Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Believe it or not, you CAN have both. Not having both is just the result of laziness. And are we playing the same game? I seriously don't find it sluggish or clunky... Laziness or allocation of resources. They have to prioritize things, and if one solution takes two months while the other takes a week and it's this big of an issue, it makes sense to implement the fast solution. Just as anecdotal evidence, seven of the nine people I convinced to come play have complained about this. Only three of them are still logging in regularly, and the complaints were unsolicited. Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiron_Raptor Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 This entire thread is filled with people that are here for the sole reason of it feeling sluggish and clunky in contrast to WoW, if you at all read the OP, the entire point is that Rift/Warhammer etc etc were all undone by this very certain, unidentifiable "feeling" of "something is wrong, I can't put my finger on it... it just feels weird". Thats how the the exodus happens, silently, snowballing... no-one knows why (especially devs). Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree. if we can preserve nice animations AND pure precision/responsive combat... PERFECT! I love the animations so far in SW:TOR. BUT As soon as 1 single animation > gameplay function at all, its wrong. This is where the "disconnect" happens between Player and Avatar. 0.1 Delay in favor of Animation is un-acceptable... if you can have pure performance and function AND preserve amazing looks, well WIN/WIN! Hmm...let's see. One way I get to play a great game that most people ignore because they can't grasp that the animations aren't actually tied to what happens the way you seem to think they are, the other way I get another game that looks like crap. Hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiron_Raptor Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Laziness or allocation of resources. They have to prioritize things, and if one solution takes two months while the other takes a week and it's this big of an issue, it makes sense to implement the fast solution. Just as anecdotal evidence, seven of the nine people I convinced to come play have complained about this. Only three of them are still logging in regularly, and the complaints were unsolicited. Funny. My 100+ member guild, that largely came over directly from WoW with a few old friends from SWG added in... none of them has complained about it once. Or stopped logging in. In fact when I mentioned it to them, they responded by making wisecracks about it. ...Hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasstavad Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 The same way all clients are delayed in WoW, thus your frostbolt following you forever. Also Animation Clipping > Delay/Sluggish/Clunky Gameplay Function > Appearance YESSSSSS The last thing you should be doing in combat is admiring your pretty animations... especially in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbalana Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 To Xcore, well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHenryXXi Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I can't believe some people are arguing against this. There is nothing anyone could lose from Bioware fixing this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasstavad Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Funny. My 100+ member guild, that largely came over directly from WoW with a few old friends from SWG added in... none of them has complained about it once. Or stopped logging in. In fact when I mentioned it to them, they responded by making wisecracks about it. ...Hmmm I can play that game... Every .. I mean EVERY single one of my Arena buddies that came over with me has stopped playing. Some made it to 50, most didn't make it past 30. They all quit... and the clunkiness of combat was the #1 reason... it's sad to see my friends list nothing but greyed out names. Edited January 7, 2012 by Rasstavad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiron_Raptor Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I can play that game... Every .. I mean EVERY single one of my Arena buddies that came over with me has stopped playing. Some made it to 50, most didn't make it past 30. They all quit... and the clunkiness of combat was the #1 reason... it's sad to see my friends list nothing but greyed out names. Hmmm...sounds more and more like the people that have a problem with it are the kind of people I'd really rather didn't play the game, so they couldn't ruin another one for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Hmmm...sounds more and more like the people that have a problem with it are the kind of people I'd really rather didn't play the game, so they couldn't ruin another one for me. I want the game to be more than a niche game with a cult following. I want it to be a smashing success. I want it to be the one to beat. I want others to have to emulate what BioWare has done. If the goal is to drive off those "kind of people", then I'm left wondering why you're not playing one of the dozen or so MMOs which successfully drove those "kind of people" off with subpar responsiveness. edit: Unfair, of course, but so is the assumption that you would hate anyone who wants the game to feel fluid. Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasstavad Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Hmmm...sounds more and more like the people that have a problem with it are the kind of people I'd really rather didn't play the game, so they couldn't ruin another one for me. I feel the same way about casuals. You want a super friendly casual experience? That's your choice and you can put me on ignore and never ever have to group with me. All I want is a game that is responsive, challenging - and with a skillcap high enough that competitive play is possible. If that means sacrificing a bit of your pretty animations, so be it. Functionality and that elusive quality "gameplay" is more important than any other aspect. Of course, this is MY opinion and I'm sure you disagree. We will have to see which way the developers go with this. I suspect one of us is going to be dissapointed. Edited January 7, 2012 by Rasstavad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zannis Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 For a topic that has so much attention, I simply have not experienced an ability delay. Even after reading about it, I made a conscious effort to pay attention for signs of the delay, and just have not seen it. No one in my guild (~20 accounts, maybe more) has complained. I asked a few about it (long time and experienced MMO players), none can say they experience any sluggish or delayed combat. Something just doesn't add up here. I truly believe there are a lot of people affected by this, but I'm starting to also think that this is not a universal problem. Some players have the delay, others do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiron_Raptor Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) I want the game to be more than a niche game with a cult following. I want it to be a smashing success. I want it to be the one to beat. I want others to have to emulate what BioWare has done. If the goal is to drive off those "kind of people", then I'm left wondering why you're not playing one of the dozen or so MMOs which successfully drove those "kind of people" off with subpar responsiveness. edit: Unfair, of course, but so is the assumption that you would hate anyone who wants the game to feel fluid. No, but everyone I know thinks the game is, in fact, quite excellent... and somehow everyone I hear complaining about it claims to have either been a top Raider or a top Arena player. You'd think if there was a major responsiveness problem it'd be the casuals who'd be having trouble adapting to it, and yet it's not: it's the top end super hardcore people. Which means either the 'top end' people are having more trouble adapting to the differences than the casuals or... they're nitpicking over something relatively insignificant. Or trying to get everything that's different from WoW's system changed to be identical, because they're uncomfortable with all their old tricks and exploits not working. Either way, I know this: The 'Top End' people ruined World of Warcraft for me. How? By pestering blizzard until they redesigned the game in a way that made it impossible to both play with my friends and be competitive. So I ended up bored out of my skull most of the time. Literally just standing around some major town spinning the camera in circles and chatting with people. I don't want that to happen again. I don't want to end up being sick of this game after less than three years. I want it to be great and STAY great. The top end people? Only a very small part of the overall equation, but frequently having a disproportionate voice in how the game develops. If it comes down to a choice between wrecking one of the game's best features or having them leave, I'll choose having them leave every time. Better a good niche game than popular pap, but it isn't the super hardcore 1% that are gonna make or break it one way or the other. For a topic that has so much attention, I simply have not experienced an ability delay. Even after reading about it, I made a conscious effort to pay attention for signs of the delay, and just have not seen it. No one in my guild (~20 accounts, maybe more) has complained. I asked a few about it (long time and experienced MMO players), none can say they experience any sluggish or delayed combat. Something just doesn't add up here. I truly believe there are a lot of people affected by this, but I'm starting to also think that this is not a universal problem. Some players have the delay, others do not. No, some people just NOTICE it more, and other people don't care. A small group of people is fixating on the fact that superficial effects don't always go off instantly(because it looks like crap when they do), and confusing that with 'responsiveness'. And being very, very noisy about it. Edited January 7, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Hmmm...sounds more and more like the people that have a problem with it are the kind of people I'd really rather didn't play the game, so they couldn't ruin another one for me. You should want "EVERY" single person on the planet to play "your" game because it means more money to Bioware, more success, more turnaround... BioCon 2013? etc. I know you were half joking but still, I dislike when people believe that "Someone not playing" the game is a "good" thing... I'd love my worst enemy to play this game, as long as he pays for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 No, but everyone I know thinks the game is, in fact, quite excellent... and somehow everyone I hear complaining about it claims to have either been a top Raider or a top Arena player. You'd think if there was a major responsiveness problem it'd be the casuals who'd be having trouble adapting to it, and yet it's not: it's the top end super hardcore people. Which means either the 'top end' people are having more trouble adapting to the differences than the casuals or... they're nitpicking over something relatively insignificant. Or trying to get everything that's different from WoW's system changed to be identical, because they're uncomfortable with all their old tricks and exploits not working. Either way, I know this: The 'Top End' people ruined World of Warcraft for me. How? By pestering blizzard until they redesigned the game in a way that made it impossible to both play with my friends and be competitive. So I ended up bored out of my skull most of the time. Literally just standing around some major town spinning the camera in circles and chatting with people. I don't want that to happen again. I don't want to end up being sick of this game after less than three years. I want it to be great and STAY great. The top end people? Only a very small part of the overall equation, but frequently having a disproportionate voice in how the game develops. If it comes down to a choice between wrecking one of the game's best features or having them leave, I'll choose having them leave every time. Better a good niche game than popular pap, but it isn't the super hardcore 1% that are gonna make or break it one way or the other. No, some people just NOTICE it more, and other people don't care. A small group of people is fixating on the fact that superficial effects don't always go off instantly(because it looks like crap when they do), and confusing that with 'responsiveness'. And being very, very noisy about it. This entire post is beyond belief... you should be ashamed... you have no grasp of the genre. I thought you were more intelligent and reflective than the above statements. I can't even highlight sections... from your tirade against hardcore players all the way down to "confusing" ability delay for responsiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culveren Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I feel the same way about casuals. You want a super friendly casual experience? That's your choice and you can put me on ignore and never ever have to group with me. All I want is a game that is responsive, challenging - and with a skillcap high enough that competitive play is possible. If that means sacrificing a bit of your pretty animations, so be it. Functionality and that elusive quality "gameplay" is more important than any other aspect. Of course, this is MY opinion and I'm sure you disagree. We will have to see which way the developers go with this. I suspect one of us is going to be dissapointed. I think the game is capable of being both casual and leet or whatever you want to call it friendly. If they made the combat more responsive i think that this game would then be a perfect mix of both, with the story catering to the more casual and the pvp and raiding for the more advanced users. From the looks of their responses to this thread they do take it very seriously. I never subscribed to wow, so the game feels quite fluid to me, but in watching the videos it was clear that there is a delay of sorts due to animation priority and or length. If they can fix this, which i believe they can, this game will be much better. I still have to work my way through all the single player content, so i am content to not PVP or raid until then, ( i think raiding would still be alright). Im just glad they seem committed to improving this aspect of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Please stop the Hardcore - Casual discussions... not the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaptainne Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Chalk me up as another one who just hasn't noticed it. Long time MMO player from SWG for years and five level 85 toons on WoW. I just don't see the delay here. When others started talking about it on here I have tried to see it. Maybe my eyes have slow reflexes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Just for the record, I personally find the game to be quite excellent. I'm deeply concerned about this issue, however, because of what it can mean for the game. I'm also concerned that it will affect my personal enjoyment of the game in the long term, which I don't want because I think this game is excellent. It's entirely possible that so-called top-end players are more aware of it because they're used to being able to count on their abilities responding immediately. However, even the minor delays affect the people who don't necessarily notice it. If there are people who really do get no delay at all, then I guess they're in good shape. My suspicion, however, is that there's a barely perceptible .2 second (or so) delay for most people which they're not noticing. It will affect how good it feels for people to play in the long term. When everyone's played through their storylines and gotten over the shininess of lightsabers, what will keep people raiding, PvPing, or running heroics here instead of doing the same thing over in WoW? How good the game feels to play. Controls affect that more than you might realize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobTheTeepo Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 You're the same little dude who came into Thread 1 saying "its all fine, there are no issues?" Are you the same guy who says "don't mash buttons, its not WoW, go back to WoW"? Are you the same guy who says "Set to 0.0, fixes everything"? Are you the same guy who says, "nothing is being fixed, they only said they're investigating"? Are you that guy? Get out... No, I'm not. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. In constructive criticism threads I agree with most of what people say, I'm quite reasonable and am not a fanboy. If you took the time to think before typing, or at least research your baseless claims, you'd know I'm rather vocal about the issues that plague this game. I'm just intelligent enough to see that complaining about an issues that's been acknowledges literally has no benefit, unless you just want to whine. Are you the guy who tells people to get out when they mention that complaining about an issue being addressed is somewhat useless? Yes, you are. Get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zydrate Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) You'd think if there was a major responsiveness problem it'd be the casuals who'd be having trouble adapting to it, and yet it's not: it's the top end super hardcore people. Which means either the 'top end' people are having more trouble adapting to the differences than the casuals or... they're nitpicking over something relatively insignificant. No, casuals do not have problems adapting to the sluggish, non-responsive combat because casuals are generally sluggish and non-responsive in games that HAVE well-programmed combat systems. They are the keyboard turning clickers, the ones who hit an ability and think "oooo LIGHTSABERS!!" instead of "Why can't I chain this ability with one off the GCD?" Casuals don't have to adapt to this because they lack the skill required to really notice it... and if this is how you like to play, then that is absolutely fine. Nobody is saying you need to be a hardcore, competitive pvp or pve player. If you enjoy hitting random abilities with no real rhyme, reason or rotation, or if you care more about animations completing than a fluid, seamless combat style, that is ALSO fine for you. However, do NOT attempt to claim that the combat is good from a competitive MMO standpoint--it simply is not. People who have the skill and ability to really learn the combat in a game expect a certain level of responsiveness from their avatar, a level which is currently lacking in SWTOR. They WANT to like the game, but it is simply something they can't get into because of this. So instead of claiming that all these experienced, knowledgeable gamers are imagining an issue, just trust that perhaps they actually have the ability to notice something which you, as a casual, do not. In conclusion, if you want this game to be a powerhouse MMO, make tons of money which will in turn fuel top of the line story and content development for years, then it HAS to appeal to the hardcore, more experienced gaming community. This is all OP and the others in this thread are asking for... and in the end, a game that appeals to all people will be far more successful and enjoyable for everyone. Edited January 7, 2012 by Zydrate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I am a casual and I still want responsive combat. Why the **** would I not?How can responsive combat ever be a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I am a casual and I still want responsive combat. Why the **** would I not? How can responsive combat ever be a bad thing? ding ding ding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiron_Raptor Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 ding ding ding Then answer me this: Why are there so many people in here saying that combat *IS* responsive then? It either is or it isn't, and if a lot of people aren't seeing it... well... there's got to be a reason for that. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 No, I'm not. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. In constructive criticism threads I agree with most of what people say, I'm quite reasonable and am not a fanboy. If you took the time to think before typing, or at least research your baseless claims, you'd know I'm rather vocal about the issues that plague this game. I'm just intelligent enough to see that complaining about an issues that's been acknowledges literally has no benefit, unless you just want to whine. Are you the guy who tells people to get out when they mention that complaining about an issue being addressed is somewhat useless? Yes, you are. Get out. Yes, because awareness and pressure needs to be kept up on this topic. Just because the Devs say "oh yea, we're on it... thanks" does NOT mean "ok guys, close up shop... lets stop talking about this... this is "so" yesterday"... Give up, this topic is at the heart of MMO failure, it should be pressed to Bioware until we have exact details or visible improvement. Being quite does not help Bioware or the future of SW:TOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zydrate Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Then answer me this: Why are there so many people in here saying that combat *IS* responsive then? It either is or it isn't, and if a lot of people aren't seeing it... well... there's got to be a reason for that. Any suggestions? Please see my earlier post. It's pretty clear why some people don't notice the non-responsiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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