My Proposal to fix slicing and crafting as a whole (Just the facts)

[Zennshi]

Bumping.

[Zennshi]

Bumping.

[Zennshi]

Bumping,

[_Flin_]

To fix crafting several things are needed:

 

- remove supply from the game side (vendors)

You get drowned in gear. Everywhere you go you get gear. Not only from quests, but from commendation vendors as well. Plus Force vendors. Plus PvP vendors. Plus Flashpoints. There is no need for crafting, except for pretty orange items. But orange items only get you so far.

 

- enable crafters to make high level gear (level 58)

You can't craft gear on par with operations.

You can't craft gear on par with PvP.

You can't craft mods to put into orange items to get items comparable to high level gear, but in your own style (even worse, you just BUY items better than anything craftable at Ilum).

Enabling crafting to make high level gear will provide fun for many people. And as long as it needs as much devotion as high level operations or PvP, nothing is wrong. The PvPers or Raiders can wear their special outfits, but they can choose more stylish approaches as well, by using the crafting community.

If this is not wanted, give us Items that are on par with PvP gear, but with crafting bonuses instead of competence.

 

- Fix the GTN. Or just let us access it from wherever we want to. Faster than light communication, you know. Postal droids, you know.

 

- show some creativity.

Give us schematics than can be used three times.

Give us crafting dailies.

Use soulbound, or legacybound crafting materials, so you have to earn the right to craft this one item yourself.

 

I really liked the crafting system in the beginning, especially the orange items and modifications part. Going on a raid with the look of your choice? How great is that? Turns out it was just marketing babble.

[Vandarix]

They nerfed slicing b/c you could level it to 400 in a day on an alt sending out 2 companions.

Ppl had max characters slicing at a time. I agree with the nerf and I still think it should be nerfed more.

[Tewnam]

The only problem with this is that price gouging isn't inflation. Inflation is a stable rise of prices, not people trying to continue selling at the prices they were.

 

You lose money when you auction things that don't sell. If people are trying to auction things and they don't sell, they lose money.

 

Less money being made = less money being spent.

 

I really don't know why more people don't understand this.

 

There is some guy on my argument thread whose sole argument is basically "UR JUST MAD WE GOTS PAID BEFORE THE NERF HURHURHURHUR UMADBRO"

 

When the guy didn't even read anything and just ran his mouth. That is the kind of idiocy I want to avoid, but the trolls keep at it even though I have already address the issues time and time again :*(

 

It is like they aren't happy unless they get to ask the question and get my attention!

 

What money do you lose when you auction something and it doesn't sell? Pretty sure I've not lost any.

[Lagu]

Why do I get the feeling everyone saying agreeing with the Slicing nerf, should always follow their statements with "now you're as bad as the rest of us". Shouldn't we be trying to improve the other crew skills instead?

[_Flin_]

Why do I get the feeling everyone saying agreeing with the Slicing nerf, should always follow their statements with "now you're as bad as the rest of us". Shouldn't we be trying to improve the other crew skills instead?

 

Yes, indeed. However, Slicing is still great at what it is supposed to be: Making credits. My Alt with slicing has his companions constantly on missions. And is constantly making money off it. With no effort at all. So it is really hard to pity people complaining about not being Scrooge McDuck anymore.

[joeislove]

What money do you lose when you auction something and it doesn't sell? Pretty sure I've not lost any.

 

You pay a deposit when you list the item. If it doesn't sell, you lose the deposit.

 

The house always wins.

[Tewnam]

You pay a deposit when you list the item. If it doesn't sell, you lose the deposit.

 

The house always wins.

 

Every item that I've posted that didn't sell included the deposit attached to the mail when the item is returned.

[DarthTHC]

I agree Rich missions generally are the best bang for your buck, but your results from tracking have been no where NEAR what mine have been, though I've only tracked about 300 total so far. Your numbers are much higher. I can't see my numbers coming near yours, which tells me that the RNG can make things very imbalanced/skewed.

 

I'm curious though, how long did it take you to run those 500 missions?

 

I ran 500 missions across 4 or 5 characters with varying levels of slicing and varying numbers of crew to run them. It took less than a week, possibly as little as 4 days. But during that time I was off work and bored so I spent a lot of time in SWTOR.

 

It may be interesting to note that Slicing isn't a Mission skill; it's a Gathering skill. Missions within gathering skills seem to be balanced to have less than stellar results as compared with gathering using the same skill.

 

More detailed results:

 

• Rank 1: 6 missions, -595 credits, -99 credits/mission
  
• Rank 2: 49 missions, +575 credits, +12 credits/mission
  
• Rank 3: 79 missions, +8,311 credits, +105 credits/mission
  
• Rank 4: 126 missions, +28,332 credits, +225 credits/mission
  
• Rank 5: 164 missions, +76,605 credits, +467 credits/mission
  
• Rank 6: 76 missions, +16,095 credits, +212 credits/mission
  
• All Ranks, Rich & Bountiful only: 206 missions, +71,012 credits, +345 credits/mission
  
• Rank 3+ Rich & Bountiful: 178 missions, +71,114 credits, +400 credits/mission
  
• Rank 4+ Rich & Bountiful: 135 missions, +65,704 credits, +487 credits/mission
  
• Rank 5 Rich & Bountiful: 95 missions, +59,192 credits, +623 credits/mission
  
• Across all missions I also got a combined 66 augments, schematics, and crafting missions, some of which I ran, some of which I sold via GTN, and some of which have no apparent value
  

[DarthTHC]

You pay a deposit when you list the item. If it doesn't sell, you lose the deposit.

 

The house always wins.

 

This is 100% false. If the item doesn't sell you get the entire deposit back. If the item sells, you get the deposit minus the commission back.

[ademnus]

here's my 2 issues with it.

 

1) if slicing can earn rather than lose, why can't, say, treasure hunting? As it stands the lockboxes you bring in with TH lose money, no gain. Why should slicers be singled out for profit?

 

2) what's to stop gold farming companies from mass-producing credits with armies of slicers? This will damage the economy irreparably.

[uniz]

nothing is wrong with crafting in this game. most of you like the op are really clueless on how good crafting is for leveling and gearing your companions. some crafting skills are less useful while others are more so but that is normal in these games.

 

slicing isnt the godsend people make it out to be nor is the nerf the end all of its usefulness. what people dont understand that to be good at it one MUST raise your companions affection. this cost credits. also leveling it up costs credits too. my guildy was bragging about how much he made slicing and i asked him to write down how much he made and he spent in a hour doing so. when he got done it wasnt that impressive. slicing is good when you are out in the world getting nodes but now since everyone is doing it even finding one is a chore.

 

back to the other tradeskills

 

DO YOU GEAR UP YOUR COMPANIONS? more than likely i say no. I play a few toons in this game and when i run around i look and see how many hitpoints other players and thier companions have. most are really LOW. people then complain about how hard content is or this or that quest. sometimes i go and help only to see said person with really low hitpoints on thier companion and it is the first one they got 10-20 levels ago. then this person hits every slicing node in sight. omg dude what are you spending your credits on!

 

not everything you need can be bought by ingame venders. taking these out is mindless gibberish nonsense. there is no need to have charged recipes either. recipes are hard enough to get let alone making them have limited uses. other games done this and it failed. i can tell you right now what to make and sell if you are a crafter in this game simply because when i go and try to buy it there are NONE. but then I GEAR UP MY COMPANIONS.

 

TO THE OP

 

stop writing a book when you make a post. most people who see it will simply skip over it and go on. stop bumping it. if people care, agree or disagree the post will stay on top.

stop trying to make this game like others you have played. it makes you sound like a wowtard. finally bioware has enough NON WORKING stuff to fix with out listening to a wowtard complaining about stuff that is working. for godsake the game has been out less than a month and you want to revamp crafting. something is just plain wrong here and it is YOU.

[Zennshi]

here's my 2 issues with it.

 

1) if slicing can earn rather than lose, why can't, say, treasure hunting? As it stands the lockboxes you bring in with TH lose money, no gain. Why should slicers be singled out for profit?

 

2) what's to stop gold farming companies from mass-producing credits with armies of slicers? This will damage the economy irreparably.

 

I have already answered this question before in another thread but it is lost forever. The idea with treasure hunting isn't to bring in credits, slicing is. Easy as that.

 

Please tell me in what MMO outside of ones like Lineage have gold farmers even bothered with crafting? They play the Auction House, yes, but they don't craft.

 

Gold farmers get their money via phishing for accounts (ever got those emails saying your account was compromised when you haven't subbed for over a year?) or bot grinding.

 

The reason for the bot grinding over crew skills is simple - it is much easier to control an army of bots than something as dynamic as crew skills. One person can monitor 20 accounts worth of grinding bots. It would take one person to keep up with all those slicing missions to be effective. That is the difference.

[Zennshi]

nothing is wrong with crafting in this game. most of you like the op are really clueless on how good crafting is for leveling and gearing your companions. some crafting skills are less useful while others are more so but that is normal in these games.

 

Oh yes, so let the useless crew skills stay useless. I think you are due to get sheered from farmer bioware.

 

 

 

slicing isnt the godsend people make it out to be nor is the nerf the end all of its usefulness. what people dont understand that to be good at it one MUST raise your companions affection. this cost credits. also leveling it up costs credits too. my guildy was bragging about how much he made slicing and i asked him to write down how much he made and he spent in a hour doing so. when he got done it wasnt that impressive. slicing is good when you are out in the world getting nodes but now since everyone is doing it even finding one is a chore.

 

........ Slicing is, by design, meant to earn you credits. You give an anecdote and expect me to yield to your superior knowledge because you tell me you know better than me? LOL

 

 

back to the other tradeskills

 

DO YOU GEAR UP YOUR COMPANIONS? more than likely i say no. I play a few toons in this game and when i run around i look and see how many hitpoints other players and thier companions have. most are really LOW. people then complain about how hard content is or this or that quest. sometimes i go and help only to see said person with really low hitpoints on thier companion and it is the first one they got 10-20 levels ago. then this person hits every slicing node in sight. omg dude what are you spending your credits on!

 

Are you even trying to make an argument? If you want to complain or type up a wall of nothing, do it on the other post, this is why I separated them. You aren't discussing my ideas, and why they are good or bad. You are discussing... I don't even know. How you feel about the slicing nerf? This tells me you did not read past the first paragraph.

 

 

not everything you need can be bought by ingame venders. taking these out is mindless gibberish nonsense. there is no need to have charged recipes either. recipes are hard enough to get let alone making them have limited uses. other games done this and it failed. i can tell you right now what to make and sell if you are a crafter in this game simply because when i go and try to buy it there are NONE. but then I GEAR UP MY COMPANIONS.

 

What do your companions have to do with anything? You made no case whatsoever about getting rid of the vendors that are screwing over crafting skills. Then you go on to rave about crafting recipes?

 

 

TO THE OP

 

stop writing a book when you make a post. most people who see it will simply skip over it and go on. stop bumping it. if people care, agree or disagree the post will stay on top.

stop trying to make this game like others you have played. it makes you sound like a wowtard. finally bioware has enough NON WORKING stuff to fix with out listening to a wowtard complaining about stuff that is working. for godsake the game has been out less than a month and you want to revamp crafting. something is just plain wrong here and it is YOU.

 

Let me go ahead and say this as nicely as I can.

 

I will do what I please. If bioware has a problem, they will stop me. If they don't then I am just as entitled to saying my piece as you are. If you don't like it, don't look at it. I will bump as I please. I do not expect these ideas to be a quick yes or no, because it isn't a simple yes or no solution, it is a dynamic and complex solution that many of you probably won't be able to take in all at once.

 

The funny part is, I am not trying to make this game like the others. I cannot make this game anything that bioware doesn't want, because it isn't my game to change. You can call me names all you want, but even within your argument of "ur a wowtard" let me enlighten you. I despise WoW, I hate what it has become. I don't want this game to be like WoW, and right now, this game is shifting toward that end. The crew skills are a bust, the vendors destroy the need for 90% of the things crafters can make. There is no end game for crafting outside of biochem. This is not a functional system, and if I need to spell out why, then you aren't worth talking to because you won't listen anyway.

 

Do you want to know what the problem with any MMO is? The disconnect between a customer and the provider of services.

 

If you are happy with the game, then why are you here?

 

 

Bioware doesn't need you to protect it, it frankly cares as much about you as it does about me. If you don't care what they do, then take a backseat and let the ones who care give their opinions.

 

 

Try and stop me from keeping this thread going, if you didn't check the original thread, it has 5 stars and a lot of views. Someone must think these are ideas worth putting forward.

[Zennshi]

Why do I get the feeling everyone saying agreeing with the Slicing nerf, should always follow their statements with "now you're as bad as the rest of us". Shouldn't we be trying to improve the other crew skills instead?

 

It is funny you mention that. Look at all of the calls for nerfs to biochem, then all the biochems saying "NO NO PLEASE JUST BUFF THE OTHER SKILLS, LEAVE OUR INCOME ALONE"

 

lol.

[Zennshi]

What money do you lose when you auction something and it doesn't sell? Pretty sure I've not lost any.

 

Ah true enough, I found this out last night when I finally used the GTN.

 

The rest of my statement stands though.

[Zennshi]

This is 100% false. If the item doesn't sell you get the entire deposit back. If the item sells, you get the deposit minus the commission back.

 

Yes yes yes, I was under the impression it didn't work like that, you only lose money when you pull the auction off, which is sort of weird, but I guess they will do what they want.

 

Wait... the deposit minus the commission?

Edited January 5, 2012 by Zennshi

[Zennshi]

Can someone clarify ^ this

[DrElJefeMD]

The only problem with this is that price gouging isn't inflation. Inflation is a stable rise of prices, not people trying to continue selling at the prices they were.

 

You lose money when you auction things that don't sell. If people are trying to auction things and they don't sell, they lose money.

 

Less money being made = less money being spent.

 

I really don't know why more people don't understand this.

 

There is some guy on my argument thread whose sole argument is basically "UR JUST MAD WE GOTS PAID BEFORE THE NERF HURHURHURHUR UMADBRO"

 

When the guy didn't even read anything and just ran his mouth. That is the kind of idiocy I want to avoid, but the trolls keep at it even though I have already address the issues time and time again :*(

 

It is like they aren't happy unless they get to ask the question and get my attention!

 

Sorry, but your lack of understanding of economics is showing. A general rise in price levels is the effect of inflation. Inflation is when the supply of money is greater than the supply of general goods and services offered by an economy. Inflation could be just as effected by the supply of goods and services coming into the economy as a change in payout for slicing missions (or any mission payouts for that matter). The reverse is true for deflation. There, more goods and services are produced in relation to the supply of money. Thus, you don't need a decline in slicing profits for deflation to occur, you only need the increase in the amount of goods or services produced to increase faster than the amount of slicing income coming into the economy.

 

If you need any more assistance in how economics works, please let me know

[Zennshi]

Sorry, but your lack of understanding of economics is showing. A general rise in price levels is the effect of inflation. Inflation is when the supply of money is greater than the supply of general goods and services offered by an economy. Inflation could be just as effected by the supply of goods and services coming into the economy as a change in payout for slicing missions (or any mission payouts for that matter). The reverse is true for deflation. There, more goods and services are produced in relation to the supply of money. Thus, you don't need a decline in slicing profits for deflation to occur, you only need the increase in the amount of goods or services produced to increase faster than the amount of slicing income coming into the economy.

 

If you need any more assistance in how economics works, please let me know

 

??? I don't believe I said that inflation was only that, I said that price gouging isn't inflation. Which what you are seeing obviously isn't significant inflation.

 

By the way, you didn't mention anything about demand whatsoever, which is sort of a large part of inflation. If I need to explain this, I think you should withdraw your statements.

 

By the way, you make zero sense.

 

Seriously, you are throwing words and ideas around that are incomplete and outright wrong.

[Ossirian]

Took some inspiration from various threads along with my own thoughts and came up with a list of suggestions to overhaul the crafting/reverse engineering end of things. Tell me what you think Zennshi.

 

 

Overhaul Re-engineering

 

Make sure all non-trash/mission items have a material value

 

Research Bar: add a secondary progression method to stem bad luck streaks(a cumulative chance increase on failures, 1% on [Premium], 5% on [Prototype], 10% on *[Artifact]*), tracked on a per schematic basis

 

*Reverse Engineering [Artifacts]*

 

• Mods: grants access to next tier [Premium] quality mod schematic(endgame schematics)
  
• Consumables(medpacs, grenades**, etc.): current [Artifact] quality items become advanced boe's, new [Legendary] reusable bop versions added with shorter cooldowns, can only be obtained through reverse engineering
  
• Armor and primary weapons: chance at schematic for [Custom] version of item with same model
  

 

 

Increase the Usefulness of Crafting

 

Redistribute Item Types to make every crafting skill useful/profitable

 

Spread schematics from each crafting aspect of the game across the crafting skills (mod system ,gear, ship customization), trying to redistribute them in a logically consistent manner

 

• Artifice: light sabers, hilts, crystals, focii, relics
  
• Armstech: primary weapons, off hand weapons, barrels, ship missle magazines
  
• Armormech: heavy and medium(tech) armors, armoring mods, ship armor
  
• Synthweaving: light and medium(force)armors, enhancements, future option for ship interior decorations/furniture
  
• Cybertech: droid parts, mods, ear pieces, shield generators, ship electronics(shield and beam regen), grenades
  
• Biochem: implants, adrenals, medpacs, power generators
  

 

 

Eliminate [Custom] quality gear and [Prototype] quality mods from vendors and mission rewards

 

Change mission reward [Custom] gear to [Premium]

 

• Only comes with [Premium] mods
  
• Can only equip mods within a set 6 level range for that item
  

 

 

Change flashpoint loot [Custom] gear to [Prototype]

 

• Only comes with [Prototype] mods
  
• Can only equip mods within a set 12 level range for that item
  

 

 

Lock all mods given with these items to prevent removal

 

Remove all vendor mods and replace with material boxes

 

• [Premium] - scavenging, archeology, and bioanalysis mats; 2 commendations
  
• [Prototype] - underworld trading, diplomacy, investigation, and treasure hunting materials; 8 commendations
  

 

 

Allow [Custom] crafted items to Crit and Modify Ops/Warzone gear to retain value

 

Giving crafted [Custom] items a chance at an Augment slot increases repeat buisness for crafters and plays in to...

 

Shift the the set bonuses from Operations and Warzone gear sets onto unique augments that can only be obtained from these armors, the augments can then be removed and placed in that player's augmented armor of choice

 

**Grenades would be brought inline with the design of adrenals and medpacs, multiple types with 3 quality levels of BoE products and multiple tiers

 

Edit: I'm a Cybertech so try to notice that I made an effort to balance the redistribution of crafted items fairly based on how many each player needs and how powerful each tends to be.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Ossirian

[Zennshi]

Took some inspiration from various threads along with my own thoughts and came up with a list of suggestions to overhaul the crafting/reverse engineering end of things. Tell me what you think Zennshi.

 

 

Overhaul Re-engineering

 

Make sure all non-trash/mission items have a material value

 

Research Bar: add a secondary progression method to stem bad luck streaks(a cumulative chance increase on failures, 1% on [Premium], 5% on [Prototype], 10% on *[Artifact]*), tracked on a per schematic basis

 

*Reverse Engineering [Artifacts]*

• Mods: grants access to next tier [Premium] quality mod schematic(endgame schematics)
  
• Consumables(medpacs, grenades**, etc.): current [Artifact] quality items become advanced boe's, new [Legendary] reusable bop versions added with shorter cooldowns, can only be obtained through reverse engineering
  
• Armor and primary weapons: chance at schematic for [Custom] version of item with same model
  

 

Increase the Usefulness of Crafting

 

Redistribute Item Types to make every crafting skill useful/profitable

 

Spread schematics from each crafting aspect of the game across the crafting skills (mod system ,gear, ship customization), trying to redistribute them in a logically consistent manner

• Artifice: light sabers, hilts, crystals, focii, relics
  
• Armstech: primary weapons, off hand weapons, barrels, ship missle magazines
  
• Armormech: heavy and medium(tech) armors, armoring mods, ship armor
  
• Synthweaving: light and medium(force)armors, enhancements, future option for ship interior decorations/furniture
  
• Cybertech: droid parts, mods, ear pieces, shield generators, ship electronics(shield and beam regen), grenades
  
• Biochem: implants, adrenals, medpacs, power generators
  

 

Eliminate [Custom] quality gear and [Prototype] quality mods from vendors and mission rewards

 

Change mission reward [Custom] gear to [Premium]

• Only comes with [Premium] mods
  
• Can only equip mods within a set 6 level range for that item
  

 

Change flashpoint loot [Custom] gear to [Prototype]

• Only comes with [Prototype] mods
  
• Can only equip mods within a set 12 level range for that item
  

 

Lock all mods given with these items to prevent removal

 

Remove all vendor mods and replace with material boxes

• [Premium] - scavenging, archeology, and bioanalysis mats; 2 commendations
  
• [Prototype] - underworld trading, diplomacy, investigation, and treasure hunting materials; 8 commendations
  

 

Allow [Custom] crafted items to Crit and Modify Ops/Warzone gear to retain value

 

Giving crafted [Custom] items a chance at an Augment slot increases repeat buisness for crafters and plays in to...

 

Shift the the set bonuses from Operations and Warzone gear sets onto unique augments that can only be obtained from these armors, the augments can then be removed and placed in that player's augmented armor of choice

 

**Grenades would be brought inline with the design of adrenals and medpacs, multiple types with 3 quality levels of BoE products and multiple tiers

 

Edit: I'm a Cybertech so try to notice that I made an effort to balance the redistribution of crafted items fairly based on how many each player needs and how powerful each tends to be.

 

Hmm.. I want to start by saying that maybe an overhaul isn't what is needed, it would make the inter-connectivity of the crew skills higher thus making it harder to be self sufficient, which is what actual communities and economies thrive on. However those sorts of changes would probably cause an uprising as people who already leveled it would feel cheated.

 

It is an option though, no denying that. Just at this point it might be a bit late...

 

So.. the idea is that instead of being victim to the RNG it should be a set %.. well. While I do admit the RNG sucks and is cruel. I don't think we should be expected to get what we want. Pvp grinds for their gear, simple as that. Raider hope their gear drops. I think crafters should be subject to some form of aggrivation as bad as that sound.

 

I do think they need to get rid of the massive amount of custom gear and of course get rid of those mod vendors. It is choking out any chances of making any money from those professions. I would like to see vendors only selling low quality mods, or just remove them, but this idea works too.

 

I am not sure where I stand on custom gear because it is roughly = to the pain of replacing blue items per levels, except that you can buy new mods for it every 2.... which goes really far. I think crafters should be able to make 'better' custom armor, and have the level recipe determine how many augment slots become available.

 

I am not sure what locking the mods will do exactly.. they are bound IIRC. I don't see why you should even be allowed to take them out in the first place. /shrug, not really sure what the pros and cons are, I haven't really given it thought to be honest.

 

Hey, now THAT would be a good idea. Material boxes so I actually have something to use these worthless commendations on . That doesn't sound like a bad idea at all!

 

I think the best way to balance would be to look into augmentation slots, because right now the augment market is horrible and largely useless!

[Purlana]

here's my 2 issues with it.

 

1) if slicing can earn rather than lose, why can't, say, treasure hunting? As it stands the lockboxes you bring in with TH lose money, no gain. Why should slicers be singled out for profit?

 

2) what's to stop gold farming companies from mass-producing credits with armies of slicers? This will damage the economy irreparably.

 

1) What if you had to pay your companion 2 rare materials and constantly got back 1 rare material (of the exact same type) in return? That's what slicing is if it doesn't provide a gain...

 

2) What's to stop an army of gold farming companies from farming daily space missions, and PvE mobs?

Edited January 6, 2012 by Purlana