Every group is full of greedy ninja companion looters.

[LogicalPremise]

 

Companions are part of your character.

An upgrade for them is an upgrade for you.

 

FIRST, putting you on ignore so I never group with you or heal you.

 

SECOND, allow me retort.

 

If we are in a four-man, your companion is not a part of your character. Period.

 

If there is a piece of gear I need to upgrade myself, and I roll greed on it, and you roll need on it, fine. That isn't what the OP is talking about.

 

If there are three Jedi Knights and I'm the only BH and an orange blaster pistol comes up, none of the three JK have any right to roll need. They do not need the item. They may want it for their companion, but is it not an upgrade for them. It is for me.

 

For you to roll need on that means now that I only have a 50% shot at it.

 

I guarantee you if I started rolling Need on lightsabers and robe armors someone would freak out. With very good reason.

 

I , for one, am VERY thankful I'm in a great guild where I don't have to deal with this nonsense. To the OP: If I could help you out I would but I doubt we're on the same server.

[Eldren]

Following your logic, why should we even have a "Greed" button in the first place? We end up with a lot of companions, right? Ultimately, everyone would roll "Need" everything for one companion or the other.

 

Your companion didn't even contribute to the group. The other people in your group did, and you are essentially robbing them of their opportunity to upgrade out of pure, unmitigated selfishness.

 

You bring up a valid point: there probably isn't a lot of need in this particular game for a Need/Greed system. I think it should probably boil down to "Roll/Pass", solely because we have a variety of companions.

 

I would want single-handed blaster pistols for Vette, medium armor for myself, light armor for Jaesa and heavy armor for Pierce. It's the nature of the game: this game's difficulty outside of Flashpoints and Operations works under the assumption that you've got a companion with you. If I go up against a Silver equal to my level, I have to start using cooldowns alongside my companion just to survive, because Marauders are on the squishy side. The silver is guaranteed to go down. If I tried to down it without a companion out, I'd be the one going down.

 

Likewise, if my companion isn't in fairly current (for their level) gear, not only I, but my companion, would be guaranteed to go down. If we didn't, it would be because I had to use a medpack to stay alive, and lucked out with a crit at a vital point in the fight.

 

For all intents and purposes, you might as well consider companions to be the same as player characters: they're a resource we use to operate at a baseline level. They fill a variety of roles so that we can synergize well while we're out questing: having a healer to keep me alive while I dish out damage was really useful, and having another damage-dealer in Jaesa right now is likewise useful as things go down faster, even if I wind up having to heal myself between nearly every fight.

 

Companions aren't pets as previous MMOs have offered them. Companions have storylines, they require gear upgrades, and they help us to do what we're designed to do. I hate to draw the WoW comparison, but I will: look at that game's Warlock and Hunter classes, or for more recent info, look at Unholy Death Knights. If the demon/pet/ghoul isn't out, those classes' output severely dips, to the point that while questing, they often have a very difficult, if not outright impossible, time completing their quests (or at least they did before people got so familiar with the game that they could bypass difficulty mechanics through creative play).

 

So yes, if a piece drops that's an upgrade for my companion, I have as much right to stake a claim to it (letting the dice decide who actually gets it) as any other player who was in my group. My companions are a part of me, and at one point or another they're all used, which means all their gear needs to be current. I consider any loot I get for them to be just like loot I get for myself: it's an upgrade.

 

This game is like other MMOs in another fashion: you aren't meant to go through a Flashpoint or Operation just once, get all your role-appropriate upgrades, then never head in again. You keep going through the Flashpoint til you have all the upgrades from it you want. This is largely because sometimes what you want didn't drop, and other times it did but another player got it.

 

You don't pay other players' subscription fees, you don't get to decide how they acquire their loot. If you aren't happy with the behavior of someone in your group, you can leave and put another group together. There's no desertion penalty like there is in WoW. Zone out, stand at the entrance, spend a few minutes putting the crew together, and head on in.

 

You'll get what you want eventually, and it's no one else's business what you do with what you receive.

[Chilliboy]

Simple solution which I don't think has been voiced yet:

 

Make this an option for the group leader. 'Need for PC only' or 'Need for Companions'. Set to PC only as default. Then anyone who plays only with a trusted group can enable companion Need.

 

Before that though, they have to make a system that actually is able to check what the PC can wear.

 

Most sensible post here.

 

Edit: would be nice if those who say they will roll need without a thought for other people in the group could put their name and server in their sig so the less selfish can avoid grouping with you.

 

Yes, my toons aren't in my sig because I don't do this so no need.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Chilliboy

[alrighto]

Look, here's the bottom line: if a piece drops that's an upgrade for my companion but not for me, I'm going to roll Need on it.

 

Hell, I'll even roll Need on it if it's four players in the group. My companion needs to keep their gear updated just like I do, so their output is acceptable while I'm out questing on my own. I spend the majority of my time questing on my own. I'm in a Flashpoint for 30 minutes tops.

 

Companions are extensions of the player characters. It isn't going to change. I'm not going to roll Need on an item that requires a specific class and alignment unless I'm both of those things. But if a piece drops for, say, Jaesa (light armor with Endurance and Willpower), and it doesn't put a class or alignment requirement on it, and it's an upgrade from what she currently has in that slot, I'm going to roll Need on it.

 

I was in there, I helped down the boss, I have as much right to a piece of gear as any of the other players. It's no one else's business what I do with that gear.

 

No invites for you

[DarkoDon]

Look, here's the bottom line: if a piece drops that's an upgrade for my companion but not for me, I'm going to roll Need on it.

 

Hell, I'll even roll Need on it if it's four players in the group. My companion needs to keep their gear updated just like I do, so their output is acceptable while I'm out questing on my own. I spend the majority of my time questing on my own. I'm in a Flashpoint for 30 minutes tops.

 

Companions are extensions of the player characters. It isn't going to change. I'm not going to roll Need on an item that requires a specific class and alignment unless I'm both of those things. But if a piece drops for, say, Jaesa (light armor with Endurance and Willpower), and it doesn't put a class or alignment requirement on it, and it's an upgrade from what she currently has in that slot, I'm going to roll Need on it.

 

I was in there, I helped down the boss, I have as much right to a piece of gear as any of the other players. It's no one else's business what I do with that gear.

 

 

YuuuuuuuuUUUUUUP! +1

 

Though I'd like to add that I would only roll for companions if noone else wants it for themselves. I'm jus tthat kinda guy, cause honestly, I'm gonna farm those flashpoints and ops till im satisfied, and even more for friends to get loot, so loot was never a bother for me, the game is easy enough as it is.

[Huskeonkel]

A solution to this issue could be to add another button on the roll panel.

 

First a "Player Need" button that supersedes all the others. (Only active for the class that uses the specific item)

 

Then a "Companion Need" button that only supersedes "Greed" button.

 

And finally the "Greed" button.

 

Wouldn't that fix the issue?

 

Of course people who like to need on everything can still beat the "greeders" using the new button, but at least the player characters can get what is rightfully theirs.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Huskeonkel

[Varus_Praetor]

Look, here's the bottom line: if a piece drops that's an upgrade for my companion but not for me, I'm going to roll Need on it.

 

Hell, I'll even roll Need on it if it's four players in the group. My companion needs to keep their gear updated just like I do, so their output is acceptable while I'm out questing on my own. I spend the majority of my time questing on my own. I'm in a Flashpoint for 30 minutes tops.

 

Companions are extensions of the player characters. It isn't going to change. I'm not going to roll Need on an item that requires a specific class and alignment unless I'm both of those things. But if a piece drops for, say, Jaesa (light armor with Endurance and Willpower), and it doesn't put a class or alignment requirement on it, and it's an upgrade from what she currently has in that slot, I'm going to roll Need on it.

 

I was in there, I helped down the boss, I have as much right to a piece of gear as any of the other players. It's no one else's business what I do with that gear.

 

And I will kick you from the group, demand that you be kicked if I'm not the leader, or leave the group myself if you can't be removed. I don't pay a monthly fee to run instances with people like you. In all situations you'd be immediately put on my ignore list.

 

Bottom line and no, I don't expect you to modify your behavior because of my reaction. But if we're given an infinite ignore list that would ignore the account, not the character, this situation would resolve itself eventually as most of the ninja looters would be stuck grouping with others of their kind.

[J-Sheridan]

Take a lot of companions on raiding so you need that extra gear for them? Instance and pvp? Yup end of the discussion because you'd be kicked out of the group.

 

Won't be long till you are shunned have fun not finding groups!

 

Blah blah blah, you will be kicked nonsense is worthless trite.

 

I find groups just fine when I want to... go figure how you magically decide to paint me as one of the people rolling Need of companions.

 

How wonderfully trollish of you.

 

 

You "Raid" with companions for almost the entire length of the game.

 

Take alot of players with you on every quest from start to finish, do you ?

 

Companion Usage > Player involvement.

End of Story.

 

Grow up and get with the times, companions are part of your character and a major component of the game as such the system works fine.

You want to make up custom rules for your own private little niche groups then do them yourself.

 

Expecting BW to compensate for your own inadequate abilities to manage your own groups and the people your bringing into them is hilariously sad. Get some friends rather than PUG... then you wont have this problem... right ?

[Aliozyn]

Following your logic, why should we even have a "Greed" button in the first place? We end up with a lot of companions, right? Ultimately, everyone would roll "Need" everything for one companion or the other.

 

Your companion didn't even contribute to the group. The other people in your group did. They helped you get through the content and down the bosses. By rolling on items for your companion without asking if someone else actually needs it for themselves, you are essentially robbing them of their opportunity to upgrade out of pure, unmitigated selfishness. You are wasting their time because you are too self-centered to even acknowledge how piggish your behavior is.

 

THIS^

100 Times THIS!

[Reevax]

A solution to this issue could be to add another button on the roll panel.

 

First a "Player Need" button that supersedes all the others. (Only active for the class that uses the specific item)

 

Then a "Companion Need" button that only supersedes "Greed" button.

 

And finally the "Greed" button.

 

Wouldn't that fix the issue?

 

Of course people who like to need on everything can still beat the "greeders" using the new button, but at least the player characters can get what is rightfully theirs.

 

I was going to post just that, maybe it's too simple and hurts the community lol

[DarkoDon]

Can't you just set the loot rules? Not sure haven't tried, but make a master looter. Anyone who doesn't wanna go into that group with it set, so be it, find another person that will.

[ShaddoGaming]

I had this happen to me the other day. Dude was about 6 levels higher than the flashpoint and I was right on the same level as the gear. It was an orange lightsaber drop in Athiss and me as a Sith Marauder needed the crap out of it. I was the only force user in the group and the high level guy was an operative. Dude rolled need on it and won the roll. When I asked him why he said his companion could use it. I asked him, "Are you sure because you are 6 levels higher than the item?" He then replied, "Well I am doing you guys a big favor by being in this group, so how much is it worth to you?" And then.... I got mad, bro.

[imtrick]

I have an extremely good understanding of why people are opposed to it having played WoW. They believe it destroyed the community as there are no consequences for a persons actions. So please don't patronise me.

 

Perhaps, instead of insulting someones understanding, it might be more helpful to point out why you are against LFD.

 

Hey, you were the one that said (and I quote again): "Exactly. When this type of behaviour is rampant already, the main argument of those opposed to LFD falls apart. Some people will be greedy and selfish whatever way a group is formed."

 

I'm sorry if telling you you're wrong, at least in my case, seems patronizing to you. It'd be easily avoided if you didn't make blanket statements like that about other people's motives when you clearly either don't understand them, or choose to misrepresent them.

 

And again, in this post, you state why people are against LFD systems, and again only hit on one item list of the potential problems they cause. There are plenty of other reasons. I won't bother repeating them all here since it'd be off-topic for this thread, but as I've already mentioned, I don't give a hoot about "ninja looters," so you're overgeneralizing.

Edited January 5, 2012 by imtrick

[Baaddare]

No thanks. One of the things I love about the current system is that I can give my companions my hand-me-downs. This would destroy much of that.

 

Then again, I really don't care for loot drama, and if someone really thinks he need some drop for his companion, I won't throw a fit if he rolls on it. It's far easier to just make a personal note that the guy's a bit of a jerk and go on to better things. Then again, unlike the OP, I've never had this happen to me yet, even though I've run a lot of flashpoints. Either he's exaggerating, or he's got some really awful luck.

 

Considering the part about George Lucas somehow being responsible for companion AI, I have to wonder how much of what's been going on he really understands.

 

had it happen to me I just laughed to myself shook my head and waited for the run to be over.

[Eldren]

FIRST, putting you on ignore so I never group with you or heal you.

If a person is sensible, they don't make their forum alias the same as their character, and even if they do, the chances of you being on their server are fairly minimal. In short, put them on ignore all you like, it isn't going to affect anything.

 

SECOND, allow me retort.

 

If we are in a four-man, your companion is not a part of your character. Period.

You're right, if there are four players, then no one's companions are out. It doesn't mean those companions aren't a part of their character, it just means they're not being used at the moment. However, if items drop that are upgrades for their companions, and one of their companions can actually use the item, they have every right to roll Need on it for that reason. They, as a player, helped down the boss in question. They, as a player, thus have an equal right to stake a claim to a given item. What they do with it after that is none of your business.

 

If there is a piece of gear I need to upgrade myself, and I roll greed on it, and you roll need on it, fine. That isn't what the OP is talking about.

 

If there are three Jedi Knights and I'm the only BH and an orange blaster pistol comes up, none of the three JK have any right to roll need. They do not need the item. They may want it for their companion, but is it not an upgrade for them. It is for me.

If the item specifically says "Bounty Hunter", then you're right, the three Jedi Knights have no reason to roll on the item. Not only can they not use it, none of their companions can either, as companions technically don't have a character class (even if they mimic existing classes). But if that blaster pistol has no class or alignment requirements, and one of their companions uses blaster pistols, then they have every right to roll on it. They helped down the boss, they have an equal claim to the loot. Since everyone in the group has an equal claim, the dice decide who it goes to.

 

For you to roll need on that means now that I only have a 50% shot at it.

 

I guarantee you if I started rolling Need on lightsabers and robe armors someone would freak out. With very good reason.

You're right, there are people who would freak out. I'm not one of them. Is one of your companions someone who can use a lightsaber? Does the lightsaber that just dropped not have a class or alignment requirement? Then that item is considered a valid upgrade for "your character", i.e., you. Me, I wouldn't care: I play a Marauder, and both my lightsabers are orange items. For the most part I don't really see what they look like since the blades are more prominent than the hilts, and I can adjust the color of the blades with a few credits or some time spent crafting. In the interim, I use mods to keep my lightsabers up to date for my level. The only time I personally will roll on a lightsaber drop is if it has a color crystal I want, or some other mod that's an upgrade from what I currently have. After I pull the mods out, I'm likely vendoring the saber itself.

 

It's time to just accept that people are going to roll for upgrades for their companions. It's a feature this particular game has that previous MMOs haven't had. They're more than pets, they're just shy of actual characters. They have gear requirements in order to stay relevant.

 

It's one thing if one of those Jedi Knights you're talking about rolled on an orange blaster pistol that required someone to be a Light Side IV Bounty Hunter. The JKs can't use the blaster at all, nor can any of their companions, who lack both an alignment and a class. At that point, if one of the JKs rolled on it, you'd be perfectly justified in attempting to kick them from your group, or leaving on your own and forming another group.

 

But if one of them rolls on a blaster pistol that has no class or alignment requirements, they're just fine. I'll do it for Vette, my own blaster pistol-wielding companion. She needs new blasters, and once I have two orange blasters in her hands, then I'm only rolling on additional drops like that if they have mods I need.

 

But I helped down the boss, I have a right to roll on any items I personally want, and don't require your permission or approval to do so, nor am I required to even start to explain to you why I rolled Need on it. It doesn't matter to you that I might vendor it, or want it for a companion, or maybe just like the way its text looks.

 

Once you get out of a sense of entitlement to gear in group content, you'll do fine. It isn't worth getting bent out of shape over.

[Caelrie]

But but but...

 

We were utterly assured by the "experts" around here that this kind of behavior would never happen in SWTOR because there was no LFD tool!! Communities are self-policing, they insist! People won't do it because they get a "bad rep", they insist!

 

I'm sad that I was right and they were wrong. This behavior has nothing whatsoever to do with a LFG tool.

[imtrick]

A solution to this issue could be to add another button on the roll panel.

 

First a "Player Need" button that supersedes all the others. (Only active for the class that uses the specific item)

 

Then a "Companion Need" button that only supersedes "Greed" button.

 

And finally the "Greed" button.

 

Wouldn't that fix the issue?

 

Of course people who like to need on everything can still beat the "greeders" using the new button, but at least the player characters can get what is rightfully theirs.

 

A "companion need" button would be useless, at least at the point where each player has companions of essentially every class. It might have some effect at lower levels, but at higher ones it would be pointless, since everyone could "companion need" on everything.

[alrighto]

Scenario:

 

Item X - Boss X

 

Player 1: rolls need on an item he cant use but his companion can, wins it

Player 2: rolls need cause its an upgrade for him, gets angry he didnt get it

 

Item X - Boss X

 

Player 1: rolls need cause its an upgrade for him, gets angry he didnt get it

Player 2: rolls need on an item he cant use but his companion can, wins it

 

Result : Player 1 and Player 2 in the group still has crap gear but their companions have really good gear!

 

Awesome!

[Jaku]

Likewise, if my companion isn't in fairly current (for their level) gear, not only I, but my companion, would be guaranteed to go down. If we didn't, it would be because I had to use a medpack to stay alive, and lucked out with a crit at a vital point in the fight.

 

Buy a moddable set for your companion, put level 49 mods in them, and they're good to go.

 

Anything else would just be overkill, it's not like they're raiding with you.

[J-Sheridan]

I had this happen to me the other day. Dude was about 6 levels higher than the flashpoint and I was right on the same level as the gear. It was an orange lightsaber drop in Athiss and me as a Sith Marauder needed the crap out of it. I was the only force user in the group and the high level guy was an operative. Dude rolled need on it and won the roll. When I asked him why he said his companion could use it. I asked him, "Are you sure because you are 6 levels higher than the item?" He then replied, "Well I am doing you guys a big favor by being in this group, so how much is it worth to you?" And then.... I got mad, bro.

 

1) Your own fault for grouping up with someone you didnt know

 

2) Your own fault for not getting the warning signs with a high level rolling into the instance

 

3) Orange items are effectively leveless due to being upgradable and as such EVERYONE will be hunting for them for companions or vanity

 

4) Learn to ask what the loot rules are before you start the group stuff, that way everyone will be on the same page and if they dont like it... leave

 

5) Lets see how you feel when you hit 50 and have done the vanity / orange grind for your companions

[imtrick]

I'm sad that I was right and they were wrong. This behavior has nothing whatsoever to do with a LFG tool.

 

People were going to be jerkwads with or without an LFD tool. As far as that particular argument goes, the idea is that, without an LFD tool, you know who just did that thing you dislike. Eventually, after they do it several times (and repeating the bad behavior is a critical part how this is supposed to work, by the way), people learn that player X is a jerk. Word gets out, and eventually X can't find a group any more. Before that happens, though, player X needs to be a big enough jerk that people catch on. Not having an LFD tool isn't supopsed to prevent that kind of behavior. In fact, the theory relies on the jerk doing jerky things repeatedly.

 

The lack of an LFD system was never supposed to stop this behavior, according to the people that say it'll help. It was supposed to eventually allow consequences. You obviously can't have consequences for bad behavior that never happens, can you? The idea is that, over time, bad behavior would go down as people realize you can't get away with it forever. A few weeks or so into the game is far too earliy to be looking for the payoff; it's a long-term thing.

 

And, again, this is only one of many reasons people don't like LFD tools. I don't get why so many people think it's the only thing.

Edited January 5, 2012 by imtrick

[alrighto]

Lets say you get a really good piece of gear that BOTH you and your companion can use

 

Do you:

 

A) Give it to character's companion ?

 

B) Give it to main character

 

If its A) then its fine thats how you play your companion gear > your own gear

but its B) only when you're not in a party then you're a selfish pig

Edited January 5, 2012 by alrighto

[Eldren]

And I will kick you from the group, demand that you be kicked if I'm not the leader, or leave the group myself if you can't be removed. I don't pay a monthly fee to run instances with people like you. In all situations you'd be immediately put on my ignore list.

 

Bottom line and no, I don't expect you to modify your behavior because of my reaction. But if we're given an infinite ignore list that would ignore the account, not the character, this situation would resolve itself eventually as most of the ninja looters would be stuck grouping with others of their kind.

 

That is, of course, your choice. I wouldn't begrudge it to you. If you're going to get that bent out of shape, you probably wouldn't be someone I'd want to run with again anyway. We both win.

 

You're right, you don't pay a monthly fee to run group content with people like me, or with people like anyone. You pay a monthly fee to have access to the game. How you access it past that is entirely up to you, and is in no way mandated by other players. You're the only one who can control how your game experience is.

 

You personally believe that companions should only be upgraded if no players need the upgrade. I'm fine with that. I don't think less of you because of it.

 

Me, if I'm in group content, I'm in there for two reasons: to see the content, and to have a chance at upgrades for my character.

 

My companions are part of my character, and required for me to perform at a baseline level while I'm out there questing. Since they require gear, this means they require upgrades to continue being relevant while I'm out questing. If that gear isn't kept up to date, then they can't perform like I need them to, which means my own progression is then halted. I can't down quest mobs as I should, I can't down quest bosses as I should, and all of a sudden my entire experience in the game is ruined.

 

Or would be if a perspective like yours were officially implemented in the game. As it stands, it isn't. If an piece drops that's an upgrade for one of my companions, I'm rolling Need on it.

 

You should feel justified in kicking, say, a Sith Marauder rolling Need on a blaster pistol that lists "Light Side III" and "Bounty Hunter" as requirements. The Marauder can't use it, nor can any of the Marauder's companions, who all lack both an alignment and a character class.

 

From my perspective, you aren't justified attempting to kick that same Marauder from a group if they roll on a blaster whose only listed requirements are a minimum level. They aren't going to use the blaster, but a couple of their companions could make use of it.

 

It's simple: it's all for "a character", but in this case, "character" means more than the avatar you directly move around the game. It incorporates all the avatar's companions.

[Caelrie]

People were going to be jerkwads with or without an LFD tool. As far as that particular argument goes, the idea is that, without an LFD tool, you know who just did that thing you like. Eventually, after they do it several times (and repeating the bad behavior is a critical part how this is supposed to work, by the way), people learn that player X is a jerk. Word gets out, and eventually X can't find a group any more. Before that happens, though, player X needs to be a big enough jerk that people catch on.

 

The lack of an LFD system was never supposed to stop this behavior, according to the people that say it'll help. It was supposed to eventually allow consequences. You obviously can't have consequences for bad behavior that never happens, can you?

 

And, again, this is only one of many reasons people don't like LFD tools. I don't get why so many people think it's the only thing.

 

Because many of you insisted it was the only reason. The rest of what you wrote is a flat-out lie. The anti-LFD group insisted up and down that this behavior doesn't exist in an MMORPG without an LFD tool. Period.

[SuperomegaOP]

sorry to say but copy wows loot system...

 

it similar to the OPs suggestion but it has better points

 

cant NEED on gear you CANT use but they give you a 2 hour time limit to trade items even if they are bind on pickup, so guild runs can still work if some1 wants a specific piece of gear that they cant use for whatever reason

 

id like to hear some1 say that this system is a bad idea