Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Hairless]

Then answer me this: Why are there so many people in here saying that combat *IS* responsive then?

 

It either is or it isn't, and if a lot of people aren't seeing it... well... there's got to be a reason for that.

 

Any suggestions?

 

You should ask BW that because they have already officially confirmed the existence of the problem.

At this point you are just trolling.

[BobTheTeepo]

You should want "EVERY" single person on the planet to play "your" game because it means more money to Bioware, more success, more turnaround... BioCon 2013? etc.

 

I know you were half joking but still, I dislike when people believe that "Someone not playing" the game is a "good" thing... I'd love my worst enemy to play this game, as long as he pays for it.

 

I for one, would rather that people like you who attack anyone who doesn't agree with them, did not play this game -- regardless of how it affects the game. I didn't even disagree with you, and you told me to "get out". So I'm going to have to agree with the guy you quoted, I at the very least, don't want you playing this game with me, and anyone else like you.

[Kasperion]

Any suggestions?

1. Log into the game.

2. Go somewhere where mounting is allowed.

3. Start a decent-length channeling spell like a Jedi Consular's Meditation.

4. During the channel, click mount.

 

If you see a double-clutch at the beginning of the cast, you're welcome.

[Cranberries]

Then answer me this: Why are there so many people in here saying that combat *IS* responsive then?

 

It either is or it isn't, and if a lot of people aren't seeing it... well... there's got to be a reason for that.

 

Any suggestions?

 

The people say it is response are:

 

a) a bad player so they don't know what responsive combat is;

b) a slow player (read above)

[Xcore]

Then answer me this: Why are there so many people in here saying that combat *IS* responsive then?

 

It either is or it isn't, and if a lot of people aren't seeing it... well... there's got to be a reason for that.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Because they're unable to tell the difference... low APM, slow reaction time. Very simple...

 

Notice how no proper high ranking players support the claim of "no delay here, herp derp"?

 

 

We have two Pro Gamers who have proven their claim of Professional Gamer come out with analysis on the obvious delay and sluggishness. We have yet to have one Pro Gamer or anything near that come out and say "nope, its all good... very smooth".

 

Pretend its a racetracK, a new one:

 

1) You go drive your Miata on it, "WoW, so amazing... love it"

2) Michael Schumacher comes around says, "This is garbage... nothing like Nuremburg Ring"... lol noobs loving this... huehuehue

 

3) You say: "Michael, get over yourself... its fine.. I don't have a problem with it"

 

4) Michael: "Yea, you have fun in this crapfest..."

 

 

5) Six months later, no-one cares to race on your new track with you, cause it appears something is wrong with it... no-one knows what, they're not good enough to notice whats really the issue, they just don't feel like racing there.

 

 

My point is, those claiming there is not issue, simply aren't perceptive enough. This is very hard to admit because we all think we're the best drivers, gamers etc...

[BobTheTeepo]

Yes, because awareness and pressure needs to be kept up on this topic. Just because the Devs say "oh yea, we're on it... thanks" does NOT mean "ok guys, close up shop... lets stop talking about this... this is "so" yesterday"...

 

Give up, this topic is at the heart of MMO failure, it should be pressed to Bioware until we have exact details or visible improvement.

 

Being quite does not help Bioware or the future of SW:TOR.

 

Yes because Bioware cares if this thread gets 100 pages. That certainly helps them think about an issue they're already thinking about. Like I said, talk about it all you want, it's simply not beneficial. If you're an experienced MMO player (like me) you know that once the Devs have put their attention onto something, they're going to do it eventually, talking about it not has no benefit.

 

That still does little to justify your straw man attack upon me that was completely baseless and rather insulting. Especially when all I did was voice my opinion on if this is still constructive or not. This thread has devolved into "Hey, the ability delay is a big deal!" and "No it isn't!". It is a problem regardless of how big it is, and it will be fixed (hopefully this month), so continuing the immature back and forth does nothing for anyone.

[Tiron_Raptor]

Yes, because awareness and pressure needs to be kept up on this topic. Just because the Devs say "oh yea, we're on it... thanks" does NOT mean "ok guys, close up shop... lets stop talking about this... this is "so" yesterday"...

 

Give up, this topic is at the heart of MMO failure, it should be pressed to Bioware until we have exact details or visible improvement.

 

Being quite does not help Bioware or the future of SW:TOR.

 

This isn't at the heart of MMO failure. Being a good game or a bad game is at the heart of MMO failure.

 

All those MMOs that came out since WoW and didn't do well failed because they sucked, and almost everyone that played it apparently thought so.

 

Take warhammer or age of conan for example. On mmodata.net, warhammer gets a 'C' for accuracy (basically all estimates), Conan gets a 'B' (Mix of Estimates and reliable data).

 

Both of them show massive spikes at release, that almost immediately drop off to small fraction of that initial spike.

 

Your sig says you played SWG. Were you around for the NGE? Do you remember what the forums were like before it happened?

 

10000 times worse than what we have here.

 

Based on what I've seen and what I've heard, there's a small group of people that are cranky because it doesn't cater to their outdated playstyle, and the majority of the playerbase is mostly satisfied, so long as the actual bugs get fixed.

 

Maybe this just isn't the game for you.

 

And of course, I'd like as many people to play it as possible. But when you start making it quite clear that you're not willing to stay unless the game is wrecked as far as I'm concerned, well... I'm not gonna be sad if you leave because they didn't wreck it for you. Just sayin'.

[Xcore]

I for one, would rather that people like you who attack anyone who doesn't agree with them, did not play this game -- regardless of how it affects the game. I didn't even disagree with you, and you told me to "get out". So I'm going to have to agree with the guy you quoted, I at the very least, don't want you playing this game with me, and anyone else like you.

 

I should be offended? I'm sorry you don't want me playing this game with you... I'm still trying to raise awareness to an issue that "if solved" would make this game overall a greater game for everyone, including you.

 

SW:TOR having 20 Million Subs >> SW:TOR having 2 Million Subs

 

The above is a benefit to "everyone"

[Xcore]

Yes because Bioware cares if this thread gets 100 pages. That certainly helps them think about an issue they're already thinking about. Like I said, talk about it all you want, it's simply not beneficial. If you're an experienced MMO player (like me) you know that once the Devs have put their attention onto something, they're going to do it eventually, talking about it not has no benefit.

 

That still does little to justify your straw man attack upon me that was completely baseless and rather insulting. Especially when all I did was voice my opinion on if this is still constructive or not. This thread has devolved into "Hey, the ability delay is a big deal!" and "No it isn't!". It is a problem regardless of how big it is, and it will be fixed (hopefully this month), so continuing the immature back and forth does nothing for anyone.

 

The longer this threadline continues, the more awareness it raises and the more support it garners the more attention the issue will receive from Bioware. Rightfully so as it is the single most important issue to address to attempt the Market Leader Position.

 

You could leave the thread, you've made it clear you're opposed to it and that you would actually prefer banning me from playing the game outright.

 

 

Thanks

[Tiron_Raptor]

Yes because Bioware cares if this thread gets 100 pages. That certainly helps them think about an issue they're already thinking about. Like I said, talk about it all you want, it's simply not beneficial. If you're an experienced MMO player (like me) you know that once the Devs have put their attention onto something, they're going to do it eventually, talking about it not has no benefit.

 

That still does little to justify your straw man attack upon me that was completely baseless and rather insulting. Especially when all I did was voice my opinion on if this is still constructive or not. This thread has devolved into "Hey, the ability delay is a big deal!" and "No it isn't!". It is a problem regardless of how big it is, and it will be fixed (hopefully this month), so continuing the immature back and forth does nothing for anyone.

 

The basic problem is that the agreement on what the ability delay is, or if there even actually is one, isn't universal.

 

It doesn't help that the OP isn't anything like consistent with his descriptions of what the problem is anyway, and seems prone to hyperbole that just muddies the issue further.

[Cranberries]

Xcore. Ignore the baddies in this thread. Just ignore them.

 

DLing PTR as we speak to see if the ability delay is in any way resolved.

[Xcore]

This isn't at the heart of MMO failure. Being a good game or a bad game is at the heart of MMO failure.

 

All those MMOs that came out since WoW and didn't do well failed because they sucked, and almost everyone that played it apparently thought so.

 

Take warhammer or age of conan for example. On mmodata.net, warhammer gets a 'C' for accuracy (basically all estimates), Conan gets a 'B' (Mix of Estimates and reliable data).

 

Both of them show massive spikes at release, that almost immediately drop off to small fraction of that initial spike.

 

Your sig says you played SWG. Were you around for the NGE? Do you remember what the forums were like before it happened?

 

10000 times worse than what we have here.

 

Based on what I've seen and what I've heard, there's a small group of people that are cranky because it doesn't cater to their outdated playstyle, and the majority of the playerbase is mostly satisfied, so long as the actual bugs get fixed.

 

Maybe this just isn't the game for you.

 

And of course, I'd like as many people to play it as possible. But when you start making it quite clear that you're not willing to stay unless the game is wrecked as far as I'm concerned, well... I'm not gonna be sad if you leave because they didn't wreck it for you. Just sayin'.

 

You're extremely casual... its remarkable really... your past few pages of arguments are nearly infantile contrasted to the truth of what makes an MMO successful.

 

If you don't believe in Gameplay > All, you are simply wrong.

 

 

Unless perhaps you're playing a turn-based game or some other gimmick.

[BobTheTeepo]

I should be offended? I'm sorry you don't want me playing this game with you... I'm still trying to raise awareness to an issue that "if solved" would make this game overall a greater game for everyone, including you.

 

SW:TOR having 20 Million Subs >> SW:TOR having 2 Million Subs

 

The above is a benefit to "everyone"

 

If you did so without being needlessly rude to others who you think might be disagreeing with you, I'd be cool with that. I never even disagreed with you, I just said that this issue is being addressed and somehow that means I should "get out"? Not to mention you clumped me in with all the biodrones for some reason, that really didn't even make sense.

 

Bottom line, you do yourself and your cause a disservice by attacking people without cause, especially when you do things like Straw Man attacks. What really hurts it is I agree with you, but now I can't even bring myself to support what you're saying because you go about it like a jerk to be honest.

[gurugeorge]

I can't believe some people are arguing against this. There is nothing anyone could lose from Bioware fixing this issue.

 

Oh yes there is, if some of the WoW enthusiasts here get their way, and the game is "fixed" in a certain way, it could turn from an immersive experience for a majority of players, and especially explorer-type players new to MMOs, into a merely competitive game that satisfies hardcore achievers but loses the people who are into immersion who are attracted to the game for other reasons than achievement and comparison with other players.

 

There are already enough rabid achiever-based games out there for crying out loud. Let's have some immersion in MMOs for a change.

 

Devs, fix the actual problem, but don't listen to these people who simply want exactly the same combat system as WoW. The game's already enough like WoW as it is.

 

XCore's whole thing is a stealth attempt to change the game design to the way he wants it to play, under a thin veil of altruism. His quest for absolutely instantaneous responsiveness to keypresses looks, for all the world, like nothing more than the monomania of a hyper-competitive player. Yes, responsiveness is important, but it's not important, in a game that's as much story-based as combat-based, for it to be of the type that he (and a few other hardcore players) wants: instant responsiveness to keypresses, overriding any sense that your character is a living being deriving from coherent animations.

 

What he and others contributing to his threads have really discovered is an intermittent problem that the devs are looking into (the problem neatly described as "the combination of abilities not firing, the GCD firing for no reason, and non-GCD abilties triggering the GCD"). What Xcore and others claim to have discovered is a problem that's apparently always there, but sometimes not noticeable.

 

But it's contradictory and meaningless to claim that you can perceive a problem that sometimes can't be perceived because it's "masked", without an explanation of how the "omnipresent but sometimes masked" problem has been discovered by you through other means than perception.

 

XCore: what analytical or programming tools are you using to discover this "omnipresent problem that's sometimes masked", and how are you (as you ought to agree you must) distinguishing it from a problem that's only intermittently there? Because ex hypothesi, you can't be figuring this out from mere perception, can you?

 

Something else that rings warning bells for me: when people start babbling on with the appearance of knowledge about "game engines", and I'm starting to see a fair bit of this on the forums. Apparently some people have made up their minds that BioWare didn't know what they were doing when they licensed AND EXTENSIVELY MODIFIED a game engine that they chose BECAUSE OF ITS BACK END TOOLS AND ITS SUPPORT FROM ITS DEVELOPERS. If you read what BioWare have actually said about the Hero engine, the reason they chose it was because it is designed to maximise content productivity in development, to make it easier for large complex teams to pump out large amounts of content.

 

But no, every yahoo on these forums has made up their mind that all problems, from the high-end-system fps problem to the responsiveness problem, stem from "the game engine".

 

Pfeh.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Artthen
removed profanity

[Xcore]

Xcore. Ignore the baddies in this thread. Just ignore them.

 

DLing PTR as we speak to see if the ability delay is in any way resolved.

 

I doubt that anything would be tweaked to a noticeable point yet... but do tell.

[Xcore]

The basic problem is that the agreement on what the ability delay is, or if there even actually is one, isn't universal.

 

It doesn't help that the OP isn't anything like consistent with his descriptions of what the problem is anyway, and seems prone to hyperbole that just muddies the issue further.

 

Negative, in fact you appear to be the only one truly confused about anything recently. If people are confused, surely there would be more following and support for your position?

[BobTheTeepo]

The longer this threadline continues, the more awareness it raises and the more support it garners the more attention the issue will receive from Bioware. Rightfully so as it is the single most important issue to address to attempt the Market Leader Position.

 

You could leave the thread, you've made it clear you're opposed to it and that you would actually prefer banning me from playing the game outright.

 

 

Thanks

 

I wouldn't ban you, and I don't disagree with you. I don't agree that this thread needs to continue, but I do agree with it's overall point. I'm a good player, and I realize the delay and I've been vocal about how I hope it gets fixed. But this thread has degenerated into a back and forth useless thread. You're not raising awareness anymore, if at all. People who haven't experienced it either don't care or don't agree with you, and people who have can only agree with you. So "raising awareness" as you call it does you nothing, and even if it did, you're actually hurting your cause by the way you act.

 

Again, so there's no mix up, I agree that this is a problem.

 

Edit: Also, you don't need awareness on an issue that's being addressed. That's like telling someone to fix your TV, then telling them to fix it while they're fixing it. It's overkill. Wait till the end of the month, if they still haven't fixed it, I'll even participate in threads like this.

Edited January 7, 2012 by BobTheTeepo

[Rephlexie]

I just wanted to list my experience as a level 50 Jedi Shadow (infiltration).

 

Delay related:

Whirlwind - Part of the animation is done while character is stealthed. (Cosmetic)

Tumult - MAJOR delay in activation. A rotation comes to a standstill with this ability.

Spinning Strike - MINOR delay in activation.

Battle Readiness - MINOR delay in activation.

Force Potency - MINOR delay in Activation.

Force Breech - MINOR delay in Activation when used as AOE in Combat Technique (PvP).

 

Mechanic related:

Shadow Strike - SERIOUS problems with the intersection code on this skill. I often have to run around the back of my target until it flags TRUE. Player Characters its even worse, often I will stand there bashing it on a stunned player with full force it it simply will NOT initiate.

 

There is a small delay in almost all of the ability except buffs, which I am sure will be fine, but Shadow Strike being one of our principle abilities is BORKED at the moment.

 

Rephlexie - 50 Jedi Shadow - Cor Run

Edited January 7, 2012 by Rephlexie

[Terko_Koslah]

I get "pre-aggro" all the time when I open up on a mob with a long cast time spell.

 

It's pretty annoying and really bad programming.

 

This is what I experience with my smuggler.

 

Throwing frag grenade in cover the mobs notice you and start firing you when your pulling the grenade out of your pocket. I guess it's probably because the ability is instant but the animation is not.

 

Well, it would be more interesting or something I've gotten used to if they would start shooting only when the grenade explodes. But there is a certain sluggishness here .

[Xcore]

I wouldn't ban you, and I don't disagree with you. I don't agree that this thread needs to continue, but I do agree with it's overall point. I'm a good player, and I realize the delay and I've been vocal about how I hope it gets fixed. But this thread has degenerated into a back and forth useless thread. You're not raising awareness anymore, if at all. People who haven't experienced it either don't care or don't agree with you, and people who have can only agree with you. So "raising awareness" as you call it does you nothing, and even if it did, you're actually hurting your cause by the way you act.

 

Again, so there's no mix up, I agree that this is a problem.

 

Well I believe that this thread continuing until the problem is resolved is a positive thing, I wouldn't be hurt if it doesn't... as long as this issue gets resolved I'm fine.

 

As to "how I act", is again completely irrelevant... all that matters, literally the only thing that is of any relevance, is this getting fixed.

[Tiron_Raptor]

Oh yes there is, if some of the WoW enthusiasts here get their way, and the game is "fixed" in a certain way, it could turn from an immersive experience for a majority of players, and especially explorer-type players new to MMOs, into a merely competitive game that satisfies hardcore achievers but loses the people who are into immersion who are attracted to the game for other reasons than achievement and comparison with other players.

 

There are already enough f*****g rabid achiever-based games out there for crying out loud. Let's have some immersion in MMOs for a change.

 

Devs, fix the actual problem, but don't listen to these people who simply want exactly the same combat system as WoW. The game's already enough like WoW as it is.

 

XCore's whole thing is a stealth attempt to change the game design to the way he wants it to play, under a thin veil of altruism. His quest for absolutely instantaneous responsiveness to keypresses looks, for all the world, like nothing more than the monomania of a hyper-competitive player. Yes, responsiveness is important, but it's not important, in a game that's as much story-based as combat-based, for it to be of the type that he (and a few other hardcore players) wants: instant responsiveness to keypresses, overriding any sense that your character is a living being deriving from coherent animations.

 

What he and others contributing to his threads have really discovered is an intermittent problem that the devs are looking into (the problem neatly described as "the combination of abilities not firing, the GCD firing for no reason, and non-GCD abilties triggering the GCD"). What Xcore and others claim to have discovered is a problem that's apparently always there, but sometimes not noticeable.

 

But it's contradictory and meaningless to claim that you can perceive a problem that sometimes can't be perceived because it's "masked", without an explanation of how the "omnipresent but sometimes masked" problem has been discovered by you through other means than perception.

 

XCore: what analytical or programming tools are you using to discover this "omnipresent problem that's sometimes masked", and how are you (as you ought to agree you must) distinguishing it from a problem that's only intermittently there? Because ex hypothesi, you can't be figuring this out from mere perception, can you?

 

Something else that rings warning bells for me: when people start babbling on with the appearance of knowledge about "game engines", and I'm starting to see a fair bit of this on the forums. Apparently some people have made up their minds that BioWare didn't know what they were doing when they licensed AND EXTENSIVELY MODIFIED a game engine that they chose BECAUSE OF ITS BACK END TOOLS AND ITS SUPPORT FROM ITS DEVELOPERS. If you read what BioWare have actually said about the Hero engine, the reason they chose it was because it is designed to maximise content productivity in development, to make it easier for large complex teams to pump out large amounts of content.

 

But no, every yahoo on these forums has made up their mind that all problems, from the high-end-system fps problem to the responsiveness problem, stem from "the game engine".

 

Pfeh.

 

Dead-on, from what I can see.

 

At this point, it's either that, or there's some other delay specific to certain people that the rest of us aren't seeing.

[Taeldian]

Oh yes there is, if some of the WoW enthusiasts here get their way, and the game is "fixed" in a certain way, it could turn from an immersive experience for a majority of players, and especially explorer-type players new to MMOs, into a merely competitive game that satisfies hardcore achievers but loses the people who are into immersion who are attracted to the game for other reasons than achievement and comparison with other players.

 

There are already enough f*****g rabid achiever-based games out there for crying out loud. Let's have some immersion in MMOs for a change.

 

Devs, fix the actual problem, but don't listen to these people who simply want exactly the same combat system as WoW. The game's already enough like WoW as it is.

 

XCore's whole thing is a stealth attempt to change the game design to the way he wants it to play, under a thin veil of altruism. His quest for absolutely instantaneous responsiveness to keypresses looks, for all the world, like nothing more than the monomania of a hyper-competitive player. Yes, responsiveness is important, but it's not important, in a game that's as much story-based as combat-based, for it to be of the type that he (and a few other hardcore players) wants: instant responsiveness to keypresses, overriding any sense that your character is a living being deriving from coherent animations.

 

What he and others contributing to his threads have really discovered is an intermittent problem that the devs are looking into (the problem neatly described as "the combination of abilities not firing, the GCD firing for no reason, and non-GCD abilties triggering the GCD"). What Xcore and others claim to have discovered is a problem that's apparently always there, but sometimes not noticeable.

 

But it's contradictory and meaningless to claim that you can perceive a problem that sometimes can't be perceived because it's "masked", without an explanation of how the "omnipresent but sometimes masked" problem has been discovered by you through other means than perception.

 

XCore: what analytical or programming tools are you using to discover this "omnipresent problem that's sometimes masked", and how are you (as you ought to agree you must) distinguishing it from a problem that's only intermittently there? Because ex hypothesi, you can't be figuring this out from mere perception, can you?

 

Something else that rings warning bells for me: when people start babbling on with the appearance of knowledge about "game engines", and I'm starting to see a fair bit of this on the forums. Apparently some people have made up their minds that BioWare didn't know what they were doing when they licensed AND EXTENSIVELY MODIFIED a game engine that they chose BECAUSE OF ITS BACK END TOOLS AND ITS SUPPORT FROM ITS DEVELOPERS. If you read what BioWare have actually said about the Hero engine, the reason they chose it was because it is designed to maximise content productivity in development, to make it easier for large complex teams to pump out large amounts of content.

 

But no, every yahoo on these forums has made up their mind that all problems, from the high-end-system fps problem to the responsiveness problem, stem from "the game engine".

 

Pfeh.

 

Having the game respond immediately to the commands you give it is a win for everyone. It's a win for you. It's a win for me. It's a win for casuals. It's a win for hardcore players. It's a win for WoW Lovers. It's a win for WoW Haters. It's a win for Star Wars fanatics. It's a win for people who want to see their character twirl a lightsaber in a dramatic fashion. It's a win for achievers. It's a win for explorers. It's a win for killers. It's a win for socializers. It's a win for people who just love the story. It's a win for the developers. It's a win for the shareholders. It's a win for the players. It's a win for literally every single person who ever logs in. There are no tradeoffs. There are no drawbacks.

[Sideshot]

I've noticed this quite a bit and as others have said, this is the bar between a mediocre mmo and an amazing mmo. One instance that happens to me all the time, especially noticeable in pvp, is using jet boost (a mercenary slow + knockback). It's supposed to be an instant, but I have to go through an animation when I hit the button before it effects my opponent. Even a split second delay is highly frustrating in pvp.

[Taeldian]

And frankly, the only thing that breaks immersiveness for me more than the game straight-up breaking the fourth wall?

 

Control problems which disrupt the connection between me and my character. The more fluid the controls, the more immersed I am.

 

The next closest thing would be a DS/LS system which compels me to make choices my character wouldn't make in order to continue using certain pieces of gear.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian

[BobTheTeepo]

Well I believe that this thread continuing until the problem is resolved is a positive thing, I wouldn't be hurt if it doesn't... as long as this issue gets resolved I'm fine.

 

As to "how I act", is again completely irrelevant... all that matters, literally the only thing that is of any relevance, is this getting fixed.

 

No, it's not irrelevant. That's what you don't realize (that's the problem Cranberries has on all his threads). If you treat people nice, fair, and with respect, people will see how reasonable you act and will be more ready to support your cause.

 

You've already alienated a person who may have been convinced to support you, back you up on your posts (me) because I can see where you're coming from. You state things based in logic, and at the very least, even if you are wrong, your heart is somewhat in the right place. But by the way you treated me, now you've pretty much made it so I can only see you as a jerk, therefore making it so I really can't bring myself to support you.

 

Bottom line, it hurts your cause to treat people unfairly, just be civil and it will make the case you're trying to make a lot easier to get behind. The better you treat people, the more people will support you and the more likely it will be that this gets fixed. Surely you can see that it only benefits you to be civil and fair.