don't know why he mentioned haste, since that comes from the alacrity stat.

[Damarak]

You can't reslot tier gear with different mods from my understanding, even if we can, there arent any mods that are of that high of level. GJ BW not knowing how to stat their own class. All the pvp gear has useless alacrity on it. I'd love to have power instead, but yes crit/surge is what we SHOULD be stacking. Edited January 8, 2012 by Damarak

[Divinism]

Surge doesn't effect haste, it increases the crit damage done. Don't know why he mentioned haste, since that comes from the alacrity stat.

He probably meant the Critical Reaction talent, which increases alacrity by 5% for 10 seconds.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Divinism

[Ewert]

You don't care for haste as arsenal...2/4 abilities are instants..one is channeled..the other 1 is 1.5sec cast with a 1.5sec GCD..wasted stat.

Basing GCD thinking on other-games is bad.

 

For cast time or channeled abilities there is no GCD. Alacrity is a straight up +dps or +hps stat for all channel/casttime abilities. Burst wins in pvp.

 

Best I have done is a 2.2sec (relic CD) death from above full of 2k crits on a group. =P Also managing your vent, no-heat CD and support gas alacrity does not go to waste in healing either. I have selfcrafted +crit +alacrity implants (69 both IIRC).

 

Also for the topic, surge especially hits diminishing returns very fast. Any relic/stim CD pretty much maxes it out near the 96-98% (seems 100% is the hard cap and it probably has a logarithmic curve closing on it, sorry English not my native language so don't know the exact math words).

 

Would have to check crit DR, but for that too I reckon you start hitting DR quite badly with fully purpled out top level gear. I also assume (harhar) that power does not have a DR at all but is open-ended. And thus, if your gear already has some surge (don't need many pieces of that to get it into high DR territory), nice crit and alacrity, power is the go-to stat eventually.

[Lightmgl]

Personally so far for PvP I've found full Crit + Surge with 2pc PVE Eliminator Bonus and the rest all Champion gear has the best results. Looking at a 55%-60% crit chance on Tracer and 40%-45% on everything else (buffed) with 90% surge and 9% expertise is just scary and tears people up.

 

In PvE I've found slightly more balanced stats work out better because the diminishing returns start kicking in really badly after the 34%-35% unbuffed crit and the 80%-85% surge range so I actually try to keep Power = Crit = Surge give or take a little, power comes out slightly ahead naturally due to the way the gear is setup. I'm currently targetting 32% crit unbuffed, 82%-85% surge and all the rest in power with 100% acc.

 

Remember you can buy Eliminator pieces and throw mods from Combat Medic or Combat Tech pieces into it if you are unhappy with your stat balance along with using other Implants and Earpieces to get the #s you want.

 

I am also very adamant that Alacrity is a totally useless stat for us as reducing the GCD has very little use when so many of our procs are time based (3 seconds, 6 seconds minimum) and we are limited almost completely by heat not by GCD. Crit is a much better burst solution there because it affects all abilities where Alacrity does not appear to reduce the GCD for non cast time abilities and channeled abilities (strange but thats how it tests) and because it will improve your heat usage at the same time whereas Alacrity makes it worse.

 

I'm honestly almost tempted to pull the points out of 4% alacrity and grab 2% endurance or something because even a single point of alacrity seems to make our timing with our procs aloof if we are critting alot.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Lightmgl

[Ewert]

I am also very adamant that Alacrity is a totally useless stat for us as reducing the GCD has very little use when so many of our procs are time based (3 seconds, 6 seconds minimum) and we are limited almost completely by heat not by GCD. Crit is a much better burst solution there because it affects all abilities where Alacrity does not appear to reduce the GCD for non cast time abilities and channeled abilities (strange but thats how it tests) and because it will improve your heat usage at the same time whereas Alacrity makes it worse.

 

I'm honestly almost tempted to pull the points out of 4% alacrity and grab 2% endurance or something because even a single point of alacrity seems to make our timing with our procs aloof if we are critting alot.

If you are constantly heat restricted and you have long fights with no need for bursts, sure, alacrity isn't that useful. Then again that situation is happening usually only in non-brainer situations where you can mostly mash your face on the keyboard and "win".

 

We have two fields of battle, end-game pve and pvp. In pvp, burst is king, period. Last boss at eternity vault for example needs dps burst, also having the option to burst fast helps for initial adds etc. with vent available, definitely not useless stat.

 

All healing is usually bursty in nature, and there also alacrity is very useful. In fact as a player of healing classes for nearly two decades now, if you don't have crit based procs up the wazoo then crits in heals are usually low priority stat (due to overhealing, unreliableness, etc.).

 

Flamethrower seems bugged as that skill doesn't get alacrity, but death from above is a channel and is hasteable, so for merc arsenal and merc bodyguard alacrity is definitely a high burst stat. How much you value burst in exchange of "theoretical maximum constant dps" is another issue. Burst gets results in pvp, theoretical maximum tends to just bloat opposing side heal stats or get your teammates killed from dps bursts overpowering your healing ability.

[ChosenoftheRaven]

Alacrity would still allow you to cast more abilities, let's not forget you have a free one (Rapid Shots) and being able to get an extra ability in every minute, or even two extra, is still more DPS or healing. Especially if the hard caps on crit/surge are correct. In that case especially, knowing your limit for crit/surge and then stacking power/alacrity (alacrity secondary to power, of course) would be the way to go instead of pushing more and more of the maxed out stats and giving yourself useless stat points.

[Spoonster]

L2 do your priority rotations properly, stop relying on rng crits for added heat venting and burst procs, profit from all that power on the gear. Ya know power, the stat that is borderline better then aim, str, cun, or will.

 

There's a reason that power is the main difference between end game pvp gear and end game pve gear. Other then expertise of course.

 

Don't believe me? Stack power and ask your tanks how well they're holding threat.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Spoonster

[Yazule]

L2 do your priority rotations properly, stop relying on rng crits for added heat venting and burst procs, profit from all that power on the gear. Ya know power, the stat that is borderline better then aim, str, cun, or will.

 

There's a reason that power is the main difference between end game pvp gear and end game pve gear. Other then expertise of course.

 

you meant learn to do priority rotations the way YOU do, not properly, there is nothing wrong with being crit based for burst dps and good venting

 

personal opinion on why it is all power in pvp gear is so you have to get more pieces from another set to pull out the mods you want and mix and match, meaning you have to play longer to get the gear the way you want it... a time sink, from a game owners point of view keeping you buisy is the most important thing, because as soon as you are not buisy you are bored and looking for another game.

 

both power and crit builds will work, the crit build is just "taking your chances" you can be a hero or a zero based on a dice roll.

 

with the 2 set piece i am at 50% crits with TM and unload, meaning that 50% of 80% of my damage is at 175% crit modifier, which is a 70% increase in damage overall

[Spoonster]

Ok let me put it a different way to maximize a dps priority rotation in damage done over a sustained time period, i.e boss fights and such, power is above and beyond better then crit,surge, and alacrity.

 

Has nothing to do with which way you choose to do that rotation, in the end power gets you more damage done.

 

Also of note is, it's not 50% of 80% of your damage done, it's a chance that 80% of your damage done is increase by your surge amount and that chance is 50%, but it still can mean 0% recieved a surge bonus becuz you just didn't crit. rng is rng, there's a reason crit has been a mediocre stat across almost all classes of all mmos.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Spoonster

[Yazule]

Ok let me put it a different way to maximize a dps priority rotation in damage done over a sustained time period, i.e boss fights and such, power is above and beyond better then crit,surge, and alacrity.

 

Has nothing to do with which way you choose to do that rotation, in the end power gets you more damage done.

 

 

how you can say that without a parser is beyond me, i will wait for a combat log to make those kinds of statements.

[Spoonster]

grab gear with different stats on them go out and attack the same mobs over and over with different setups, you'll get to see how effective each stat is. It takes time but it's all we can do right now, and in my experience and everyone else i know that has done the same with gear tests. Power is coming out so good it's almost better then your primary stat.

 

I.E in one of the gear tests i gave up 8 aim to gain 10 power, in that switch all the damage of every ability i have went up, that's how close power is to being as good as your primary stat. And I'm not talking killing 1-3 mobs, I'm talking killing 100s of them to get a good feel for how the stats work.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Spoonster

[Yazule]

grab gear with different stats on them go out and attack the same mobs over and over with different setups, you'll get to see how effective each stat is. It takes time but it's all we can do right now, and in my experience and everyone else i know that has done the same with gear tests. Power is coming out so good it's almost better then your primary stat.

 

I.E in one of the gear tests i gave up 8 aim to gain 10 power, in that switch all the damage of every ability i have went up, that's how close power is to being as good as your primary stat. And I'm not talking killing 1-3 mobs, I'm talking killing 100s of them to get a good feel for how the stats work.

 

i have changed out gear to test on mobs and friends, without a log impossible to be accurate, but power brings up the average, but crit/surge bring up the burst, with a good rotation to control heat when bursting i find it to be pretty much a wash for pve, for pvp i think burst rules the day just because of people using LOS etc to avoid continuous damage.

 

will defeninitely be looking at it critically when the patch comes out with a combat log.

[Spoonster]

Ah, yea I certainly would agree that for pvp a heavy crit/surge build will serve you better in that environment.

[Revelationjp]

When did it suddenly become gospel that crit/surge beats power? I ran with each and seemed to do much better with stacked power. In groups I'm constantly pulling the aggro from the tanks because i'm out dps'ing them too much. It's hard to tell for sure without hard numbers available, but I wasn't aware that the National Mercenary Board had declared crit/surge > Power.

[Yazule]

When did it suddenly become gospel that crit/surge beats power? I ran with each and seemed to do much better with stacked power. In groups I'm constantly pulling the aggro from the tanks because i'm out dps'ing them too much. It's hard to tell for sure without hard numbers available, but I wasn't aware that the National Mercenary Board had declared crit/surge > Power.

 

 

if you didnt read my post, crit/surge = burst which is king in pvp... as far as average dps it might be a wash or even slightly better for power, but it isnt enough advantage to hamstring your pvp fights.

 

i only have like 180 power currently and I can pull agro off the tanks in any single target OR aoe fight in pve too.

 

crit/surge til 30%/85% then start stacking power is my opinion

 

personally i go for 35% crit but the math everyone is theorycrafting calls out a soft cap at 30%

[Revelationjp]

if you didnt read my post, crit/surge = burst which is king in pvp... as far as average dps it might be a wash or even slightly better for power, but it isnt enough advantage to hamstring your pvp fights.

 

i only have like 180 power currently and I can pull agro off the tanks in any single target OR aoe fight in pve too.

 

crit/surge til 30%/85% then start stacking power is my opinion

 

personally i go for 35% crit but the math everyone is theorycrafting calls out a soft cap at 30%

 

I see what you're saying here. Again, with no hard numbers available, it's hard to nail down, but on paper,(for me at least) my average DPS is aprx 5-10% higher stacking power over crit. I'm not following you on your burst damage argument though. Of course crit is going to give higher burst damage, but why is that good if you can't target it? If you're just saying that random huge bursts are what you want, why is that? It just seems to me that reliably higher output with every attack beats out random huge bursts. I know that sometimes that huge burst is the difference between winning and losing, but if it's random (for lack of a better term) you're hoping luck steps in and wins your battle? If my average DPS = yours, for instance, why would you prefer yours in bursts rather than in reliable output? I'm not flaming, truely trying to understand.

[Yazule]

I see what you're saying here. Again, with no hard numbers available, it's hard to nail down, but on paper,(for me at least) my average DPS is aprx 5-10% higher stacking power over crit. I'm not following you on your burst damage argument though. Of course crit is going to give higher burst damage, but why is that good if you can't target it? If you're just saying that random huge bursts are what you want, why is that? It just seems to me that reliably higher output with every attack beats out random huge bursts. I know that sometimes that huge burst is the difference between winning and losing, but if it's random (for lack of a better term) you're hoping luck steps in and wins your battle? If my average DPS = yours, for instance, why would you prefer yours in bursts rather than in reliable output? I'm not flaming, truely trying to understand.

 

better players will use los and stuns which kill our dps no matter what. So when you get off 2 tracers and then stack ED/tracer/HS/unload (in that order and quickly) the crits are enough to take out most anyone, i love it when they run around the corner to break unload and the ED/tracer/HS hit them anyway because they were cast before LOS was broken.

 

I definitely dont beleive it is 10%, doubt it is 5% but hard to say without a parse or combat log with time stamps.

 

Once we have more data i will adapt to the numbers but from where i stand i get around 50% crit on my tm and unload with 38% on everything else with a 1.78 multiplier, it is some serious damage... because those are my two primary attacks... lets say 80% if i can "turret" then (.5+.5*1.78)*.8+(.62+.38*1.78)*.2 is 1.37 so i am adding 37% to my dps from crits

Edited January 18, 2012 by Yazule

[Revelationjp]

better players will use los and stuns which kill our dps no matter what. So when you get off 2 tracers and then stack ED/tracer/HS/unload (in that order and quickly) the crits are enough to take out most anyone, i love it when they run around the corner to break unload and the ED/tracer/HS hit them anyway because they were cast before LOS was broken.

 

I definitely dont beleive it is 10%, doubt it is 5% but hard to say without a parse or combat log with time stamps.

 

Once we have more data i will adapt to the numbers but from where i stand i get around 50% crit on my tm and unload with 38% on everything else with a 1.78 multiplier, it is some serious damage... because those are my two primary attacks... lets say 80% if i can "turret" then (.5+.5*1.78)*.8+(.62+.38*1.78)*.2 is 1.37 so i am adding 37% to my dps from crits

I'm looking forward to having some sort of log in order to get the math 100%. As I said, on paper, it looks like 5-10% for me, i'm at work and can't duplicate my math here, but I will when I get home. There are so many variables that it's difficult to know for sure right now anyway. But i'm starting to see what you're getting at. As it stands, I've run with both stacked crit and with power, and my IG results were enough for me to go power.

[Yazule]

I'm looking forward to having some sort of log in order to get the math 100%. As I said, on paper, it looks like 5-10% for me, i'm at work and can't duplicate my math here, but I will when I get home. There are so many variables that it's difficult to know for sure right now anyway. But i'm starting to see what you're getting at. As it stands, I've run with both stacked crit and with power, and my IG results were enough for me to go power.

 

while i believe in my theorycrafting it is based on unrecorded emperical data and i too look forward to having some data to crunch.

 

when you crunch the numbers do you put power before or after crits? because from what i gather here on the boards it is post crit damage addition.

 

 

I also know that different skills alter power in different ways based on casting time and damage but i have no idea how to figure that out.

 

add in diminishing returns and soft/hard caps there is definitely some power that should be in the equation, due to my build with crit venting heat (allowing more dps over time) and bursting i like the feel of what i have now, but for pve overall dps rules, i will just end up with two sets of gear (already do tbh because of the expertice being so powerfull in pvp and useless in pve)

 

good stuff man