Remove the cooldown from Sundering Strike

[Khremlin]

I'd suggest changing the talent from applying an additional sunder to reducing the cd. Make a world of difference in PVP focus gen choice, help all specs reduce they key-bind-bloat, and I doubt tanking you would notice the difference.

 

But the sad truth is, I'd miss the strike animation as the "auto-attack' cinematic 'filler' - and I'm betting thats why it's still the way it is.

 

Shame strike can't be talented to do something dps oriented (ie more damage) so I could choose when I wanted to sunder strike (pvp/dps) and not feel like I was either wasting dps moments with strike or pushing hard at carpal tunnel trying to maximize usage of both.

 

The short comparison I'll make is I play a guardian@50 and a vanguard@35 so far, and I actually went out and bought the razor naga to play the guardian effectively. (pvp targeting teammates for leaps and escapes much more so than tanking tbh) - on the vanguard the new mouse feels pretty silly.

[SephiusUK]

I'd rather they talent strike to have sunder's effect.

That would be awesome. Strike animations look awesome, why waste em!

[Zarthorn]

That's fine. So make it only 2% per stack and have it stack up to 10 times if the concern is that it puts too much of a debuff too quickly.

 

If it was a concern they wouldn't had added an extra sunder stack mastery or added a mastery to allow you to apply sunders from saber throw.

 

I second, third, etc the need for Sundering strike to lose it's cooldown, had to drop Slash off my hotbar simply because I need both Sundering and Strike in my rotation.

[Felaed]

I second, third, etc the need for Sundering strike to lose it's cooldown, had to drop Slash off my hotbar simply because I need both Sundering and Strike in my rotation.

 

If you're not Slashing, but need to Strike, you're doing it wrong.

 

Just sayin.

[Zarthorn]

If you're not Slashing, but need to Strike, you're doing it wrong.

 

Just sayin.

 

Not sure if troll or serious.

 

Force Sweep > Slash and with all my focus abilties, I never ever have to use it, here's what I have:

 

Force Exhaustion

Force Sweep

Blade Storm

Riposte

Zealous Leap

Despatch

Freezing Force (although I'm actually considering ditching this and putting slash back on since Freezing Force is so notoriously unreliable)

 

When those are on cooldown or lack of focus:

 

Force Push

Force Stasis

Master Strike

Saber Throw

Force Leap

Sunder Armor

Strike

Combat Focus

 

Rotation:

 

Saber Throw > Force Leap > Force Exhaustion > Sunder Armor > Force Sweep > Blade Storm > Force Stasis > Zealous leap > Sunder Armor > Combat Focus > Force Sweep > Blade storm > Force Push > Saber Throw > Force Leap > Force Exhaustion, etc.

 

Obviously I throw in Despatch when a target drops below 20% and Strike is there when I'm running on dregs of Focus with both Sunder armor and Combat Focus on cooldown.

 

Sunder is there mainly to keep my focus topped off and refreshing the sunder stacks, my Saber throw also applies Sunder stacks.

[smackphat]

That would be awesome. Strike animations look awesome, why waste em!

 

Exactly.

[Hulkster]

The problem isn't keeping Sunder up. the problem is by having a cool-down on Sundering Strike you need to keep YET ANOTHER ability on your action bars (strike).

[dougan]

I thank he is saying the rotation is bloated and he is right

im using about 7 or 8 buttons on a rotation

 

Strike shouldn't be in your rotation. I keep Strike on my bar as a "****, I messed up my rotation and need a quick focus pip" ability.

[Naselus]

So here's how the rotation usually goes for me at level 38 on a single gold mob.

 

Yeah... once you get to 45+, you have a ton of extra abilties to add to that. At level 38, you haven't even got the 31-point talent yet, and might even not have picked up Backhand yet. I'm using a SW, so I don't know the JK names, but the principal is more or less the same.

 

Simple fact is, by 50 we have 10 or 11 buttons in our TPS rotation. You're using Scream, Smash, Retaliation, Sunder and Crushing blow as often as possible. Then you're also using Backhand, Invincible, Saber ward, Choke, Enrage, and Push when they're off c/d as well. AND you then have all the situationals - pommel strike, savage kick, viscious throw.

 

And in all of this, we have 3 abilities that are actually spammable - Vicious Strike, Sweeping Strike and Assault. 2 of which cost 3 Rage/focus a shot.

 

Everything else is on c/ds, but wildly variable c/ds which are then altered by skill points to make them even more muddled up. At 38, I felt pretty much OK with the number of abilties, but now I've run out of hotbar spaces on both of the bottom-screen bars.

 

I don't think Sunder should be c/d-free automatically, I think it should be talented to it; but really, it makes sense for it to become the basic nuke for tanks. And a lot of the other talents could do with specializing as well - 11 abilities get improved by the Immortal/Defense tree, but nothing gets improved more than 3 times (twice, if you ignore the silly level 1 talent which makes Charge proc a Scream cost reduction). We're being forced to use an 11-button DPS rotation to avoid wating talents; if your basic rotation requires more buttons than there are number keys, then there's a design issue. Particularly because late-game ellites require you to be using all the abilities properly to bring them down.

 

Just to give you an example, at level 50 here's how the average fight goes:

 

Enrage -> saber throw -> Charge -> Kick - > Scream - > Smash -> Sunder - > Assault -> Backhand -> Pommel Strike -> Crushing Blow -> Sunder - > Choke -> VS -> Assault -> Sunder - > Scream -> Smash -> VS-> Sunder ->.......

 

This is further complicated by different mods being effected by different things - so elites can't be pommeled or kicked, meaning I need to work out a whole new rotation. I'm also spamming Retaliate whenever I can, Enrage whenever I can, SW whenever I can, and remembering to use Vicious Throw when the enemy goes below 20% health.

 

I'd much rather replace, say, Push with halving the cooldown on Choke; replace Invincible with a halved c/d on Sabre Ward; turn Assault into Sundering Assault via talents, and merge Kick and Pommel Strike together completely.

 

After level 45 or so, we have so many abilities on so many different c/ds which all need to be used to maintain debuffs/buffs and keep rage management working properly tha any concept of a 'rotation' disolves completely, or else takes so long to actually form a repeating pattern that it's over 5 minutes long - longer than most fights. THAT is why Sunder should be turned into a spammable ability, either as a base or through talents, and THAT is why the class needs work.

 

 

As a little disclaimer, before I get bombarded with 'QQ more learn2play noob' comments; I enjoy playing my class I don't think we need a DPS or survivability buff; I do manage to keep up with my abilities, even though I'm using about 18 in every fight; I don't think we need more CC, more snares, more mobility or any of the other popular demands on the jugg/guardian forums; and I'm not advocating the reduction of every class in the game into a WoW-style 1 button faceroller - but there's a point where 'complex DPS cycle' becomes 'absurd mess'. And we've kinda passed that point, I think.

[Aaediyen]

There are way too many abilities to manage as a guardian. And thats a really bad thing to throw at a tank. It's seriously like trying to talk on the phone and drive at the same time. It's not about keeping sunder on it's about poor tank class design. All these abilities is fine for a sentinel or some other dps class, but a tank has to look at the fight not his ability bar constantly.

 

I've actually taken strike and slash off my bar and use sundering strike as a filler and everything else in the mean time. Everything else includes guardian slash, master strike, hilt strike, sweep, blade storm, push and stasis. With all these, I can keep a pretty tight rotation on a gold or platinum mob but I'm constantly looking at my bars instead of what is going on in the fight. Feels like I'm trying to drive a tractor from 1920.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Aaediyen

[Naselus]

It's the number of abilities which fulfill more or less the same function, but are on long cooldowns which is the real issues, imo. Saber ward and Invincible are fairly synonymous - damage reduction buffs on 3-minute c/ds. Sure, I can currently pop both together, but I'd sooner sacrifice one and have a half-length c/d on the other, frankly. Likewise choke (once talented to remove the channel) and backhand and push - all pretty much the same damaging-stuns, yet needlessly broken into three extremely similar abilities rather than one ability that can be used every 15-20 seconds. Or Kick and Pommel Strike. Or even Assault and Sunder.

[Tundara]

The analogy about talking on the phone while driving is fairly apt. There is simply so many abilities to keep track of, to say nothing of adding Biochem stims and relic timers into the mix, that I spend the vast magority of a fight shifting my gaze from timer bars rather than what's happening on the field.

 

The buff Guardians and Juggs need isn't in the damage or ability to tank, it's in streamlining. Invariably streamlining the class will be a buff to most players as they'll now be able to get more out of the class.

 

Streamlining aside what we could also do with is an identity beyond 'Generic Melee Tank'. I'd like to see retributive damage abilities and procs. Riposte being a passive for instance with talents in the Tanking and Vigilance tree to make it proc more often or for more damage respectively. Though I also consider that change to be streamlining as well.

 

=. .=

[Terin]

The analogy about talking on the phone while driving is fairly apt. There is simply so many abilities to keep track of, to say nothing of adding Biochem stims and relic timers into the mix, that I spend the vast magority of a fight shifting my gaze from timer bars rather than what's happening on the field.

 

The buff Guardians and Juggs need isn't in the damage or ability to tank, it's in streamlining. Invariably streamlining the class will be a buff to most players as they'll now be able to get more out of the class.

 

Streamlining aside what we could also do with is an identity beyond 'Generic Melee Tank'. I'd like to see retributive damage abilities and procs. Riposte being a passive for instance with talents in the Tanking and Vigilance tree to make it proc more often or for more damage respectively. Though I also consider that change to be streamlining as well.

 

=. .=

 

Exactly! It's not that I'm trying to make Guardians into unstoppable juggernauts or anything, but we clearly have to many primary skills.

 

Generally speaking, if I have more than 5 primary skills (that is, abilities I use regularly, with no regard for cooldown or sitation), then I feel that character's skill-set is bloated. With the Guardian, I'm having to fumble around with about 8 primary skills, and Strike seems the one that could (and should) most easily be done away with.

 

I really like the idea of Riposte being changed into a passive counter-attack, as well. It's off the GCD anyways, so perhaps there would be a way to simply "toggle' it on or off?

[Tundara]

I don't think we need to loose strike. If it is the ability I think it is (my gaming rig is dead as dead can be and I've been unable to log in for about a week now) then the animation, while a bit long is good at giving a visual active feel.

 

We need to cut the fat from the class. Specs too. I use Vigilance spec (I know, if I really want to do damage I should be focus) and at level 50 I have 3 'big' focus dumps. Then there is Dispatch which I end up spamming. I don't ave Slash on my hotbar and have not up-graded it for some time, much like Pommel Strike or Opertune Strike. It's a bit of a shame that class abilities are just being ignored because they are not worth the GCD or hotbar space.

 

=. .=

[stocean]

I like the little bit of diversity in our basic filler attacks. Right now you need to time the CD to benefit the most from them. Not to mention the different animation. Removing the CD will just make it even easier.

[Pwentt]

I like the little bit of diversity in our basic filler attacks. Right now you need to time the CD to benefit the most from them. Not to mention the different animation. Removing the CD will just make it even easier.

 

That's the point of the thread. Currently for the average player there is way too many cooldowns to keep regular track of. I've done high end arms warrior pvp/raid tanking in wow, feral raid dps, and frost mage pvp. Those are all considered fairly complex rotations and heavy resource management. I'm currently 36 def spec guardian and it's already a more complicated rotation than anything I've played before. It's certainly more complicated than any other classes in this game.

 

We really shouldn't need to keep track of 8-10 abilities + 5-6 situational ones as well.

[stocean]

That's the point of the thread. Currently for the average player there is way too many cooldowns to keep regular track of. I've done high end arms warrior pvp/raid tanking in wow, feral raid dps, and frost mage pvp. Those are all considered fairly complex rotations and heavy resource management. I'm currently 36 def spec guardian and it's already a more complicated rotation than anything I've played before. It's certainly more complicated than any other classes in this game.

 

We really shouldn't need to keep track of 8-10 abilities + 5-6 situational ones as well.

 

And that was my point of the post. I can't agree Guardian is more complex than other classes. I find Guardian play to be boring as it is, in fact. Yes, holding aggro is much harder but that's because most tanks try to hold every mob on him just like in WoW, not because the rotation itself is complicated. I've played WoW since classic beta and let's be honest.. WoW tanking has been easy mode since WotLK due to all the whinings. I'm definitely supporting the BW's decision to make a difference between a good tank player and an intermediate tank.

[MimicUnleashed]

your 31 point talent adds 3 stacks, seriously are you guys having that much trouble keeping sunder on, what else are you doing with your rotation that you cant keep it up?

 

My 31 point talent adds a dot, not 3 sunder stacks. I also need those sunder stacks to do damage worth a crud even in flashpoints. But the raw damage increase once you move up to Sunder is absolutely great. It would make me feel less like I was tickling someone, that's for sure.