A in depth look of why Synthweaving is a waste of time(And the mess Bioware has made)

[Hyiero]

Okay I want to make an in depth,or at least as in depth as I can go from my experience so far.

 

*I am speaking nothing on synthweaving raid patterns or even the blue patterns you get from investigation, I am using the chest piece you buy from the vendor for level 47, the heavy armor tank chest piece to be precise. Because it is the best "tank" chest synthweaving can make outside finding a schematic.*

 

Anyway I'll begin

 

Okay first lets take a look at comparing the PVP champion tank chest with the Purple version of the tank chest piece (The purple is the "tank" version of the purples).I am leaving out the expertise on the chest. Because I am looking at the two strictly from a pve stand point.

 

Champion Chest

_______________

 

836 armor

+75 str

+94 end

+48 shield rating

+53 defense

 

Veracity Memory Fiber Body Armor

____________________________

 

752 armor

+42 str

+68 end

+68 shield rating

+ 64 defense

 

Now assuming I made the purple chest augmented and threw a +28 endurance augment in it, giving it a total of 96 endurance,lets look what I get if I'm wearing the made chest compared to the PVP chest

 

If Im wearing Memory Fiber Chest

_______________

- 84 armor

- 33 str

+ 2 end

+ 20 shield rating

+ 11 defense

 

Now lets compare the time and resources it took to get the two. For numbers sake lets say it takes you 15 minutes(Actually probably lower) to achieve 70 war-zone commendations. Doing PVP all day yesterday I had war-zones pop one after another, so lets say that there is no break in between. That is 280 war-zone commendations in 1 hour. Now lets say you make the conversion of war-zone commendations to mercenary commendations that's 30 to 10 ratio. I got my Chest in 4 purple bags that I bought off the pvp vendor. So I will use this as my ratio for that. So if you get 1 purple piece you can use in 1 of every 4 bags you have to play 12 hours of pvp in order to get your one piece of purple. But the resources you used to get this piece was none. You actually made money while doing this.

 

 

Now lets look at the Memory Fiber chest. Okay for me it took, 302 break downs in order to get the right "tank" purple chest, cause there are 5 different versions of the purple and you have a chance to get "You already know this schematic", which is the most retarded thing I have ever heard. Okay now lets say I actually spent the time to farm all the mats needed to make 302 blue chest pieces. Lets look at the total mats needed to craft 302 blue chests. It take 1208 blue metals, 1208 artifacts,1812 power crystals, 604 cloths(fuel). Lets say I didn't waste any time sending my guys out to get the cloths I just bought them off the crew skill vendor, it would cost 151,000 credits to buy the cloths required.

 

Lets also say I can send all 5 of my companions out the entire time I'm doing this and they can all go on Rich Yield Metal missions....which we all know is not true,because usually if you get lucky you will get a Rich and a Moderate. Anyway if I send my companions on Rich yield missions for metals and they return with 8 metals every time,these missions take 40 minutes a piece. Every 40 minutes I am returning 40 blue metals,so the total time to get the blues needed is 1240 minutes, close to 21 hours.

 

To get the artifacts lets say the same thing every-time I send my companions out they come back with 10 artifacts, keep in mind this is ******** again because their is 2 artifacts and power crystals at this level so sometimes they don't even return with the ones you need. Anyway I send all 5 of my companions out on rich yield artifact missions to get 50 artifacts every 25 minutes. That's 604 minutes to get the artifacts I need, another 10 hours.

 

Power Crystals same thing for artifacts, I send all 5 of my companions out on rich yield power missions to get 50 power crystals every 25 minutes. That's 906 minutes to get the crystals i need which is another 15 hours. So if you the system worked like this,which is doesn't and you probably need to multiple my final time number by 5 to get an accurate measure on how much time it would take to get all the materials. Anyway the final number is 46 hours to get the materials needed to make 302 chest pieces.

 

Now we have to make the chest pieces in order to break down to get the purple. Each chest takes 22 minutes to make by 10,000 affection companions, so to make 302 it would take 1329 minutes, which is around 22 hours. So it would take you 68 hours of straight sending out your players for materials and getting them to craft in order to get the chest piece that arguably isn't much better than the pvp if any!

 

O yea don't let me forget resources spent,lets say every mission is 2,000 credits to run that is a total of 302,000 for your metals; 242,000 for artifacts; 362,000 for crystals; 151,000 for fuel, so your total spent just was 1,057,000 credits spent.

 

Let me sum it up for people who don't want to read

_________________________________________

 

It would take 68 hours and 1,057,000 credits for a synthweaver (By the way if you didn't read the hours are no where near true,you should probably multiply them by 5, so closer to 200+ hours) to make a chest that is arguably not even better than the PVP Champion chest, it would take a person pvping 12 hours while earning a profit to get....Bioware I am sorry but this is quite possibly the most retarded thing I have ever seen.

 

Please Bioware take a long hard look at your system and realize you ****ed it up quite bad,and its gonna take more than a patch or two to fix what you have done....

[Rhinoplat]

This is why I want you to craft Orange gear with critted Augment slots, so I can choose how my stat layouts go.

 

I really believe that End Game Crafting will be about the augment slots, and not what you get from your trainer or even from purple raid drops.

 

I understand your frustration in not being able to craft equivalent gear to the PvP gear and it only gets worse if you compare the Rakata gear to what you can craft. The Rakata gear is going to be statistically better if you are leaving out Expertise in your analysis.

 

From using a set of +cunning gear (for ops) I have seen the Rakata and BattleMaster have the same Power/Crit/Accuracy per piece, but the Rakata gear is superior in Cunning and Endurance.

 

If you are really making comparisons of PvE gear, then you need to make them between Rakata and what you can make.

[Perj]

Crafting is not really designed to make a single item for oneself. It is intended to be exclusive and the compensation is the ability to sell on the AH or equip guild members. Comparing the time to obtain the recipe with the time to get the PvP item is not really fair. I haven't played a MMO yet where crafting one item just for myself is a good investment in time and money and it shouldn't. Otherwise, everyone would just craft gear for themselves and there would be zero incentive to use the AH or even group.

 

That said, some crafting disciplines could use some love, I agree.

[Hyiero]

Yea, I agree with you and I will get to comparing that, I just wanted to make a quick comparison that everyone can attain easily. AKA- PVP Gear.

[Sun-Runner]

Please Bioware take a long hard look at your system and realize you ****ed it up quite bad,and its gonna take more than a patch or two to fix what you have done....

 

Crafting is supposed to be optional. Optional means that you don't have to take it. If crafting was useful, you'd have to take it for the advantages it gives; it wouldn't be optional anymore.

 

Thereby ...

 

Working as intended.

 

[Dubblebass]

This is why I want you to craft Orange gear with critted Augment slots, so I can choose how my stat layouts go.

 

I really believe that End Game Crafting will be about the augment slots, and not what you get from your trainer or even from purple raid drops.

 

I understand your frustration in not being able to craft equivalent gear to the PvP gear and it only gets worse if you compare the Rakata gear to what you can craft. The Rakata gear is going to be statistically better if you are leaving out Expertise in your analysis.

 

From using a set of +cunning gear (for ops) I have seen the Rakata and BattleMaster have the same Power/Crit/Accuracy per piece, but the Rakata gear is superior in Cunning and Endurance.

 

If you are really making comparisons of PvE gear, then you need to make them between Rakata and what you can make.

 

I Also feel that end game will be more about slotting; augment and mods. I have an artificer and a cybertech for this very reason. I haven't raided yet so I cannot compare gear, but based on what I have experienced while leveling, I would rather have the orange pieces and choose how the stats are proportioned.

[Scoobings]

Are you comparing the blue from the schematic? Or are you comparing the PvP gear to a T2 Mastercraft version of that item?

 

Those stats seem really low for a T2 Mastercraft... the ones I've seen are better than pvp gear.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Scoobings

[Hyiero]

Crafting is not really designed to make a single item for oneself. It is intended to be exclusive and the compensation is the ability to sell on the AH or equip guild members. Comparing the time to obtain the recipe with the time to get the PvP item is not really fair. I haven't played a MMO yet where crafting one item just for myself is a good investment in time and money and it shouldn't. Otherwise, everyone would just craft gear for themselves and there would be zero incentive to use the AH or even group.

 

That said, some crafting disciplines could use some love, I agree.

 

Okay but you have to see the point I'm making in the post,the only purple recipe worth making for that Chest is the "tank" version of purple which if you harvested everything yourself in essence would take you 100+ hours and over a million credits to get,but no tank is gonna buy a purple chest that is +11 def +20 shield rating better than the pvp gear they can easily attain and with out spending any credits on, so the investment I made to get that piece of gear,just like any of the other purples goes to complete waste. It litterly is pissing money and time away, I will never see a million credit return on that chest piece, nor would I see it on any other item I could craft and take the time to break down to get the best purple schematic for it.

[Hyiero]

Crafting is supposed to be optional. Optional means that you don't have to take it. If crafting was useful, you'd have to take it for the advantages it gives; it wouldn't be optional anymore.

 

Thereby ...

 

Working as intended.

 

 

Optional means you can buy crafted gear from the people who crafted,not ooo crafting is a waste of time and credits,but its optional if you want to waste your own time and credits,it will yield nothing though, so have fun. Its like saying its optional to have a car to get to work 20 miles away,or I can ride with my buddy if I pay for gas every 2 weeks....you see the point.

[Hyiero]

Are you comparing the blue from the schematic? Or are you comparing the PvP gear to a T2 Mastercraft version of that item?

 

Those stats seem really low for a T2 Mastercraft... the ones I've seen are better than pvp gear.

 

I said I wasn't comparing the schematic version at the top of the post,it is just comparing the vendor version of the 47 heavy armor tank chest, for the schematic, you are going to be wasting more time and more money, and it wont be better than your raid gear you will get long before you craft this, Im comparing what is easy attainable purples for everyone(pvp gear) and what easy purples synthweavers can make(vendor bought recipes). The time and effort put in to sythnweaving doesnt yield anywhere near the time and effort put into pvp.

[Erliandur]

I understand your frustration getting that particularly "nice" chest piece... However, I would guess you might have a quite nice market selling various versions of your lvl 47 purple chest (if reasonable priced) to quite a lot of characters levelling more slow or alts with cash from a rich main etc.

[Erliandur]

I said I wasn't comparing the schematic version at the top of the post,it is just comparing the vendor version of the 47 heavy armor tank chest, for the schematic, you are going to be wasting more time and more money, and it wont be better than your raid gear you will get long before you craft this, Im comparing what is easy attainable purples for everyone(pvp gear) and what easy purples synthweavers can make(vendor bought recipes). The time and effort put in to sythnweaving doesnt yield anywhere near the time and effort put into pvp.

don't underestimate the long term value of having these recipes to new guild members and potential raiders etc. Everything is not as obvious as it might look just now with this relative new game. We could also hope for a bit more love by Bioware, i.e. perks just for us in form of some nice raid quality BoP pieces.

[Scoobings]

I said I wasn't comparing the schematic version at the top of the post,it is just comparing the vendor version of the 47 heavy armor tank chest, for the schematic, you are going to be wasting more time and more money, and it wont be better than your raid gear you will get long before you craft this, Im comparing what is easy attainable purples for everyone(pvp gear) and what easy purples synthweavers can make(vendor bought recipes). The time and effort put in to sythnweaving doesnt yield anywhere near the time and effort put into pvp.

 

I'm a little confused by this paragraph but if I'm to understand you, then you are comparing an epic schematic, not REd, to the PVP gear. To which I would say... yeah of course it's not as good.

 

It's easier for YOU to get PVP gear than it is to go through and RE and make a really good chest, absolutely. However, if they are interested in raiding and not in PVP it's easier for THEM to buy your chest piece and just be done with it. That's the function that crafting serves, and has pretty much always served, in MMOs. A platform for people to use currency to be ready for raiding.

 

You understand that if you could just buy a schematic and make armor better than what's on a PVP vendor with little effort behind it, then there would be no reason to PVP right?

 

 

If I'm misunderstanding you, then I apologize.

 

*edit*

I'm not an expert on this by any means, I'm just trying to figure this out along with everyone else.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Scoobings

[Hyiero]

I understand your frustration getting that particularly "nice" chest piece... However, I would guess you might have a quite nice market selling various versions of your lvl 47 purple chest (if reasonable priced) to quite a lot of characters levelling more slow or alts with cash from a rich main etc.

 

I concur I could sell them, but am I going to make my million credits and if I do how long will I take to eventually see a profit if ever? Im not really upset at the system, I like how it yields rewards to the crafters that spend time crafting(IE Reverse Engineering),but I just don't like how the system makes gear so easly attainable that is better than the gear I spent,6 days making,and that is me buying over half the mats needed to make the chests. Not to mention would I have just made more just selling the raw mats?

[Hyiero]

I'm a little confused by this paragraph but if I'm to understand you, then you are comparing an epic schematic, not REd, to the PVP gear. To which I would say... yeah of course it's not as good.

 

It's easier for YOU to get PVP gear than it is to go through and RE and make a really good chest, absolutely. However, if they are interested in raiding and not in PVP it's easier for THEM to buy your chest piece and just be done with it. That's the function that crafting serves, and has pretty much always served, in MMOs. A platform for people to use currency to be ready for raiding.

 

You understand that if you could just buy a schematic and make armor better than what's on a PVP vendor with little effort behind it, then there would be no reason to PVP right?

 

 

If I'm misunderstanding you, then I apologize.

 

*edit*

I'm not an expert on this by any means, I'm just trying to figure this out along with everyone else.

 

You misunderstood, I am buying the original recipe from the vendor, then I RE'd that into Blue which is T1, and then I RE'd that into the Purple T2 and I am comparing the Purple RE'd T2 verison too the stock PVP gear.

[Hyiero]

don't underestimate the long term value of having these recipes to new guild members and potential raiders etc. Everything is not as obvious as it might look just now with this relative new game. We could also hope for a bit more love by Bioware, i.e. perks just for us in form of some nice raid quality BoP pieces.

 

I think you overestimate the long term potential, I'll use rift as my example, in 5 months from the game coming out, all of the T1 gear that dropped from the greenscale raid(first raid instance) was rotting because the new gear, that came out with in 5 months put it to shame and we could 10 man this 20 man raid instance. So if this MMO is like all to date post-WOW they will just add in new gear within 6months that shatters all the rest, without raising the level cap making alot of the crafters gear even more pointless

Edited January 4, 2012 by Hyiero

[Scoobings]

I concur I could sell them, but am I going to make my million credits and if I do how long will I take to eventually see a profit if ever? Im not really upset at the system, I like how it yields rewards to the crafters that spend time crafting(IE Reverse Engineering),but I just don't like how the system makes gear so easly attainable that is better than the gear I spent,6 days making,and that is me buying over half the mats needed to make the chests. Not to mention would I have just made more just selling the raw mats?

 

If you're buying your mats it's going to be expensive to be sure. There's a reason Daisy owns dairy farms...

 

If you want to do it cost effectively you won't be able to rush to the finish line, but like all things in life the more money you throw at the development the faster you will get it, and the less competition you will have, so the more you can sell it for when you first get it.

[Scoobings]

You misunderstood, I am buying the original recipe from the vendor, then I RE'd that into Blue which is T1, and then I RE'd that into the Purple T2 and I am comparing the Purple RE'd T2 verison too the stock PVP gear.

 

Maybe I'm incorrect, but I thought T1 was the first level of purple, and T2 was the SECOND level of purple that you get after REing epics. Or am I really this misinformed?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=45866

 

*edit*

 

Yeah I read that wrong. My mistake, you're right. You said it's a level 47 item though right? Why not run the comparison with a level 49? The previous examples I've seen of Mastercraft gear was better than PVP gear by a substantial amount...

Edited January 5, 2012 by Scoobings

[Hyiero]

If you're buying your mats it's going to be expensive to be sure. There's a reason Daisy owns dairy farms...

 

If you want to do it cost effectively you won't be able to rush to the finish line, but like all things in life the more money you throw at the development the faster you will get it, and the less competition you will have, so the more you can sell it for when you first get it.

 

That is why in my original post I made all the numbers from if you actually spent the time to send your people running out on the missions, and buying nothing off the market, you are still going to need to sell over a million of credits worth of the chests just to break a profit, and if people compare the 2 chests, the pvp one looks better and is better unless I sell the augmented purple,which will give the crafted chest a slight advantage, but once again its 1 in every 10 chests that I will augment. Me losing out on my profit in the end, the none augmented chests will prolly sell for as much as it cost to make them, and people will wear those till they get pvp gear.

[Hyiero]

Maybe I'm incorrect, but I thought T1 was the first level of purple, and T2 was the SECOND level of purple that you get after REing epics. Or am I really this misinformed?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=45866

 

*edit*

 

Yeah I read that wrong. My mistake, you're right. You said it's a level 47 item though right? Why not run the comparison with a level 49? The previous examples I've seen of Mastercraft gear was better than PVP gear by a substantial amount...

 

You probably saw the the schematic version of the synthweaving gear, which is level 50 and can be broken down into double purple, but I am not comparing those,cause I can't speak for one accurately the time it took since I have yet to double purple any of the schematic sythnweaving schematics. And the 47 chest is a better raw tanking chest than the 49 since the 49 does not give shield rating and the 49 chest only adds 2 endurance and 2 str over the 47 with an increase in 20 armor

[Hyiero]

Also if I was to compare the schematic's for synthweaving that are level 50, you are probably (random guess) looking at 400+ hours, along with 3+ million credits to get the T3 version that is the best. Not including you have to find the schematics before you can start doing that. Because the schematic versions take more of each mat and there is no rich yield underworld trading missions for metals, only abundant and moderate. So the most blue you can get at any time is 6 and that is if you crit and get purple along with it.

[Scoobings]

You probably saw the the schematic version of the synthweaving gear, which is level 50 and can be broken down into double purple, but I am not comparing those,cause I can't speak for one accurately the time it took since I have yet to double purple any of the schematic sythnweaving schematics. And the 47 chest is a better raw tanking chest than the 49 since the 49 does not give shield rating and the 49 chest only adds 2 endurance and 2 str over the 47 with an increase in 20 armor

 

Fair enough. OK I re-read your OP because I felt like my grasp of it was slipping, and you're right I totally misunderstood you.

 

The crafted chestpiece IS better for PVE though and that's the thing. Someone who is min-maxing (and especially a pver who hates pvp) is going to buy your chestpiece.

 

People trying to gear up, alts and new people, fast would also buy your chestpiece. It's not wildly lucrative that's for sure and crafting skills could use some love but I really don't feel like it's broken, or even obsolete.

 

I don't know everything that is available on vendors in terms of gear, but so far what I've seen crafting is better for PVE than your basic easily attainable gear.

 

*edit*

Plus, another group of people who would buy your gear are people who are filling out missing pieces from their sets. PvPers who have bad luck, and raiders who aren't getting their drops.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Scoobings

[Erliandur]

I think you overestimate the long term potential, I'll use rift as my example, in 5 months from the game coming out, all of the T1 gear that dropped from the greenscale raid(first raid instance) was rotting because the new gear, that came out with in 5 months put it to shame and we could 10 man this 20 man raid instance. So if this MMO is like all to date post-WOW they will just add in new gear within 6months that shatters all the rest, without raising the level cap making alot of the crafters gear even more pointless

 

That you could 10-man GSB with your 100% outfitted HK BiS gear is inconsequential because none of them will ever be your buyer and they belong to a 0.1% of the MMO population. It also indicate you belong to a static group that never get new members who actually need gear.

 

I spent my last 4-5 months raiding in Rift, in a very successful raid guild, and the GSB tier gear is absolutely necessary for anyone who want to take a look in HK or the new RotP... in fact, none of the T1 raid gear is obsolete for budding T2 raiders. The few craft pieces introduced (was it in 1.3 or 1.4?) with entry-raiding stats has also been constantly useful and is the best anyone ever have been able to craft in Rift. I find swtor crafting much more fun and seemingly much more useful.

 

It is also important to note that everyone is motivated by different aspects of an MMO, and it exist a large fraction of people who has no interest in PvP so they will never have access to the PvP gear. Also many who never raid and they will want to buy what you can offer them, and think about all the alts raiders will have for gathering resources... sell stuff to them.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Erliandur

[michaelra]

I actually ditched my level 70 Synthweaving last night because of this.. I found that I'd rather buy them from GTN than wasting so much hours and credits to craft one (not to mention having to get the schematic)

 

 

This of course, assumes you have the money to buy

[Perj]

Okay but you have to see the point I'm making in the post,the only purple recipe worth making for that Chest is the "tank" version of purple which if you harvested everything yourself in essence would take you 100+ hours and over a million credits to get,but no tank is gonna buy a purple chest that is +11 def +20 shield rating better than the pvp gear they can easily attain and with out spending any credits on, so the investment I made to get that piece of gear,just like any of the other purples goes to complete waste. It litterly is pissing money and time away, I will never see a million credit return on that chest piece, nor would I see it on any other item I could craft and take the time to break down to get the best purple schematic for it.

 

I see your point. I am a crafter myself. And I agree that the balance between investment and gain is not good. It takes too much effort to get the highest level purple recipes. The balance is good at lower level though but scaling is perhaps too steep.

 

Still, how can you be so sure that you will never be able to make a profit? The game is barely 3 weeks old and people didn't have much time to get to 50 or make credits. New players start and need to catch up in gear. Many use crafted gear to skip content and directly start raiding. There is usually a market for crafted gear at the right price, even if crafted gear isn't any better than PvP/quested PvE gear. Getting a purple recipe is a long term investment and if I sell 10 at 1/10th of the cost over the course of 6 months it is still possible to make a profit even if the initial investment was high. Since purple recipes are so difficult to get, one is probably one of just a handful of crafters who can craft it. At least this is my experience on my server.

 

How did the developers intend to balance crafted gear with gear gear from PVE/PvP or raiding? In my opinion, even as a crafter, crafted gear should never be better than quested gear, it should be on par. It should always be worse than the highest tier raid gear unless the crafted gear requires raid drops. Crafting should allow players to skip content but not replace it. Crafted should be exclusive, should be a big money and time sink short term and a moderate money maker long term.

 

If crafting is too easy, then too many have a recipe and too much competition reduces the prices, if it is too hard, nobody can afford the price. It is a difficult balancing act. Personally, I craft for fun, to gear alts, to gear guild members who need to catch up, and to sell, in that order. Blue recipes are fairly easy to get and are fine for that purpose. Purple is the icing on the cake.