Selecting Need for your companion

[Damon_Mott]

I ran into this the other day running through a flash point.

 

I selected Need for my companion. Someone got really mad at me for doing that.

I explained that I use my companion 90% of the time outside of groups and one way of getting decent gear is through flashpoints. Getting gear through questing is only ok gear. I am not about to buy gear all the time. I have a sorc and my companion is a tank. I use my tank a lot.

 

Am I wrong on selected Need for my companion?

 

I would like to get peoples opinion on this since this game I think is a little different then other games since we have companions.

 

My argument is since I use my companion 90% soloing, I feel as my companion and me are treated as 1.

 

If you selected NEED for a companion I would give you the boot in my party, just saying. That said, I normally go over the loot rules before the flashpoint starts and make it clear that:

 

1. All items are to be rolled as GREED or PASS unless it is an upgrade for YOU, NOT your companion.

 

Gearing your companion should come out of your own pocket of credits or quest line drops/commendations. In fact I use flashpoints drops to gear myself and use the commendations I get from said flashpoints to gear my companion. That said, all my commendations are used to gear my companion, it's what they are for, use them.

[evil-bob]

You really should.

I don't know if I agree with that, but...

 

That's how society works.

This is true.

 

It's not always or even often the majority that determines the rules, however.

 

(In fact, it's really rarely the case...)

Edited January 6, 2012 by evil-bob

[daemian]

If people in your groups don't want you to roll need for companions when they need the loot for their actual characters, don't play in those groups.

 

That makes perfect sense. Nobody's forcing anyone to group with anyone else here. It's clear people aren't going to stop doing it, and it's not clear to me who is the majority in this argument, but this can all be solved by just asking if companion looting is ok before you group.

[Lostpenguins]

No, you are just trying to enforce a social construct on them that you invented and attempting to shame others into following what you believe to be correct. It is impossible for you to prove that there is a right way and a wrong way to roll on loot. The only thing that can be proven is that you can either roll need or greed.

 

It's interesting from a sociological perspective, though, to watch people attempt to enforce social constructs on others in a video game medium. Because they have no physical recourse, threats and bullying are used to attempt to get others to adhere to their socially contrived "norm."

 

I didn't invent it. It's been around longer than I've been playing MMO's... there's even a definition posted on wowwiki.

 

Is it "the law"? No. But that's what social constructs are all about. Seriously, there's no law that says you can't use your cell phone. The movie will ask you not to, but there's no law against it, but don't be surprised when they kick you out of the theatre or your friends stop asking you to go to the movies with them.

 

That's a social construct that you may not like to follow, but it exists. You might want to have a mohawk while you run from president of the united states, but you're not going to win. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And just because someone isn't within physical reach and there's a certain level of anonymity in regards to computers doesn't mean you're not existing in a certain level of social medium.

 

I'm surprised you're high-handed intellect can't grasp that concept...

[evil-bob]

this can all be solved by just asking if companion looting is ok before you group.

Yup. Maybe we should make a count of how many times this has been suggested so far in this thread?

[Damon_Mott]

They really should just add a "Need for Companion" button.

 

But another option is to just solo a low level Heroic-4 or Flashpoint and grab orange gear from there, and slot it for level appropriate stats.

 

That's actually an excellent idea. That button would override GREED but not override NEED.

 

An even better idea would to make player gear unequippable by companions and have companion specific gear. They already have that kind of gear given as quest rewards.

[DeathDiciple]

If there is a real player in said FP that needs/uses that item himself it is wrong imo and i'm sticking to it. Player toon beats npc pet no matter what. If you really wanted the thing for your companion however, either wait for everyone to roll and see if noone rolls need (among the chars that fit the requirements), or simply ask.

 

Soloing (easy) content is not an excuse to turn down a real player, he contributed to said flashpoint. Or turn your question around really, would you put best gear on your companion if it would be better used for your own toon? Then you get the answer yourself.

[evil-bob]

I didn't invent it. It's been around longer than I've been playing MMO's... there's even a definition posted on wowwiki.

 

Is it "the law"? No. But that's what social constructs are all about. Seriously, there's no law that says you can't use your cell phone. The movie will ask you not to, but there's no law against it, but don't be surprised when they kick you out of the theatre or your friends stop asking you to go to the movies with them.

 

That's a social construct that you may not like to follow, but it exists. You might want to have a mohawk while you run from president of the united states, but you're not going to win. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And just because someone isn't within physical reach and there's a certain level of anonymity in regards to computers doesn't mean you're not existing in a certain level of social medium.

 

I'm surprised you're high-handed intellect can't grasp that concept...

I'm surprised you resorted to insults to prove your points (which are all strawmen, sorry - although you are right that social norms are applied in all walks of life, which is I think what you were saying). But to be fair, I did not mean to imply that you, personally, came up with this idea all by yourself for the first time, ever. I meant that you, personally, have this idea which you believe in, and that others might not.

[profaneascension]

It's equally interesting that somehow I am now personally involved in this: a "side" was assigned to me, even though I've stated no preference (and repeatedly have said "check with the group before rolling"), and now social pressure is attempted to be applied to me to correct my opinion (that I don't have). (Unless you meant "you" as in "someone" - in which case, nevermind.)

 

My apologies, I should have clarified that I was using "you" in a general sense.

 

And for the record, ostracizing someone for not adhering to a standard you believe in is not quite the definition of bullying, but it's certainly within its purview. And I sincerely doubt you can prove anything along the lines of a claim that your social construct is more popular than another one.

 

Any proof I provide would not be scientific, but a quick glance through similar threads in the last couple of days gives me a good idea, not to mention my actual MMO experience over the last decade or so. Primary needs have always come before off-spec needs.

 

Furthermore, I would be more than willing to reveal the names of my characters and the servers on which I play, and happily proclaim that I would never roll Need on an item for my companions if someone in my group can can use it on their character. Are the companion-need rollers willing to do the same?

[Lostpenguins]

That's actually an excellent idea. That button would override GREED but not override NEED.

 

An even better idea would to make player gear unequippable by companions and have companion specific gear. They already have that kind of gear given as quest rewards.

 

While I like the idea of a 3rd button for Need for Companion... I don't like companion-only gear. That would make those drops frivolous if they superseded a drop that mains could use. If it was an add'l bonus drop, then it would be okay. However, I don't want the Columni token pieces to not drop because the loot table pulled up Companion loot instead.

 

This is the best solution, but that doesn't resolve all of the "self-entitled" people who will be rolling need on items because their companion needs it over my toon. Thankfully these people are few and far between as I cannot remember the last time I ever saw such a person in a group I've ran in (yay for Guildies).

[ChicksDigHarleys]

Wait...you can't roll need on gear you can't use in Ops? This makes the ability to do so in FPs even more mind boggling. How hard would it be to make FPs the same way?

[louisfriend]

they're gonna need to address this sooner or later or PUG groups are gonna suffer.

 

while some suggest the "companion only" loot option. as a way to isolate flashpoint gear from the equation (ie...all flashpoint loot is player only. quest/world loot is all/companion compatible) this would inhibit guild/tight knit groups who can reasonably consent to need rolls for alts/companions.

 

the problem is ...the argument is sound either way. a squishy or ranged based class will use a tank pet a great deal... same as a melee/tank player will utilize a healing pet or something alot.

 

that being said. rolling need for a pet over an active need for a player in a group is pretty low.

 

 

in my opinion... the best case scenario. is to watch to see who rolls what. if a player played class greeds on an item. and it greeds around. ask in chat if anyone minds if you need for a prime pet.

 

that would get a much better response than just arbitrarily needing for pets.

 

 

me personally. if someone need rolled on an item i actually needed. for a companion. i'd drop the group. As i run flashpoints for my character's gear.

 

also. if you need to run flashpoints ...looking for companion gear. why not make your own group. mentioning your intent to the people who join.

 

being open. and honest is always better than... just doing something, that's pretty shady and then trying some weaksauce justification for it later.

[DeathDiciple]

That's actually an excellent idea. That button would override GREED but not override NEED.

 

An even better idea would to make player gear unequippable by companions and have companion specific gear. They already have that kind of gear given as quest rewards.

 

Umm I do like being able to use orange gear i'm no longer using (for whichever reason) or items I got from those on companions after I don't need them anymore. Since bound to me means i can still use them for companions. So I'd rather not have such restriction in place.

 

But I guess it does not matter all that much, as long there exist crafting gear without restrictions (is it possible to get fully orange gear through crafting that does not have restrictions making it unequippable to companions? I did not gather enough schematics to judge).

[Lostpenguins]

I'm surprised you resorted to insults to prove your points (which are all strawmen, sorry - although you are right that social norms are applied in all walks of life, which is I think what you were saying). But to be fair, I did not mean to imply that you, personally, came up with this idea all by yourself for the first time, ever. I meant that you, personally, have this idea which you believe in, and that others might not.

 

It's interesting from a sociological perspective, though, to watch people attempt to enforce social constructs on others in a video game medium. Because they have no physical recourse, threats and bullying are used to attempt to get others to adhere to their socially contrived "norm."

 

Insulting me directly or trying to go a roundabout way to insult people in a general sense is still insulting nonetheless. Don't act like you're better than what you're trying to condemn now.

 

It doesn't matter if others might not. It's pretty obvious from experience in this world that you'll never get everyone to agree an idea... you can only hope for a majority. With that being said, it matters far less what an individual thinks if their view is in the minority. Right or wrong, doesn't matter. You will get ostracized if you do not follow along with said social constructs.

 

I'm just telling you that if you want to roll need on everything because you don't want to go long with the majority, feel free to. I personally will never group with such a person again if they do it to me and I have a funny feeling the same will end up happening to that person from multiple groups. And since there is no LFD I wouldn't find it surprising if that person started to get blacklisted from the majority.

 

And for those people now blacklisted, don't go crying... you've been warned.

[DeathDiciple]

they're gonna need to address this sooner or later or PUG groups are gonna suffer.

 

They can never address it in such a way to avoid PUGs being PUGs. You'll always have people that will loot rare gear to spite you and to run to vendor and sell it. It's the nature of human beings in anonymous environment.

[evil-bob]

My apologies, I should have clarified that I was using "you" in a general sense.

No problem, sorry I misinterpreted.

 

I still don't think you can prove that one social construct is the majority, even with mountains of anecdotal evidence. The problem is that the forums are hardly representative of the playerbase. That said, just because something is the majority hardly makes it right. (And none of this is really relevant, anyway.)

[daemian]

Insulting me directly or trying to go a roundabout way to insult people in a general sense is still insulting nonetheless. Don't act like you're better than what you're trying to condemn now.

 

It doesn't matter if others might not. It's pretty obvious from experience in this world that you'll never get everyone to agree an idea... you can only hope for a majority. With that being said, it matters far less what an individual thinks if their view is in the minority. Right or wrong, doesn't matter. You will get ostracized if you do not follow along with said social constructs.

 

I'm just telling you that if you want to roll need on everything because you don't want to go long with the majority, feel free to. I personally will never group with such a person again if they do it to me and I have a funny feeling the same will end up happening to that person from multiple groups. And since there is no LFD I wouldn't find it surprising if that person started to get blacklisted from the majority.

 

And for those people now blacklisted, don't go crying... you've been warned.

 

Are you sure your side is the majority? What if it's not, would you still go along with the majority?

[Vitellius]

No longer viable? Just talk about it with your groupmates. If you don't agree find other participants who will. How hard is that?

 

Don't ask me. Some people find it hard, some don't. That's not my point. Just throwing it out there. At the very least, "let the game decide" could be a loot option. Then, if the group decides, there will be no worries.

 

Nothing wrong with choice, but I guarantee most groups wouldn't have a problem with any system that increases fairness...especially pugs.

[evil-bob]

Insulting me directly or trying to go a roundabout way to insult people in a general sense is still insulting nonetheless. Don't act like you're better than what you're trying to condemn now.

If I've insulted you - which I didn't believe I did in the pieces you quoted - then I am honestly sorry.

 

It's pretty obvious from experience in this world that you'll never get everyone to agree an idea... you can only hope for a majority. With that being said, it matters far less what an individual thinks if their view is in the minority. Right or wrong, doesn't matter. You will get ostracized if you do not follow along with said social constructs.

A majority doesn't actually create social norms most of the time: it's usually a very small but very zealous minority. Either way, you can't prove a majority for your opinion. And even if you could, it wouldn't make it any more right or wrong.

 

And for those people now blacklisted, don't go crying... you've been warned.

If there was such a thing as an actual blacklist, that would certainly be a stronger step in the direction of enforcing a specific social norm. In the short term, especially with the lackluster guild options and oddities of general chat, there's just not much penalty to anyone disagreeing with a specific perspective other than being ignored by a few individuals.

[Yukondoit]

I just use my planetary commendations to buy my companion gear. It avoids these unsavory situations.

[daemian]

Of course social constructs are enforced in video games.

 

If you gave someone, lets say 500k credits of material to craft something for you and said thanks and left, you would say this is fine then?

 

If you need roll on everything, need roll for your companion, etc...............You WILL get a reputation in the game. There are always repurcusions.

 

Personally, I would rather get a good rep in the game so when a group needs 1 more for an operation, they would remember me and pick me over someone else.

 

If you don't care about your reputation in the game, that just says how you are in real life too.

 

Well, you can't please everyone. I'm not worried about the reputation I have among total idiots, for example.

 

RycheMykola, I'm not sure if it was you who reported me for this comment, but I assure you, it was meant neither to be rude or disrespectful towards you, and was meant as a sincere comment. I apologize if it wasn't you and just an overzealous forum mod who didn't understand the post.

Edited January 6, 2012 by daemian

[Airinya]

A majority doesn't actually create social norms most of the time: it's usually a very small but very zealous minority. Either way, you can't prove a majority for your opinion. And even if you could, it wouldn't make it any more right or wrong.

 

Can you provide an example of an informal norm that wasn't constructed by a societal majority?

[Lostpenguins]

Are you sure your side is the majority? What if it's not, would you still go along with the majority?

 

In every single group I've been in not one person has rolled need on an item to take for their companion over someone in the group who can use it. This includes PUG's and my guild in general.

 

Small sampling size to say it's a majority, but if the opposite were the majority, then I assumed I would have seen it by now.

 

For example, back in WoW, on Illidan everyone rolled need on BoE's. If someone really did need the item they would just ask for it. Why did they do it like that? No idea. It just became the social norm.

 

If people started rolling for need on everything, or at least in the sense that it's an upgrade for their companion then I would do the same. I wouldn't think it's the right way to do things, but, luckily I'm in the guild that pretty much has the same views for how to play this game.

[daemian]

In every single group I've been in not one person has rolled need on an item to take for their companion over someone in the group who can use it. This includes PUG's and my guild in general.

 

Small sampling size to say it's a majority, but if the opposite were the majority, then I assumed I would have seen it by now.

 

For example, back in WoW, on Illidan everyone rolled need on BoE's. If someone really did need the item they would just ask for it. Why did they do it like that? No idea. It just became the social norm.

 

If people started rolling for need on everything, or at least in the sense that it's an upgrade for their companion then I would do the same. I wouldn't think it's the right way to do things, but, luckily I'm in the guild that pretty much has the same views for how to play this game.

 

Well, that's a fair enough answer. And it goes along with what I've been saying, people are much better off grouping with other like-minded players when possible, and making sure of the rules when it's not possible.

[Lostpenguins]

A majority doesn't actually create social norms most of the time: it's usually a very small but very zealous minority. Either way, you can't prove a majority for your opinion. And even if you could, it wouldn't make it any more right or wrong.

 

What? Social norms are created by the majority. The aren't the "norm" until the majority accepts and embraces it. Sure, mainstream music didn't include rap 50 years ago, and it certainly didn't invent rap, but rap is now a social norm because mainstream embraced it.

 

Do you know why R&B music like B2M and Babyface isn't "the norm" anymore? It's because the majority dropped it.

 

This is totally off-topic from the point now, but I find your explanations for things extremely confusing and off...

 

However, you are right that I cannot prove that my viewpoint is the majority to you. There would need to be an in-game poll that would force people to take and then have said results displayed to prove who has the majority view. However, I'm inclined to believe that my viewpoint is more in the majority since I was able to link an actual reference that applied to my viewpoint.

 

You have simply kept repeating your beliefs in difference ways.