Please allow dual spec or cap respec costs.

[Lethality]

The problem with your argument is two fold.

 

On the issue of the way Bioware wants us to play the game, THEY ALREADY ALLOW US TO CHANGE SPECS. We are simply asking for more convenience in doing so.

 

And the problem with the path we're on is, once they give you that convenience, you'll ask for still more. Maybe a 3rd spec. You know it's true. It's best to avoid that whole hornet's nest.

 

 

 

xszaAs for doing PvP and PvE in one spec, yeah you sure could. I myself am not much of a serious PvP'er but I understand some people prefer the most optimal spec possible for when they PvP. What's wrong with that?

 

Wouldn't you rather make sure the developers made sure all specs are viable everywhere?

[Mortreti]

Dual spec is necssary.

 

Just remember next time you are spamming general chat for an hour for a tank/healer for your flashpoint, there's someone out there who doesn't want to pay en exhorbitant respec cost to make your group complete.

 

If you are having that much trouble (which I think an exaggeration), it's really because you refuse to accept anyone who is off-spec to fill the roll. Stop thinking you have to be min/maxxed for everything to enjoy the game, and you'll stop having trouble finding groups.

[Lethality]

Play the way you want and let others play the way they want. Go ahead and pretend there's no respec trainer if that's how you get off....no harm there. Put your points in as you level and NEVER change one. I could carer less how you play the game. Please extend me the same courtesy.

 

No, because it will eventually effect EVERY PLAYER if the ability to swap specs instantly is in the game. And not in a good way. The design itself will begin to suffer from it.

[Crazyflames]

Dual spec is necssary.

 

Just remember next time you are spamming general chat for an hour for a tank/healer for your flashpoint, there's someone out there who doesn't want to pay en exhorbitant respec cost to make your group complete.

 

Dual spec is not necessary. Water is necessary, food is necessary, Dual spec is a convenience. It will never take an hour to get somebody to go with you unless your playing at a really wierd time and nobody was on in the first place, if you want somebody to tank, heal, or DPS that bad you can pay for their respec.

[Lethality]

Oh well, guess instead you'll need to find a new game since they're going to add it. It isn't a question of "if" at this point it is simply "when".

 

Don't count your chickens before they hatch there, "Dude". There are plenty of reasons presented in these threads that BioWare is aware of to NOT do it (and a million reasons that are not in these threads as well.)

 

Bottom line, they didn't think it was the right design to put in the game to launch. So that's their position on it. If it changes, it wasn't because they thought it was a good idea up front.

[Radagastimus]

So I can't use my PVP spec when I'm questing on my PVP server? ...or on Illum? LOL you don't PVP do you?

 

As I said it's impossible to implement and even if it wasnt I'm greatly opposed to separating PVP and PVE mechanics. It creates the feeling of two games which is bad.

 

If you quest on PVP server you would use PVP spec right? Or perphaps hybrid pve/pvp outside warzones? It is not my fault if your mind can not comprehend such small things.

[DaxRendar]

YES! Because that's not average gameplay. The average players, for whom the game is designed, do not typically see those kinds of mechanics at play.

 

If players want to play on the fringe that way, every day, then don't you think there might be _something_ special they should have to do to achieve it?

 

I know we've come to some good agreement on these issues, just playing devils advocate on this post

 

"_something_" yeah sure...

 

Cr 200,000/day? Hell no! If they wanted Flashpoints and Warzones to be casual, make those Missions Weekly instead of Daily and I'm... well not necessarily "fine" but somewhere closer to ok with things.

 

I just really wish they hadn't gone all "Holy Trinity" on this game - I'm a lifelong RPer (PnP) and I'd love a game where it's more about my character than my role... but this one isn't it, and with the choices BW made I want the features I think the game needs to have a healthy grouping population to be present.

[Lethality]

If people want to min/max content why not? If you don't like that playstyle then don't play with them?

 

They already can. But they want it to be even easier and more convenient... Those two ideas don't mesh. You need to jump through some hoops if you want to min/max and the repsec cost is just one of those. Works well.

[quazzi]

I love how people make up numbers in there head for who is important or how many of what type of player there are in game.

 

1st...The tern "Average player" seems to be popular around here. Please refrain from making assumptions about the general player base because it makes you look ignorant and foolish.

 

2nd... The expectation that I would have to roll the exact same class over again, level to 50 and fully re-gear just so I can have the convenience of not having to constantly respec to pve or pvp is asinine.

 

It also breaks a very large part of the immersion of the game for me. My character is supposed to be this awesome Sith Assassin. Who is a jack of all trades he can dps, he can tank, he can pvp. But with your mentality he can only be Mr awesome at 1 roll and 1 roll only. How dare he be a Sith assassin who likes killing republic scum in pvp and raiding.

[Lethality]

Thank you DaxRendar for putting this so eloquently. I think this sums up things quite nicely.

 

RPGs are not Quake or checkers. They are more of a thinking man's game, and considering the time we put into MMOs we consume them more as a hobby than a video game. Given that, that's why investment should matter year over year, not minute to minute.

[Lethality]

Don't really care about that as in all honesty it wouldn't affect me, much like dual spec wouldn't affect you.

 

Dual spec would eventually affect me through design of the game around the idea that it's a tool that exists.

 

So then you agree a progression bonus for people who stick to the same spec is a good idea?

[DaxRendar]

RPGs are not Quake or checkers. They are more of a thinking man's game, and considering the time we put into MMOs we consume them more as a hobby than a video game. Given that, that's why investment should matter year over year, not minute to minute.

 

Ah, but if the "minute to minute" is consistently frustrating or unpleasant...

 

There will be no year to year

[RAMunch]

LMAO...please stop with the idea that ALTS are the answer.

 

a) Dual Spec should be similar to buying the Speeder Skill. A one time very high cost limited to level 50's. That's the King's Ransom I mean.

 

b) This would not in any way impact you. If you love being a DPS in PVE the ability to perhaps Tank or Heal or the option to use a PVP spec doesn't change anything. You won't ever use the option. You'll still be a PVE DPS.

 

Someone please tell us how you're gameplay would actually be ruined by this. Saying it's bad design, laziness, ruins the MMO genre etc are not answsers because those are feelings. How does it effect YOU?

 

It decreases my chance of getting in a group, i play MMOs for the group aspect not the solo aspect.

 

So we all I think can agree that Tanks and Healers combined are outnumbered by DPS specs.

 

So lets assume a current spec distribution of:

 

50 healers

150 dpsers

50 tanks

 

Assuming 4 man groups of tank, 2 dps, 1 healer you have enough to make 50 groups with 50dps being left out in the cold.

So if i'm a healer, assuming everyone is grouping I have a 100% chance at a group.

 

Now if just ONE of those dps wants to respec to healing spec to take away from my 100% chance (cause it only take 1 and my chance drops below 100% and there by impacting me) he has to currently pay for it. I am okay with this because I know he devoted the time to farm up the credits and he paid something to take away from my enjoyment. Now the dps group has a higher percentage of getting in a group because there is 1 less than them. If our "flip-flopper" wants to go back to the dps group and lower their % chance of getting picked up in a group then again he has to pay for it. The fact that he is paying everytime he has a negative impact on someone at least somewhat justifies it, as i'm not crazy enough to think they will take out respecing. But respeccing alone impacts my agameplay.

 

In the dual spec scenario assume same distribution, also assume that I am not using the Dual Spec (as that seems to be everyone that is for dual spec's advice to me since I don't like it). Now every time one of the dps changes to a healer they get to do it for free and it impacts me by impacting my ability to get a group. The difference is, in dual spec they get to have a negative impact on my gameplay with no negative impact on their own (no cost since they can just change specs freely)

 

 

As someone else said, the whole point of dual spec is to make up for the fact that there aren't enough tanks and healers in the game. Since I usually play tanks and Healers getting a group is easy since my role is a commodity, so the ability for someone to not make me a commodity directly impacts my % chance to get a group, which directly impacts my gameplay. This is pure numbers, no feelings or opinions.

 

This is basic statistics here, the fact that someone can fill in a role I fill for free and there is a finite number of group spots means I HAVE TO BE IMPACTED by the other persons class change.

 

The fact that they can impact me for free is what I have the biggest problem with. Again I feel the current system gives them the ability to play how they want, and they have to pay when it has a negative impact on those of us that choose to stick with our decisions.

 

Now i'm only talking about PvE. To me this is a PvE game with PvP bolted onto it as a time killer.

 

If someone wants dual specs for PvE/PvP specs I think that is a different discussion as it could be implemented to force that. E.G. have two specs, when entering the warzone it forces 1 spec, when outside a warzone it forces another. This now no longer affects anyone's ability to get a group, and they can play each half of this game as they want.

[Lethality]

I know you were responding to someone else, but I suggested/support some kind of Legacy Reward tied to maintaining a Spec.

 

What do you think of the idea of there being an Orange Gear Set (at the very least a Chestpiece) for each Talent Tree that only unlocks after you've accumulated a certain amount of time in game as that Spec?

 

(I realize that doesn't reward hybrid specs, but this reward can be in addition to other Legacy Rewards)

 

I think that's a great idea - those kind of incentives would encourage players to become better with their characters, and encourage designers to create content that is balanced and challenging for everyone.

[Varghjerta]

I love how people make up numbers in there head for who is important or how many of what type of player there are in game.

 

1st...The tern "Average player" seems to be popular around here. Please refrain from making assumptions about the general player base because it makes you look ignorant and foolish.

 

2nd... The expectation that I would have to roll the exact same class over again, level to 50 and fully re-gear just so I can have the convenience of not having to constantly respec to pve or pvp is asinine.

 

It also breaks a very large part of the immersion of the game for me. My character is supposed to be this awesome Sith Assassin. Who is a jack of all trades he can dps, he can tank, he can pvp. But with your mentality he can only be Mr awesome at 1 roll and 1 roll only. How dare he be a Sith assassin who likes killing republic scum in pvp and raiding.

Actually Dual specc ruins youre jack of all trades thanks to it creates so you can be a master on more then none

[Sparckus]

Dual spec would eventually affect me through design of the game around the idea that it's a tool that exists.

 

So then you agree a progression bonus for people who stick to the same spec is a good idea?

 

I didn't say it was a good idea, I said I didn't care. Although I would point out that assumes that legacy levels do not grant in game stat or skill advantages.

 

Your very selective with the posts your answering to.

 

Care to reply to this post?

 

I think it can be summed up with this: the availability of dual-specs will lead to lazy game and content design. In some cases, matching the add-on scenario you described above and requiring players to comply or be excluded anyway.

 

Exactly what you proposed with stat bonuses.

 

Oh the hypocrisy .

Edited January 8, 2012 by Sparckus

[Lethality]

We are also talking about a game that actually increases Class Distribution problems when compared to WoW. Instead of 20% of the population needing to be a Tank/Healer for instancing, it's now increased to 25%

 

Yep, and that's a good point rarely cited here - the group size compounds the problem a bit which would suggest more flexibility in character spec'ing.

[RAMunch]

XD

 

Okay, be honest. You're trolling right? You can't be serious...

 

9/10 if you are. Epic comparisons going on here.

 

Hahaha

 

I'm not saying that respeccing/dual spec is the equivalent of Hitler.

I was just trying to tell HoneyBoy that he needed to try harder than throw "things change" at me as if it was a valid argument. :-)

 

Change is not always good is all i'm saying, so give up on the stance that the genre/game/times/industry/people/etc change.

 

Also give up on stances like "it's always been done that way" in referring to WoW/Rift having it. Again just because something has always been done that way doesn't make it right.

 

My allusions were to show the absurdity of the statement that "the industry/genre" changes as being a valid argument even worth typing.

[quazzi]

Yep, and that's a good point rarely cited here - the group size compounds the problem a bit which would suggest more flexibility in character spec'ing.

 

Sooo flexibility in character spec'ing.... i.e. dualspec....... thanks

[HectorCasan]

This is not wow... you cannot respec from a tank to a healer to a dps. You can either be a dps or a hank/healer. There is no Advanced class that allows you to do all 3

 

You guys' only argument against dual speccing is that its lame and it ruins a game... GUESS WHAT IT ALLOWS YOU TO DO BOTH PVP AND PVE in specs that are both utility and damage. Would you want to pvp in a spec that is optimized to pve, no. Would you want to pve in a spec that is optimized to pvp, no. Dual spec would allow you to enjoy the game to its fullest without having to farm 500k creds every day.

 

I understand where you guys are comming from though because I felt the same way about flying in WoW and the 5 specs in rift. Im not asking for that. Only a dual spec system so I can enjoy both pvp and pve.

 

And to the lowbies commenting about 2000 cred respecs, it goes up with both how many times you respec and your level. Respec cost at level 30 was 36k, at level 40 without any respecs, cost was 60k.

 

Im not trying to sound like im raging or anything like that, im just trying to get something fixed that would greatly improve the play-ability of the game for people who like to pvp and pve in different specs. As well as keep the uninformed posts to a minimum.

 

 

I Support dual spec all the way, it really is a compromise, its really hard for me to farm and do stuff, some mobs hit too hard and i have to bring healing companion, the other day i got into combat against 2 silver mods on Ilum, they were both healing each other, and i had healing companion out, i had to force push them apart, do "tricks" working with cooldowns used carbonized stream, pretty much everything in the arsenal to take them down and it was not pretty, the fight lasted about 5 minutes or more.

 

The only thing i have now is that usually if i have to do quests in Ilum i team up with someone else but this really have diminished my "solo abilitys", so if they dont implement it soon, i may be switching to full Juggernaut DPS then.

 

Understand this is really needed for Healers and tanks.

[Lethality]

I didn't say it was a good idea, I said I didn't care. Although I would point out that assumes that legacy levels do not grant in game stat or skill advantages.

 

Your very selective with the posts your answering to.

 

Care to reply to this post?

 

Not sure what there is to reply to there.

 

Stat bonuses for people who don't switch specs isn't that far fetched, and its not excluding anyone. No one is forcing you not to switch specs to take advantage of the bonus, just like no one is forcing you to wear gear. Only the game design constructs force you to do things like that, and if it's good design, it's a good thing.

[RAMunch]

Sooo flexibility in character spec'ing.... i.e. dualspec....... thanks

 

 

flexibility in character specing when referring to a group is not dualspec...dual spec is the exact opposit of flexibility as it enforces just having 2 flavor of them month pure specs (dps/healer, tank/dps, etc).

 

Flexibility in specing means content designed that a group of hybrid specs covering all of thepoints (can't have 4 dps/tanks) should be able to do content.

[Sparckus]

Not sure what there is to reply to there.

 

Stat bonuses for people who don't switch specs isn't that far fetched, and its not excluding anyone. No one is forcing you not to switch specs to take advantage of the bonus, just like no one is forcing you to wear gear. Only the game design constructs force you to do things like that, and if it's good design, it's a good thing.

 

What part of unfair advantage due to time spent do you not understand?

 

If that were implemented, groups would demand it like they do in other games with min/max and addons.

[Kalanur]

Not having Dual Spec is horrible as lvl50 Tank. It's like every guild can only have 1 tank for everything including HM FPs, Raids and PvP. If there is a second tank in the guild he needs to respecc as DD for every raid and back to Tank after the raid so he can do HM FPs.

Rerolling a 2nd char? Reaching lvl 50 easy but to equip 1 Char for Raids, Flashpoints and PvP and then another one for Flashpoints and PvP is just not the right way.

 

It wouldn't be a problem if there weren't this crazy raid encounters. Every stupid encounter needs only one Tank. But not enough, if you have a 2nd tank in the raid you will get problems with the Enrage Timers because he does not do the same damage as with a DD spec.

 

Solotion 1) Make 2 or 3 Chars for everything. Not fine for people who have not much time and also stupid for those who want to max his char, because you need to max 2 or 3.

 

Solution 2) Respec every time. But with 2 Raids a Week it's 4 times respec a week. Try to get that money back if you don't have the right crewskills or not enough time to grind the credits every day.

 

Solution 3) Dual Spec. Whats so wrong about it? People could go as DMG into Raids and Tanking for Flashpoints. Same for Healers.

 

It's a real issue for Guilds, because every Guild only needs one tank... no wait.. MUST have only one tank. Fine for Raiding but try to make flashpoints if you only have one tank and this tank can only make a flashpoint once per day because of lockout. If you have more than one tank, only one of them can join the raid or you will miss dmg and enrage kills you. Yay fun.

[DaxRendar]

As someone else said, the whole point of dual spec is to make up for the fact that there aren't enough tanks and healers in the game. Since I usually play tanks and Healers getting a group is easy since my role is a commodity, so the ability for someone to not make me a commodity directly impacts my % chance to get a group, which directly impacts my gameplay. This is pure numbers, no feelings or opinions.

 

And in the following example, what do you think is the better overall experience for everyone playing the game:

 

10 Tanks

150 DPS

50 Healers

 

No Dual Spec so now you and 39 other Healers and 130 DPS are sitting around ************ about the lack of Tanks and how come nobody has Cr 100,000 to throw away on a respec

 

(and the above breakout is much closer to actual Class Distribution in these kinds of games - most people just don't want to deal with Tanking)

 

In a Dual Spec world, the above situation is improved though still not completely resolved (WoW still suffers from a shortage of Tanks even with Dual Spec - hopefully SWTOR will be different but I'm not holding my breath)

 

Now i'm only talking about PvE. To me this is a PvE game with PvP bolted onto it as a time killer.

 

If someone wants dual specs for PvE/PvP specs I think that is a different discussion as it could be implemented to force that. E.G. have two specs, when entering the warzone it forces 1 spec, when outside a warzone it forces another. This now no longer affects anyone's ability to get a group, and they can play each half of this game as they want.

 

Thank you for at least acknowledging there are other situations and possible solutions