Selecting Need for your companion

[EternalFinality]

In the former scenario, you've got a blatant, obvious jerk. In the latter you've got an individual who was polite, but engaged in behavior that some players still find very distasteful, while others are fine with it because the player asked first, and still others would have been fine even if the SW hadn't asked.

 

There's a fatal flaw here though. The other party members who said it was "ok" had no vested interest in the piece of gear. The "companion outfitter" should obviously have gotten permission from ALL party members, not just a "majority."

 

That's just common sense.

 

To remove this issue, I would say we do away with Need Before Greed entirely, and go with Roll/Pass.

 

Making the roll system itself worse is NOT the solution.

 

Another solution that would allow Need Before Greed to remain, is to just tag all Flashpoint and Operation drops with class and/or alignment requirements.

 

A better solution but imperfect.

 

We should leave things as they are and let the players work it out. Otherwise you're just trying to build an idiot proof box, which everyone knows never work.

 

This isn't about arguments of whether a companion "requires" level-appropriate upgrades, or whether they can make do with quest rewards, world drops and commendation gear.

 

Of course it is - because it's the definition of what NEED is. Do you actually "Need" that item just because it is an upgrade to your companion? What some people haven't learned is the answer is no. Thinking that you "need" every single item that drops that is a statistical improvement for one of your companions is the definition of greed, which not coincidentally is what you should be rolling on those pieces.

 

Your companion doesn't need it, you will get plenty of gear on your own and from quests to more than adequately gear them such that you can solo the game.

 

Every single one of us is in group content to get upgrades and see the content. We aren't there to help other people get gear. We're there to help other people to the extent of downing a boss, but when the loot comes up, we're all there to get that loot if it's an upgrade for us.

 

If you really believe you're there to intentionally help someone else gain loot, more power to you. I think you're deluding yourself as to the motivations of your fellow party members. PUGs don't operate like guild or friend runs. You shouldn't assume they do.

 

Again, the definition of greed.

Edited January 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Zebular]

No, you are not wrong. Continue rolling how you like. Don't allow the greed of others to tell you that your companions do not need something because another player needs it more. You're not the greedy one, it the those who want it all for themselves and not other players characters (yes, my companions ARE my characters).

 

The only exception would be pre-defined looting terms agreed prior to going out. If no one discusses it prior, then roll how you like.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Zebular

[artilleryshell]

My position on this is that there is far too much blood and tears invested in this entire debate.

 

When we really get down to it, we are talking about low level flashpoints with gear you will mod out or level out of quickly.

 

 

Now, if this were hard mode 4 mans or operations, your guild should have a system for this, and if you don't like that system, find another guild.

[Eldren]

There's a fatal flaw here though. The other party members who said it was "ok" had no vested interest in the piece of gear. The "companion outfitter" should obviously have gotten permission from ALL party members, not just a "majority."

 

That's just common sense.

To you, perhaps. Where I come from, majority rules in cases where its decisions can be enforced. In situations where it can't be enforced (like group content in a video game), it doesn't rule, it just carries varying degrees of weight.

 

 

 

Making the roll system itself worse is NOT the solution.

I don't see that as a worse option. If you do, I'm fine with peaceably disagreeing with you. The existence of companions, and the reality of their upgrade needs, makes NBG inefficient at best. Much better at that point to simply go with Roll/Pass.

 

 

 

A better solution but imperfect.

 

We should leave things as they are and let the players work it out. Otherwise you're just trying to build an idiot proof box, which everyone knows never work.

In general, you're right. Einstein was famous for saying "Build a foolproof trap, and the world will bring forth a better quality of fool." This said, in the current paradigm you have players who are realizing the only equitable chance they have of getting upgrades for themselves and their companions (who all need upgrades as well) is to roll for everything that's useful to either them or their companions. There's no getting around it. The source of ire in threads like this is largely sourced in someone not liking that they lost a roll to another player whose class indicated they weren't going to use the item, so the assumption that it was going to a companion was made, and likely relevant unless it was a BOE they intended to put up on the GTN.

 

The thing is, since companions need upgrades, and the game assumes the presence of companions in constructing its leveling/difficulty arrangement, then those upgrades have to come from somewhere. Someone rolling Need for upgrades for a companion in a Flashpoint or Operation is simply availing themselves of all opportunities for upgrades that comes their way. Nothing wrong with it.

 

 

 

Of course it is - because it's the definition of what NEED is. Do you actually "Need" that item just because it is an upgrade to your companion? What some people haven't learned is the answer is no. Thinking that you "need" every single item that drops that is a statistical improvement for one of your companions is the definition of greed, which not coincidentally is what you should be rolling on those pieces.

 

Your companion doesn't need it, you will get plenty of gear on your own and from quests to more than adequately gear them such that you can solo the game.

 

 

 

Again, the definition of greed.

Do I need the item? "Need" in an MMO like this is defined as "Staking a claim to an item that's going to be used as an upgrade for your character." In this particular game, companions are part of your character: they're an additional set of slots that require periodic upgrades, just as your main character does. As a result, you're falling well into the game's definition of "Need" when you choose that option for an item that you plan to give to a companion. Every single item that drops that is a statistical improvement for one of my companions is equal to every single item that drops that is a statistical improvement for my character, as their performance synergizes with mine while I'm out questing.

 

So yes, my companion needs it. It doesn't matter if there are options available from quest rewards, GTN purchases, world drops or commendation gear. Those are all valid upgrade avenues. Likewise, however, so are Flashpoints and Operations. There's no reason other than wishing to avoid someone raging over a lost roll to intentionally limit your available upgrade options.

 

No player is in group content to help other players gear up. We're there to cooperate in downing bosses we can't down on our own so we have a shot at the quality of gear they drop. Once that cooperation has resulted in a dead boss, you can't cooperate further. If a lightsaber drops, and myself and another lightsaber user can both use it, I'm not going to forego it so they can have it, I'm going to stake a claim to it by rolling Need (unless it isn't an upgrade for me, but is for them; at that point, I'm more than happy to let them have it, unless it doesn't have class/alignment requirements and would also be an upgrade for a lightsaber-using companion of mine. At that point, I'm rolling Need again).

 

When the loot window comes up, every player is expected to stake a claim to items they want. Their motivations aren't open for discussion, nor are they open to approval or disapproval from other players. When the loot window comes up, you roll Need if, by your personal definitions, you Need it (even if that means you're planning on vendoring it; it's none of my business). If you don't Need it, and want to be nice, you roll Greed if you plan on vendoring it or putting it up on the GTN.

 

But companions are a set of upgrade slots attached to your character, and if you as a player want to upgrade them, you don't require anyone else's approval to do so by whatever available means of upgrade present themselves.

[Caramel_Ham]

I consider it extremely rude and disrespectful to need for a companion even if they took part of the group.

 

The companion is not a full time player nor is it even a real player.

 

How would you feel if you spent like an hour in a flashpoint and finally a really good upgrade for your class dropped. There also happened that no one in you group could use that item. So you are like "YES, I NEED THAT" but then some a hole also presses NEED for it, for his companion no less, and you lose the role? I would be extremely displeased and put said person on my blacklist.

 

Its happened before with my friend. He was new to MMO's and it was a low level orange drop so i didnt get pissed, but it definitely annoyed me at first.

[Eldren]

I consider it extremely rude and disrespectful to need for a companion even if they took part of the group.

 

The companion is not a full time player nor is it even a real player.

 

How would you feel if you spent like an hour in a flashpoint and finally a really good upgrade for your class dropped. There also happened that no one in you group could use that item. So you are like "YES, I NEED THAT" but then some a hole also presses NEED for it, for his companion no less, and you lose the role? I would be extremely displeased and put said person on my blacklist.

 

Its happened before with my friend. He was new to MMO's and it was a low level orange drop so i didnt get pissed, but it definitely annoyed me at first.

 

The argument of "how would you feel" falls apart the instant you find a player who says "It wouldn't bother me." I'm one of those players.

 

Losing loot rolls is part and parcel of the MMO experience. You chalk it up to bad luck, and you try again if you really need the particular piece that dropped.

 

What people are attempting to do is stack the deck to improve their personal chances of getting loot, by reducing the number of people rolling on a given drop. Their explanations are just misdirections (attempted, anyway) to keep people from realizing that. It goes back to WoW with there being one tank in a group of 5, and wanting to do everything in their power to protect their functional lock on tanking drops, to the point that Blizzard finally assigned group roles to loot, with the intent to eventually incorporate active specs on each character.

 

Four players go into a leveling Flashpoint. Each of them has companions, each of whom can use upgrades. Four players down a boss. Four players get to roll on a drop. Nothing could be more fair or impartial.

 

It's not the business of the 3 losing players what the 1 winning player does with the loot they won.

[Sulvan]

I think it is okay only you ask the group and they say yes if anyone were to ask and one player said they needed it then no it is not okay.

 

If nobody says they need it then yes perfectly fine but other players come before companions.

[Teldara]

You answered your own question in your post.

 

You're in a group. Your roll for your companion is moot and worthless because that's solo play.

 

You can greed for it if no one needs it. But taking an item for your companion is rude and unethical in the MMO world. You have to ask your group or watch the rolls. If no one rolls need you might as well take it. But if the tank rolls need and you roll need for your companion, you better get your Anti-Flame shield on.

 

You could do it, but it results in a kick.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Teldara

[KrelosDarksky]

This is easily settled by discussing this with your group before you begin.

 

 

I'm kind of on the fence personally.

 

 

 

.

[Gemble]

i have a consular.. and a nice upgrade willpower lightsabor dropped for me.. but 2x sentinals rolled need on it.. and i lost it.. not sure why they needed it.. it was no good to them.. thats anoying imo.

[spoonguy]

i have a consular.. and a nice upgrade willpower lightsabor dropped for me.. but 2x sentinals rolled need on it.. and i lost it.. not sure why they needed it.. it was no good to them.. thats anoying imo.

 

You sure it wasn't better than what they had? Or could they not use it at all?

[jellOfish]

Real people>companions/off spec. This has been the norm for over a decade so I don't know why we even have to discuss this.

 

The benefit for your companion from a new piece of gear is much smaller than the benefit for a player and your companion isn't nearly as effective as another player. That is a fact. Most end game content is done with other players and not companion so why is it so hard to understand who should have the priority?

Also, it's not out of entitlement that specific classes have a priority for specific items. It's because of effective usage of the stuff that drops so that the overall playerbase "gear level" is as good as it can. People wanting the stuff that is most effective for their specific class is entitlement? Then what is you rolling on gear others could use better just because you want to enhance your single player experience, selfishness? ESPECIALLY when there are so many ways to gear a companion and ESPECIALLY when the companion doesn't need top of the line gear.

 

To the specific group of tools who go "I roll need on everything because I helped clear the instance". Well please let us know your server and character names so that we might make a list. I mean, you shouldn't have a problem backing up your opinions by revealing your identities, amirite?

 

When rolling on need for your companion, just tell people before you start you are going to do it and let the group decide. I'd bet my left nut that the majority won't agree with this, unless you specifically state that you will roll need only after every other player has decided he doesn't need it. I don't even have to back this up. Every reasonable long time MMO player already knows how the loot system works.

[jellOfish]

You sure it wasn't better than what they had? Or could they not use it at all?

 

Consulars and sentinels use different primary stats. Sentilens should never roll on consular stuff and vice versa.

[Alcarinn]

This is easily settled by discussing this with your group before you begin.

 

 

I'm kind of on the fence personally.

 

 

 

.

 

This whole forum topic and all similar to it would simply never happen if bioware listened to us and make all gear dropping in flashpoints and raids player equip only....

 

But noooo bioware wants us to argue so we dont see their mistakes!

[Earendhil]

I think, as others have said there is a very easy answer to this question.

 

Its up to you. Agree rules before you go in, or dont PUG anything. You can except everyone to be nicce or reasonable, some peeps are in it for themselves screw all others.

 

I tend to be a nice guy and have come across people who need on everything. At that point you have a choice. Give them another chance or leave the FP and get someone new to replace them.

[Vinushka]

Uhm..I leveled to 50, and replenished Kaliyo's gear over 4 times fully with Auction House greens and blues to keep her up to date until I got Doctor Lokin, and then regeared him 3x over with the Auction House and my hand me downs, and kept his Mods and Armorings up to date as much as possible. He didn't require as much upkeep as kaliyo, but you get the point -- You're doing it wrong.

 

You don't need to jack other people's gear just to gear your companions. If that's going to become the norm in this game, you know what else is? Myself and people like me just picking need on EVERY-SINGLE-ITEM that drops, regardless of whether we or our companions can use them. I don't have a STR companion, but you know what? I think you don't deserve that STR item you might need since you jacked everything else from me. How about that?

Edited January 6, 2012 by Vinushka

[scfs]

Real people>companions/off spec. This has been the norm for over a decade so I don't know why we even have to discuss this.

 

The benefit for your companion from a new piece of gear is much smaller than the benefit for a player and your companion isn't nearly as effective as another player. That is a fact. Most end game content is done with other players and not companion so why is it so hard to understand who should have the priority?

Also, it's not out of entitlement that specific classes have a priority for specific items. It's because of effective usage of the stuff that drops so that the overall playerbase "gear level" is as good as it can. People wanting the stuff that is most effective for their specific class is entitlement? Then what is you rolling on gear others could use better just because you want to enhance your single player experience, selfishness? ESPECIALLY when there are so many ways to gear a companion and ESPECIALLY when the companion doesn't need top of the line gear.

 

To the specific group of tools who go "I roll need on everything because I helped clear the instance". Well please let us know your server and character names so that we might make a list. I mean, you shouldn't have a problem backing up your opinions by revealing your identities, amirite?

 

When rolling on need for your companion, just tell people before you start you are going to do it and let the group decide. I'd bet my left nut that the majority won't agree with this, unless you specifically state that you will roll need only after every other player has decided he doesn't need it. I don't even have to back this up. Every reasonable long time MMO player already knows how the loot system works.

My Damage Dealin companion does more damage then most Damage dealers i group with.

 

Food for thought.

[jellOfish]

My Damage Dealin companion does more damage then most Damage dealers i group with.

 

Food for thought.

 

Then don't group with morons.

[Pattonite]

yes its wrong, there was threads on it in beta but nothing was ever done about it. they should put classes on the flash point items, if its cunning/endurance then its obviously smuggler/imperial agent. i see TONS of stuff on the bazaar that say its for certain classes and thats just crafted stuff.

 

do what i do, find some slotted gear for the companion and gear them up by modding them with commendation mods from towns. hell my healer/tank companions gear is just as nice as what i have on. used doctor lokin as a main healer for 4 man heroics on alderan. granted we had good CCs but he did a great job as healer.or just buy them some pvp gear, bought kalyio a heavy sith style pvp helm and gutted the mods and replaced them with commendation mods with her stats. its easier than repeatedly running flashpoints and saves the head ache of rolling on some one elses gear they need for their main.

[Eegorr]

What people are attempting to do is stack the deck to improve their personal chances of getting loot, by reducing the number of people rolling on a given drop. Their explanations are just misdirections (attempted, anyway) to keep people from realizing that. It goes back to WoW with there being one tank in a group of 5, and wanting to do everything in their power to protect their functional lock on tanking drops, to the point that Blizzard finally assigned group roles to loot, with the intent to eventually incorporate active specs on each character.

 

If your definition of 'stacking the deck to improve their personal chances' is to deny people who can't even use the loot to roll, then yes, you are correct. We do want the decks stacked this way, and we're entitled (to use another fragrantly misused word) to do so.

 

As many have stated. Be honest about your intentions and you will never have any problems what so ever. If I join to tank a run only to find that the people there will need on tank loot for their companions, then I will kindly and in an unflamy manner ask them to find someone else. I also wouldn't dream of needing for dps or healer gear, and I have absolutely no problem with people needing for companions -- as long as no one needs it themselves. Companions go before greed, certainly.

[jellOfish]

What people are attempting to do is stack the deck to improve their personal chances of getting loot, by reducing the number of people rolling on a given drop. Their explanations are just misdirections (attempted, anyway) to keep people from realizing that. It goes back to WoW with there being one tank in a group of 5, and wanting to do everything in their power to protect their functional lock on tanking drops, to the point that Blizzard finally assigned group roles to loot, with the intent to eventually incorporate active specs on each character.

 

That would be true if it was clear what loot is going to drop so that people can stack their deck to improve chances, which obviously is not true. Sure, you have improved chances when the gear corresponding to your class drops. However, in the same time you lock yourself out of needing on stuff you can't use improving the chances of someone else. It's called effective usage of equipment. Putting it on your companion instead of a player who can use the upgrade is not effective usage of the equipment but rather a waste.

 

But go on as you please, I do not mind. Doesn't matter if you believe in reputation in an MMO game, it does exist and will come to play in endgame group content.

[Florial]

They really should just add a "Need for Companion" button.

 

But another option is to just solo a low level Heroic-4 or Flashpoint and grab orange gear from there, and slot it for level appropriate stats.

 

Best suggestion yet--a need for companion would be great.

 

To answer the OP. I think that selecting need for a companion is bad manners, especially if someone else in the group could have used the upgrade for themselves. When I'm duoing with hubby and a tank piece drops, he always gets the first dibs for himself and then good old Khem Val gets the scraps if he can't use it. If I was in a group with other folks, I wouldn't dream of rolling need on something for my companion and short changing an upgrade for another player. It will quickly earn you a bad rep if you do.

[nicosand]

I agree with the threadstarter here. I've also needed some things for my comps, altho I always wait and see if someone else needs first, or I ask the group if its okay, if its not I dont...

 

One shouldn't thought of as an idiot for needing an item for ones comp if noone else in the group needs it first.

The true idiots are the one that needs everything...

[Alcarinn]

Best suggestion yet--a need for companion would be great.

 

To answer the OP. I think that selecting need for a companion is bad manners, especially if someone else in the group could have used the upgrade for themselves. When I'm duoing with hubby and a tank piece drops, he always gets the first dibs for himself and then good old Khem Val gets the scraps if he can't use it. If I was in a group with other folks, I wouldn't dream of rolling need on something for my companion and short changing an upgrade for another player. It will quickly earn you a bad rep if you do.

 

Greed is a need for companion its all greedy... if you want something for companion you have 1000000 thousand ways of getting it before looting from flashpoint thats just greed.

 

Buy it off ah, get it off quests, dailies, commendetations, pvp.... .stop *********** over real people for your greed simple

[Eegorr]

Greed is a need for companion its all greedy... if you want something for companion you have 1000000 thousand ways of getting it before looting from flashpoint thats just greed.

 

Buy it off ah, get it off quests, dailies, commendetations, pvp.... .stop *********** over real people for your greed simple

 

No. Need for companion is need for companion. Greed is vendor or sell on the AH. Naturally players go before companions, but companions go before the credits.